The truth about 1975

[NonTrinitarian]

There has been a great deal of mis-information on what JW’s have said regarding 1975. Each of these quotes are right from JW publications, not from an apostate website that likes to leave out information damaging to their cause…which is to mislead the public about JW’s.



First off, JW’s acknowledge that it was not God’s Word that failed in 1975, rather it was the misunderstanding of JW’s. At the same time, it was clearly and repeatedly shown that 1975 was not a definite thing. Thus, far from being a false prophet, JW’s were merely speculating what could be. And they reminded the brothers in every article on 1975 that it was not a definite thing and reminded them of Jesus’ words at Matt 24:36. Thus, those who say JW’s acted like a prophet in 1975 are clearly wrong. Prophets in Biblical sense of the word didn’t go around saying ‘it might happen’ or ‘it could happen’ which is all JW’s ever said. Note this comment from the 3/15/80 WT



*** w80 3/15 pp. 17-18 Choosing the Best Way of Life ***

5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.(italics was theres)

As you can see, the writers of the Watchtower magazine admitted that even though they never said 1975 was going to be the end, and that they stressed that in the articles, they may have stressed the probability of it too much and admitted their error. But as you will see below, I am not even convinced that what they said about it was too much stressed because, again, they gave cautionary statements in every article about not putting too much faith in 1975

As an example of the cautionary statements JW’s made about 1975, please not the following:



*** jv chap. 8 p. 104 Declaring the Good News Without Letup (1942-1975) ***

“Say, What Does This 1975 Mean?”

The Witnesses had long shared the belief that the Thousand Year Reign of Christ would follow after 6,000 years of human history. But when would 6,000 years of human existence end? The book Life Everlasting—In Freedom of the Sons of God, released at a series of district conventions held in 1966, pointed to 1975. Right at the convention, as the brothers examined the contents, the new book triggered much discussion about 1975.

At the convention held in Baltimore, Maryland, F. W. Franz gave the concluding talk. He began by saying: “Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘Say, what does this 1975 mean?’” Brother Franz then referred to the many questions that had arisen as to whether the material in the new book meant that by 1975 Armageddon would be finished, and Satan would be bound. He stated, in essence: ‘It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.’

Thus, it is pretty obvious that not only was the official word from JW’s that they were NOT saying 1975 was the year of armegeddon, they even told all of JW’s to not be saying anything like that. As far as the phrase ‘time is short, time is running out’, I challenge anyone to find a WT magazine to day that doesn’t say the same thought. In every magazine we are reminded that time is running out. And it is. So that phrase has nothing to do with 1975.

Another quote clearly showing the exaggeration of opposers of JW’s



*** w68 5/1 pp. 272-273 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***

Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows.” (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God’s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one’s salvation!

Again we see the cautionary remarks by JW’s that no one was to say 1975 was THE year. Rather, they were reminded, like we are constantly reminded today, that there is limited time remaining.



*** w74 6/15 pp. 378-379 Serve with Eternity in View ***

18 And it is the same today among true Christians who realize from the fulfillment of Bible prophecy that the end of this entire wicked system of things is near at hand. True, the most accurate Bible chronology available indicates that 6,000 years of human existence will end in the mid-1970’s. So these Christians are intensely interested to see if that will coincide with the outbreak of the “great tribulation” of our day that will eliminate all wicked ones on earth. It could. But they are not even attempting to predict exactly when the destruction of Satan’s wicked system of things will occur. They are content to wait and see, realizing that no human on earth knows the date.—Matt. 24:36.



Again, we can see how far exaggerating apostates have made their case regarding 1975. It should be clear to all that JW’s were NOT saying Armeggedon was going to happen at 1975. Those who built their faith in that year were doing selective reading. They’d hold on to the word “could”, apparently confusing it with the word “will”, and disregarded the repeated warnings not to be so certain about it. The articles kept reminding us about Jesus words at Matt 24:36 and unfortunately, many chose to ignore Jesus’ words though the Watchtower did not.



Now one Twebber quoted a KM about 1975 and people selling their homes, etc. This person obviously does NOT HAVE the KM or they wouldn’t have even bothered quoting it. Probably got it out of Ron Rhodes book or an anti-JW website. (Ughhh!) Here is the quote in question. This article came out in 1974.



*** km 5/74 p. 3 How Are You Using Your Life? ***

By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.

Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.—1 John 2:17.



Here is the problem with this quote being used in the 1975 argument. The article doesn’t even mention the year 1975! This article isn’t about 1975, it’s about pioneering. We get articles like this one about twice a year, talking about us making sacrifices in our lives to be able to spend more time in the ministry. The phrase about a short time remaining is, again, repeated in just about every KM there is, including this months (12/05)! The part about persons selling their homes or getting smaller ones is not unique to 1975. We still get articles that talk about how pioneers have sold their big homes or cut back in their material possessions, quit working full-time and spend more time in the ministry. The whole article was about spending more time in serving Jehovah and we continue to get articles about this with experiences of those who have simplified their lives to serve God. And since 1975 has already passed, it obviously has nothing to do with 1975. Indeed, the year 1975 doesn’t even appear in this article and they don’t even mention the 6000 years of mankinds existence or anything that has anything to do with 1975. Quite frankly, Ron Rhodes, who I believe originally touted this KM quote, is clearly a liar with an agenda.


One final quote about 1975 from an article entitled “Why are you looking forward to 1975?”



*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***

This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!



So I think it’s pretty obvious what JW’s did and didn’t say about 1975. For the anti-JW’s here, this probably won’t make much difference to them. Frankly, I could care less. But for those who really want to know what JW’s said about 1975, here it is. By adding up the dates in the Bible, it appears (assuming all the numbers in the Bible are correct) that man has been on earth about 6000 years which may have ended in 1975. JW’s speculated that this would be a fitting time for Armegeddon to come but clearly and repeatedly denied being certain of it and repeatedly warned all JW’s to NOT put their faith in that year and NOT go around telling people 1975 was the end of the world. Unfortunately some JW’s chose to grab on to 1975 and ignored the warnings about not putting to much faith in it.

[furay]

Weasels.

[Sparko]

LOL. the Watchtower raises false hopes about Christ coming in various years like 1925, 1975 and other years, and when the faitful JW's actually take them at their words and it fails, what does the Watchtower do? Admit fault? Of course not! Blame the faithful for misunderstanding what they 'really' meant!

I need a barf smilie here.

The "cautious" wording where the Watchtower said things like "it could" be 1975 and such was not meant to mean that the end was NOT going to happen in 1975 but merely to hedge their bets a bit in case it happened a bit early or late (maybe 1976?)

Around 1972-1975 the whole JW community was buzzing with 1975 Fever and nobody was trying to be the voice of reason to say "hey it might not be 1975, it could be 2075 for all we know" - no. The watchtower kept writing more and more articles about 1975, there were conventions with keynote speakers from such people as Nathan Knorr.


And non-trin totally ignores the quotes that I gave him where they not only said 1975 but actually claimed it would be in the FALL of 1975.

According to the Bible timetable, man's history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve. There are, therefore, a thousand years left to run. Without Satan and his demons to disturb mankind it will indeed be a restful time. It will be like a sabbath.
Watchtower 7/15/67 pg.446-7

Keep dodging non-trin. The problem with running a cult based on magazine subscriptions is that their wackyness and false prophesies are right there in black and white for all to see forever. That doesn't stop them from trying to cover their tracks, but it makes it impossible for them to do so for anyone who has the gumption to actually go back and read the back issues.

www.jwfiles.com (http://www.jwfiles.com) has a ton of actual SCANNED images from past watchtowers showing the 1975 fiasco and many other false prophesies from the watchtower. Why not go there and do some research?


If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. .....all evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. ....as a young person you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone! Awake,5/22/69,pg15
SCAN (http://www.jwfiles.com/scans/AW5-22-69p15.htm)
The Watchtower Society actually encourages its young people to NOT plan for a future. Why go to college if you never have a career. It just wants to keep its members dumb and stupid and was afraid that educated JWs would defect.

[NonTrinitarian]

LOL. the Watchtower raises false hopes about Christ coming in various years like 1925, 1975 and other years, and when the faitful JW's actually take them at their words and it fails, what does the Watchtower do? Admit fault? Of course not! Blame the faithful for misunderstanding what they 'really' meant!

I need a barf smilie here.

The "cautious" wording where the Watchtower said things like "it could" be 1975 and such was not meant to mean that the end was NOT going to happen in 1975 but merely to hedge their bets a bit in case it happened a bit early or late (maybe 1976?)

Around 1972-1975 the whole JW community was buzzing with 1975 Fever and nobody was trying to be the voice of reason to say "hey it might not be 1975, it could be 2075 for all we know" - no. The watchtower kept writing more and more articles about 1975, there were conventions with keynote speakers from such people as Nathan Knorr.


And non-trin totally ignores the quotes that I gave him where they not only said 1975 but actually claimed it would be in the FALL of 1975.



According to the Bible timetable, man's history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve. There are, therefore, a thousand years left to run. Without Satan and his demons to disturb mankind it will indeed be a restful time. It will be like a sabbath.


Watchtower 7/15/67 pg.446-7


Keep dodging non-trin. The problem with running a cult based on magazine subscriptions is that their wackyness and false prophesies are right there in black and white for all to see forever. That doesn't stop them from trying to cover their tracks, but it makes it impossible for them to do so for anyone who has the gumption to actually go back and read the back issues.



www.jwfiles.com (http://www.jwfiles.com/) has a ton of actual SCANNED images from past watchtowers showing the 1975 fiasco and many other false prophesies from the watchtower. Why not go there and do some research?




If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. .....all evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. ....as a young person you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone! Awake,5/22/69,pg15


SCAN (http://www.jwfiles.com/scans/AW5-22-69p15.htm)


The Watchtower Society actually encourages its young people to NOT plan for a future. Why go to college if you never have a career. It just wants to keep its members dumb and stupid and was afraid that educated JWs would defect.Sparko, either put up or shut up. I've posted quote after quote from JW's about what they REALLY said about 1975. You've posted HEARSEY and two quotes that in no way support your assertions. The funny thing is the Awake magazine of 5/22/69 was basically restated in a WatchTower last month. And, not surprising, NEITHER ONE mentions anything about 1975. Goodness, I can find a WT in just about every year that talks about this stuff. You morons mind an article around that was printed around 1975 or before and claim the statements were made because of 1975 without ever asking yourselves if similar articles were posted since then. Zheeesh! And of course, that article doesn't say anythign about 1975, but you weren't able to discern that, were ya?


The funny thing is I have the July 15, 1967 WT and I don't see anywhere in there anything about 1975 being THE year. In fact, I notice you didn't quote the VERY NEXT SENTENCE after your quote. Care to do so? Because it adds insight into what they were saying. This article in no way says 1975 is IT!

So what we have are numerous article posted that clearly show JWs were NOT saying 1975 was THE year and clearly warning JWs to NOT claim such. (BTW, how do you account for those Einstein?) On the other hand we have Sparko with hearsay about what HE said happened back then and articles that don't support his accusation. This is almost too pathetic to even debate.:ahem:

[Sparko]

Sparko, either put up or shut up. I've posted quote after quote from JW's about what they REALLY said about 1975. You've posted HEARSEY and two quotes that in no way support your assertions. The funny thing is the Awake magazine of 5/22/69 was basically restated in a WatchTower last month. And, not surprising, NEITHER ONE mentions anything about 1975. Goodness, I can find a WT in just about every year that talks about this stuff. You morons mind an article around that was printed around 1975 or before and claim the statements were made because of 1975 without ever asking yourselves if similar articles were posted since then. Zheeesh! And of course, that article doesn't say anythign about 1975, but you weren't able to discern that, were ya?


The funny thing is I have the July 15, 1967 WT and I don't see anywhere in there anything about 1975 being THE year. In fact, I notice you didn't quote the VERY NEXT SENTENCE after your quote. Care to do so? Because it adds insight into what they were saying. This article in no way says 1975 is IT!

So what we have are numerous article posted that clearly show JWs were NOT saying 1975 was THE year and clearly warning JWs to NOT claim such. (BTW, how do you account for those Einstein?) On the other hand we have Sparko with hearsay about what HE said happened back then and articles that don't support his accusation. This is almost too pathetic to even debate.:ahem:

LOL

You conveniently left off the quote where they actually narrowed it down to the FALL of 1975


And you want some actual AUDIO from the time period? Want to actually hear them stirring up the crowds about 1975?

Well here you go:

District Overseer Charles Sunutko 1967 (wav files)

(http://www.freeminds.org/wav/sun1.wav)Why we have a new year of hope... 1975 (http://www.freeminds.org/wav/sun1.wav)

The Watchtower is very explicit as to the meaning of 1975
(http://www.freeminds.org/wav/sun2.wav)
Why you need to be in the Society before 1975 (http://www.freeminds.org/wav/sun6.wav)

Full message (real audio) (http://www.freeminds.org/media/sunutko75.ram)

(more at: http://www.freeminds.org/wav/wav.htm )


---
The watchtower was very specific about 1975. Even when they didnt specifically mention the year in every article (which you use to say they were not claiming that 1975 was the year :lmbo:) they WERE talking about 1975 because that was what the buzz was all about. It was like the Y2K buzz in 1999.

Here are some more quotes for ya:


Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 13-14
"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death. This, of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many. There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have?...Revelation chapter 20, verse 6, shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike res to the earth and all those then inhabiting it...How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years...How can it be determined when 6,000 years of human history will end? According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

The Watchtower, August 15, 1968, p. 494
"WHAT about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam's creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion. But wait! How do we know their calculations are correct? What basis is there for saying Adam was created nearly 5,993 years ago? Does the one Book that can be implicitly trusted for its truthful historical accuracy, namely, the Inspired Word of Jehovah, the Holy Bible, give support and credence to such a conclusion?"

Quite simply here the Watchtower is talking about the year 1975 and what is being said about it. It goes on to say how do we know their calculations are correct? In the following quote of that same magazine they give the evidence for what they believe.


The Watchtower, August 15, 1968, pp. 500-501
"One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man's existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the "day and hour! Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active?

The above was from: http://www.afcministry.com/Jehovahs_Witnesses_1975_quotes_prophesy.htm
(permission to quote the information is given at the bottom of the page:
"All rights reserved. Please feel free to copy and distribute this material.")

[Krusader]

It's very sad that Non-Trinitarian, like most JWs will attempt to rationalize away the false prophetic record of the Watchtower Society. Most cult members are so bound up in their respective belief systems that they are unable to think objectively when it comes to evaluating the group. Please note, that if any of the Christian denominations had pointed to the year 1975 as the completion of 6,000 years of existence culminating in the final battle between the forces of Jehovah and Satan (Armageddon), we would no doubt have read about these "false prophet" religionists month after month in the pages of the WT. However, the same standards are not applied by cultists to their own organization or group as they apply to others.

For instance, any rational, thinking person can see for themselves how this group was promoting 1975 as a significant year. Just look at the following statements of the Society:


1966 "Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. 'The new book compels us to realise that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,' said a conventioneer." (Watchtower 15/10/1966, p 629)

1966 "In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation." (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, p29, 1966 [Note: 4026 BC to 1975AD = 6000 years])

1967 "Just think, 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.' (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

1968 "The immediate future is certain to be filled with climatic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these last days will undergo fulfilment resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ's glorious 1000 year reign!" (Watchtower, 1/5/1968)

1968 Eight years from the Autumn of 1967 would bring us to the Autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God's seventh day, his rest day. (Watchtower May 1, 1968 p. 271)

1968 "Why Are You Looking Forward To 1975?" … "What about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam's creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion." (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494)

1968 "'Adam Created At Close Of 'Sixth Day' Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then ? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the Sabbath-like thousand-year reign of Christ....It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.' (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p499)

1968 "I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in." (Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p 9, 1968 edition, Quoting USA Secretary of State Dean Acheson in 1960, [1981 edition deleted "in fifteen years from today" ie. in 1975])

1968 "More recently, the book entitled "Famine-1975!" said concerning today's food shortages: "Hunger is rampant throughout country after country, continent after continent around the undeveloped belt of the tropics and subtropics. Today's crisis can move in only one direction -toward catastrophe. Today hungry nations; tomorrow starving nations." … "By 1975 civil disorder, anarchy, military dictatorships, runaway inflation, transportation breakdowns and chaotic unrest will be the order of the day in many of the hungry nations." (The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p 88-89, 1968)

1968 "1914 a marked year. Years in advance Bible Scholars realized that 1914 was to be a year of great significance. They expected great changes to take place, and the facts confirm that 1914 was, indeed, a marked year." (The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life; 1968; 40,000,000 ed.; p. 91)

1968 "The Bible speaks of the time in which we are living as the "last days" or the "time of the end." (2 Timothy 3: 1; Daniel 11: 40) The facts show that this is a limited period that has a definite beginning and a definite end. It began in 1914 when Jesus Christ was enthroned as king in the heavens. It will end when God destroys this present wicked system of things. … How soon will that be? God's own Son, Jesus Christ, gives the answer. After drawing attention to the many things that mark the period from 1914 onward as the "time of the end," Jesus said: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (Matthew 24:34) Which generation did he mean? Jesus had just referred to persons who would "see all these things." "These things" are the events that have taken place since 1914 and those yet to occur down to the end of this wicked system. (Matthew 24:33) Persons born even as much as fifty years ago could not see "all these things." They came on the scene after the foretold events were already under way. But there are people still living who were alive in 1914 and saw what was happening then and who were old enough that they still remember those events. This generation is getting up in years now. A great number of them have already passed away in death. Yet Jesus very pointedly said: 'This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' Some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. This means that only a short time is left before the end comes!" (Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p. 94, 1968)

1968 "Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of mans existence on earth is completed... The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more." (Kingdom Ministry, March 1968, p. 4 [note: 1968 + 90 months = 1975])


,"AWAKE!" October 8, 1968, Headline: "Is It Later Than You Think?" "Is Time Running out For This Generation? What Will the 1970's Bring?"

1968 "During world war 1, God's people expected it to lead directly into Armageddon, but Jehovah prevented such a climax at that time. We didn't succumb to such an expectation during world war II. (Kingdom Ministry, Jan. 1968, p. 5)

1968 "But what about today? Today we have the evidence required, all of it. And it is overwhelming! All the many, many parts of the great sign of the last days are here, together with verifying Bible chronology." (Awake!, Oct. 8, 1968, p. 23)

1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)

1969 "in view of the short time left, a decision to pursue a career in this system of things is not only unwise but extremely dangerous....Many young brothers and sisters were offered scholarship or employment that promised fine pay. However, they turned them down and put spiritual interests first." (Kingdom Ministry, June 1969, p. 3)

1969 "There is only a short time left before Jehovah will destroy this wicked system of things." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1969)

1969 More recently earnest researchers of the Holy Bible have made a recheck of its chronology. According to their calculations the six millenniums of mankind's life on earth would end in the mid-seventies. Thus the seventh millennium from mans creation by Jehovah god would begin within less than ten years. Apart from the global change that present-day world condition indicate is fast getting near, the arrival of the seventh millennium of mans existence on earth suggests a gladsome change for war-stricken humankind. ...In order for the Lord Jesus Christ to be Lord even of the Sabbath day, his thousand-year reign would have to be the seventh in a series of thousand-year periods or millenniums. (Matt 12:8, AV) Thus it would be a sabbatic reign. Since early in the existence of mankind Satan the Devil has been on the loose, making the human family to toil in hard bondage, causing the earth to be filled with violence before the global flood of Noahs day and inducing the same old earth to be filled with even greater violence today. Soon now six millenniums of his wicked exploiting of mankind as his slaves will end, within the lifetime of the generation that has witnessed world events since the close of the gentile times in 1914 till now, according to the prophetic words of Jesus in Matthew 24:34. Would not, then, the end of six millenniums of mankind's laborious enslavement under Satan the Devil be the fitting time for Jehovah God to usher in a Sabbath millennium for all his human creatures? Yes, indeed! And his King Jesus Christ will be Lord of that Sabbath." (Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1969, p. 622, 623)

1971 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

1972 "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" (Watchtower April 1, 1972, p. 197)

1972 "Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them [Watchtower] as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes." (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1972, p. 644)

1972 "If it is his purpose to have this beautification of the whole earth accomplished by the end of his seventh creative day - Scripturally a period of seven thousand years, then the time is near at hand for the ruining of the earth by exploiters to be stopped by theocratic power and the blessed transformation to a delightsome garden to begin. Already, nearly six thousand years of man's existence from the close of the sixth creative day have run their dreary course. We must be approaching the threshold of that thousand-year-long reign of Jesus Christ, which must be accompanied by Paradise according to what Jesus promised the sympathetic evildoer on the stake there at Mount Calvary." (Paradise Restored to Mankind - By Theocracy, 1972; p. 18)

1974 "this remnant of anointed ones have identified themselves on the pages of history since 1914 C.E. Before this year members of this anointed remnant had been earnestly studying God's Word apart from Christendom. They put the Holy Bible ahead of man-made religious traditions. As early as 1876 they were publishing that the Gentile Times of 2,520 years would terminate in the year 1914. Events that have taken place from that year onward prove they were not wrong." (God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing For Man's Good; 1974; p. 178-179)

1974 "Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity?...Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." (Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3)

1974 'It also tells us that this millennium must be preceded immediately by the most destructive war in all human history. We can now see the political rulers... being gathered... for that War of all wars....' (Watchtower, July 1, 1974, p 397)


1975 "The year 1925 came and went. Jesus' anointed followers were still on earth as a class. The faithful men of old time - Abraham, David and others - had not been resurrected to become princes in the earth. (Ps. 45:16) So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: '1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed...Instead of it's being considered a 'probability,' they read into it that it was a 'certainty.' and some prepared for their loved ones with expectations of their resurrection." (Yearbook, 1975, p. 146)

1975 In time, a direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Deigo for brother Rutherfords use.. Concerning this property the 1939 book Salvation stated: 'At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim. (Yearbook, 1975, p. 194)

1975 "Does this mean, then, that mankind has now reached 6,000 years into the 7,000 year period that God blessed and made sacred as his rest day? ... No, It does not mean that." (Watchtower 1/10/1975 p. 579)

1975 However, suddenly, there came an end to World War 1. It did not lead on, as Bible students expected, into world revolution and anarchy or the battle of Armageddon. And the sincere worshippers of Jehovah who were in the new covenant with him through his Mediator Jesus Christ, found themselves still in the flesh on the earth. (Man's Salvation Out Of World Distress At Hand; 1975; p. 98)

1975 Furthermore, the remnant of spiritual Israel had for decades, yes, since 1876, been looking forward to the ending of the Times of the Gentiles in the autumn of 1914. They were expecting God's Messianic Kingdom to be fully established in the heavens by then and also for the remnant of spiritual Israel to be glorified with Jesus Christ in the heavenly kingdom at that time. All understanding of the Holy Scriptures was slanted in that direction or adjusted to that idea. And when the year 1914 ended amid the flames of World War 1 and the remnant of spiritual Israel found themselves still here on the earth, then they were inclined to think that they would be glorified in the year 1918, three and a half years after the end of the Gentile Times. (Man's Salvation Out Of World Distress At Hand; 1975; p. 136)

1975 this marked the beginning of a period of education in the written Word of God from the standpoint that Bible prophecy is best understood after it has been fulfilled. So there needed to be a correction of our previous views, and the surviving remnant of spiritual Israel needed to be readjusted to the postwar realities and opportunities. ... This revised program of Bible education had a profound effect on the remnant. It oriented their work in the right direction. (Man's Salvation Out Of World Distress At Hand; 1975; p. 191)

1976 "It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bibles warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date." (Watchtower, July 15, 1976, p. 440)

And, there are many more false prophetic utterances of this so-called organization of Jehovah, which according to its leadership is directed by angels who get their orders directly from the throne-room of Jehovah. Well, there may be angels involved - but obviously of the fallen variety.
If you have read the above WT statements, its easy to see how the Society whipped up the membership with the false expectation that something really big would occur in 1975. They were urged to get out there and knock on doors - service, service, service - because only a short time remained before "the End". And then, when their prophecy failed - just blame it on those poor saps who were out there knocking on doors in order to serve those "wheatlike" and "anointed" leaders who claim they are the only ones in the Society who get to go to heaven....one wonders what would have happened to these false prophets in Old Testament days!

Friends, the Watchtower Society has been a false prophet since their founding father, Russell, began publishing the "Watchtower." It hasn't changed a bit. For those attracted to this "organization," consider the Soceity's statement in one of their early Watchtowers:

1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)

[b]Ummmmmmm! 1874, 1914, 1925, 1975............what's next?

[Armor of God]

I need a barf smilie here.

Here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/pokes2k/36_19_7.gif

Edit: Can outside images be posted in this forum?

[Sparko]

:barf:

[NonTrinitarian]

It's very sad that Non-Trinitarian, like most JWs will attempt to rationalize away the false prophetic record of the Watchtower Society.

THE ONLY thing sad is that Crusader unwittingly posted a bunch of quotes that merely prove my point. Not one of those quotes have JW's saying the end of the world would come in 1975. They say stuff like 'there is a short time left' (Hey Crusader, have you looked at a recent issue of the WT lately? Apparenlty not becuawe that phrase appears all the time!) and that mankinds 6000 year period ends in 1975. But strangley missing from them are statements like '1975 is the year Armegeddon will happen.' Interestingly, what is not missing from this thread are quotes were JWs specifically said that no one should say 1975 is the year because of Jesus' words at Matt 24:36.

And Sparko, poor sap, somehow thinks I was intentionally ignoring the part where they said the 6000 years ended in the fall. What about it Sparko, ole' buddy? How does saying the 6000 years ended in the Fall translate into JW's going and telling everyone 1975 was the end of the world?

What you all have are a bunch of quotes that don't say anything about JW's proclaiming that 1975 was the year for Armeggedon. What I've got are quotes showing they specifically said they would NOT commit to such a statement and told their members to do the same.

I see nothing else to add to this thread. The quotes are posted. Most will probably support you two (like I care) but there will be a few who will read your quotes, read mine, and see who is telling the truth and who is streeetttttcccchhhhhiiiinnnngggg the story in their favor.

adios

[Krusader]

THE ONLY thing sad is that Crusader unwittingly posted a bunch of quotes that merely prove my point. Not one of those quotes have JW's saying the end of the world would come in 1975. They say stuff like 'there is a short time left' (Hey Crusader, have you looked at a recent issue of the WT lately? Apparenlty not becuawe that phrase appears all the time!) and that mankinds 6000 year period ends in 1975. But strangley missing from them are statements like '1975 is the year Armegeddon will happen.' Interestingly, what is not missing from this thread are quotes were JWs specifically said that no one should say 1975 is the year because of Jesus' words at Matt 24:36.

And Sparko, poor sap, somehow thinks I was intentionally ignoring the part where they said the 6000 years ended in the fall. What about it Sparko, ole' buddy? How does saying the 6000 years ended in the Fall translate into JW's going and telling everyone 1975 was the end of the world?

What you all have are a bunch of quotes that don't say anything about JW's proclaiming that 1975 was the year for Armeggedon. What I've got are quotes showing they specifically said they would NOT commit to such a statement and told their members to do the same.

I see nothing else to add to this thread. The quotes are posted. Most will probably support you two (like I care) but there will be a few who will read your quotes, read mine, and see who is telling the truth and who is streeetttttcccchhhhhiiiinnnngggg the story in their favor.

adios

You obviously didn't read the quotes posted - that's because you can't - they come from an apostate's site - so even though they are all quotes from the WT, you can't read them.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Sparko]

sheesh. Just like NonTrinitarian. He starts a thread and then when everyone refutes him and shows him that he is wrong, he goes into denial mode, claims we are ignorant and then runs away.

buh-bye!!! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out NT.

:lmbo:

[Krusader]

sheesh. Just like NonTrinitarian. He starts a thread and then when everyone refutes him and shows him that he is wrong, he goes into denial mode, claims we are ignorant and then runs away.

buh-bye!!! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out NT.

:lmbo:

This is typical cultic behavior. Try inviting the JWs into your home, and begin sharing the Gospel with them......they'll run out of your house so fast, it will make your head spin.

[Sparko]

Yup. Pretty much they do this: :fingersinears:

[Rayado]

THE ONLY thing sad is that Crusader unwittingly posted a bunch of quotes that merely prove my point. Not one of those quotes have JW's saying the end of the world would come in 1975. They say stuff like 'there is a short time left' (Hey Crusader, have you looked at a recent issue of the WT lately? Apparenlty not becuawe that phrase appears all the time!) and that mankinds 6000 year period ends in 1975. But strangley missing from them are statements like '1975 is the year Armegeddon will happen.' Interestingly, what is not missing from this thread are quotes were JWs specifically said that no one should say 1975 is the year because of Jesus' words at Matt 24:36.I think Crusader managed to defeat you on this one:

1967 "Just think, 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.' (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

1968 "The immediate future is certain to be filled with climatic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these last days will undergo fulfilment resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ's glorious 1000 year reign!" (Watchtower, 1/5/1968)


And Sparko, poor sap, somehow thinks I was intentionally ignoring the part where they said the 6000 years ended in the fall. What about it Sparko, ole' buddy? How does saying the 6000 years ended in the Fall translate into JW's going and telling everyone 1975 was the end of the world?Probably because the JW's themselves said so, evidenced by the re-quoted material above.

What you all have are a bunch of quotes that don't say anything about JW's proclaiming that 1975 was the year for Armeggedon.Oh really?
What I've got are quotes showing they specifically said they would NOT commit to such a statement and told their members to do the same.Then their members are rather disobedient, judging from the number of people who thought that it would be in 1975, judging from the quotes and from your own posts in this thread (my apologies, by the way, for not joining until now).

This actually leads to a different problem.

The failed 1975 prophecy highlights a particular problem with 'hedging' prophecy with caution: it becomes purposefully vague. In this case, it was vague, but it also had hype--enough for it to be a rather hot topic during conventions preceeding 1975. But the damage had been done: why should God's Visible Organization have to be so ambiguous and 'cautious' with things as serious as prophecy? We see no such apprehensiveness in the Bible about prophecy: even Jesus' statement in Matthew 24 boldly connects the events of the end of that age with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem--even if no date was supplied, and for good reason.

So we wind up with an organization, claiming to be God's only representative on the planet, that cannot clearly communicate to its adherents or the rest of the world about matters it professes to be competent in.

I see nothing else to add to this thread. The quotes are posted. Most will probably support you two (like I care) but there will be a few who will read your quotes, read mine, and see who is telling the truth and who is streeetttttcccchhhhhiiiinnnngggg the story in their favor.The only real stretching that's going on in this thread is the stretching required to dodge Crusader's quotes and attempt to dismiss them with no good reason.

And really, 1975 is barely a blip on the radar compared to the disastrous attempts at prophesying the end in 1914, 1925, and 1935. By 1975 they'd learned to be a bit more cautious but no more wise in the matter.

[NonTrinitarian]

I'll address the new guy on this thread at least once.

I think Crusader managed to defeat you on this one:

1967 "Just think, 1975 marks the [b]end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.' (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

1968 "The immediate future is certain to be filled with climatic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these last days will undergo fulfilment resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ's glorious 1000 year reign!" (Watchtower, 1/5/1968)

Thanks for bolding the part that you think says JW's said the world would end in 1975. May I just point out to you that the quote actually says the end of 6000 years of human existence was in 1975? Somehow you translated that to the phrase 'the world would end in 1975.':ahem:

Allow me to requote the phrase and do my own bolding.

1967 "Just think, 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.' (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

Do I need to explain the bolded fonts to you?

As far as the last quote, you asume it is in that article because of 1975. Those words still appear in Watchtower magazines. We still believe there are only a few years left and that these are the last days.

Translation for you: Those words don't have anything to do with 1975 as we still say the same thing. :sigh:

Then their members are rather disobedient, judging from the number of people who thought that it would be in 1975, judging from the quotes and from your own posts in this thread (my apologies, by the way, for not joining until now).

You got one right. Those who ignored both the Watchtowers warning about NOT saying the end would occur in 1975 and who also ignored Jesus' words at Matt 24:36 were disobedient.


The failed 1975 prophecy highlights a particular problem with 'hedging' prophecy with caution: it becomes purposefully vague. In this case, it was vague, but it also had hype--enough for it to be a rather hot topic during conventions preceeding 1975. But the damage had been done: why should God's Visible Organization have to be so ambiguous and 'cautious' with things as serious as prophecy? We see no such apprehensiveness in the Bible about prophecy: even Jesus' statement in Matthew 24 boldly connects the events of the end of that age with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem--even if no date was supplied, and for good reason.

Problem with this comment is JW's were NOT prophecying that 1975 was the end of the world. They said it ends 6000 years of mankinds existence and could mark the start of Armegeddon. (uhh, see your own quoe above for verification) Then they immediately said 'but we're not saying it will and don't you be saying it either.'

You haven't added anything new to this topic. Just repeated the same jibberish and demonstrate a lack of reading comprehension. Seems to be a common trait among anti-JW's. I guess when you don't have quotes from our magazines that actually say what you say it says, you don't have much alternative.

[anewlife]

'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'

[Sparko]

hey NonTrin, you can stick your fingers in your ears and scream "nah! nah! NaH! I can't hear you!" all you want :fingersinears:

But as you notice NOBODY else in this thread is buying your lame rationalizations. Of COURSE they meant that the end of the 6000 years of human existance meant that Armageddon was here. What else did they mean? Did you listen to the audio quotes I provided? Did you read the quotes Crusader gave? They said that the end of the world was nigh and that the end of 6000 years of human existance marked that point. Your feeble attempts at rationalizing it away are hilarious, dude.

I was THERE. I saw the hype.

And Rayado did make a good point. If the Watchtower IS Jehovah's prophet class and mouthpiece on earth and speak for Jehovah, then why do they need to hedge their prophesies at all? And if they are NOT hearing directly from Jehovah and are just men prone to error and have such a lousy track record of false prophesies, like 1914, 1925, 1935, 1975, etc, then why would you want to follow them at all? They are false teachers and false prophets and have shown themselves to be so over and over.

You can't have it both ways, NonTrin. Either way they have shown themselves to have a terrible track record. Why trust them on anything they say?

[Armor of God]

'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'


JW's don't have to worry about this, anewlife. According to NonTrin, they're a Non-prophet organization.

:rasberry:

[Sparko]

JW's don't have to worry about this, anewlife. According to NonTrin, they're a Non-prophet organization.

:rasberry:

:jesus-doh:

[Armor of God]

Oh, come on, Sparko...you laughed and you know it....

:xavier:

[Sparko]

Oh, come on, Sparko...you laughed and you know it....

:xavier:

Very Punny.

[Rayado]

I'll address the new guy on this thread at least once.More than once will do. I'm not that much of a pain to talk to.

Thanks for bolding the part that you think says JW's said the world would end in 1975. May I just point out to you that the quote actually says the end of 6000 years of human existence was in 1975? Somehow you translated that to the phrase 'the world would end in 1975.':ahem:That would be because the Watchtower itself equated the two in 1967:

According to the Bible timetable, man's history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve. There are, therefore, a thousand years left to run. Without Satan and his demons to disturb mankind it will indeed be a restful time. It will be like a sabbath.
Watchtower 7/15/67 pg.446-7

So did Satan & Company™ get snuffed in 1975, as the Watchtower claimed would happen?

And for that matter--where is the apprehensiveness and caution so carefully noted elsewhere? The conditional tense is totally absent here--but, then again, it may have come before cooler heads prevailed at the Watchtower magazine headquarters. This means we have a contradiction on our hands--certain in some places, shifty in others--and that does not bode well for anyone who claims to be God's Organization.

Allow me to requote the phrase and do my own bolding.

1967 "Just think, 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.' (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

Do I need to explain the bolded fonts to you?No, but you managed to commit the fallacy of improper emphasis, which only illuminates the contradiction in the time approaching 1975.

As far as the last quote, you asume it is in that article because of 1975. Those words still appear in Watchtower magazines. We still believe there are only a few years left and that these are the last days. "Few?"

Translation for you: Those words don't have anything to do with 1975 as we still say the same thing. :sigh: That's not what they obviously said in '67.

You got one right. Those who ignored both the Watchtowers warning about NOT saying the end would occur in 1975 and who also ignored Jesus' words at Matt 24:36 were disobedient.Then was their disobedience caused by their ignorance of scripture (which implicates the Watchtower as a poor teacher of Scripture, creating further problems) or because they were unfaithful (how did such unfaithfulness go unchecked for seven or eight years?)?

Problem with this comment is JW's were NOT prophecying that 1975 was the end of the world. They said it ends 6000 years of mankinds existence and could mark the start of Armegeddon. (uhh, see your own quoe above for verification) Then they immediately said 'but we're not saying it will and don't you be saying it either.'Except for 1967, when they were rather confident about the binding of Satan. And all those other times that Sparko quoted that showed their confidence.

You haven't added anything new to this topic. Just repeated the same jibberish and demonstrate a lack of reading comprehension.Then it must have been clear jibberish, for it to have been intelligible enough to respond to... :smile:

Seems to be a common trait among anti-JW's.That is not a wise conclusion to jump to...for I am not 'anti-Jehovah's Witnesses.' Quite the opposite, in fact: if I was anti-JW, as you say, I would not take the time to rationally present my case, and would have joined those who curse and rant at those who go door-to-door. They are anti-JW. A civil disagreement is nothing compared to those who loathe others for their beliefs.

[NonTrinitarian]

Oh, come on, Sparko...you laughed and you know it....

:xavier:

Even I laughed!

[NonTrinitarian]

How do I quote quotes? They disappear on me when I try to reply. See above for the quotes I am trying to reference.


That would be because the Watchtower itself equated the two in 1967:



So did Satan & Company™ get snuffed in 1975, as the Watchtower claimed would happen?

And for that matter--where is the apprehensiveness and caution so carefully noted elsewhere? The conditional tense is totally absent here--but, then again, it may have come before cooler heads prevailed at the Watchtower magazine headquarters. This means we have a contradiction on our hands--certain in some places, shifty in others--and that does not bode well for anyone who claims to be God's Organization.

If there is any quote that you might be able to make a case, that would probably be it. The very first post in this thread quotes a WT article where it said that even those responsible for writing some of the articles went too far. This must be the article they are referring to. So I will grant you that this article is pretty more forceful. But I think when you compare that quote with all the ones I quoted, you can see that JW's were not espousing 1975 as the year. Though it is obvious that the person who wrote the article you quoted was not on the same page. (BTW, there are over 100 writers for JW's). One can't cling to one quote and ignore all the others, if he is really trying to be fair about it. I think it's obvious by and far from many articles JW's were NOT saying 1975 was the year.

No, but you managed to commit the fallacy of improper emphasis, which only illuminates the contradiction in the time approaching 1975. Not sure what you mean by that. I just emphasized the words you apparently overlooked. How does one commit the fallacy of improper emphasis? By emphasizing something you didn't want him to emphasize?

"Few?"

Yes, a few. Just ask a number of Baptists or readers of those rapture books what they mean by it.

Then was their disobedience caused by their ignorance of scripture (which implicates the Watchtower as a poor teacher of Scripture, creating further problems)
Do the many people who misunderstood Jesus mean he was a poor teacher of scripture? People misunderstood him constantly.

or because they were unfaithful (how did such unfaithfulness go unchecked for seven or eight years?)?
Do you have the ability to read hearts? Because we don't. I've talked to many JW's who were around in 1975 and they say the same thing. "We were told to not put our faith in 1975 and that Jesus said no man would know the day." In their eyes, those who left were serving God for a date.

Which brings up another point. JW's saw a sharp increase in the few years before 1975. This increase wasn't from newly interested ones. It was from former JW's who were inactive and had already stopped serving God and got involved with a worldly attitude of being rich or not wanting to follow God's standards on morality. Then when they heard about 1975 they came back so they wouldn't be destroyed. When their false expectations weren't realized, they went back out into the world. As one sister told me, she saw a number of former JW's come back in the early 70's, only to leave after 75. They were living disgusting lives before they came back and returned to them afterward. These are, from what I have heard, many of the JW's who left in 1975 and who misread the WT articles. They already demonstrated a lack of love for God and his standards on sex, etc. Thought they better stop before 1975 and then jumped right back into their former life afterward. If there was any good from the 1975 issue, it was weeding out those who really didn't love God and thought they could live however they wanted and then come back right at the end.

That is not a wise conclusion to jump to...for I am not 'anti-Jehovah's Witnesses.' Quite the opposite, in fact: if I was anti-JW, as you say, I would not take the time to rationally present my case, and would have joined those who curse and rant at those who go door-to-door. They are anti-JW. A civil disagreement is nothing compared to those who loathe others for their beliefs.

I apologize for the strong title. But in my mind you have a biased agenda. You embolden words in a quote that don't say Armegeddon will occur in 1975 and in that same quote you ignore the words "Could" and the phrase "we will have to wait and see."

Do you not see why I am skeptical?

[Sparko]

non-trin, you also need to realize that the JW's who remained after 1975 HAD to rationalize why they were staying. Of COURSE they will say that "oh yeah we were told not to put our faith in 1975" to do otherwise is to admit they are following a false cult on purpose.

We didnt misread the articles. We posted the articles and links to the entire articles here in the thread for all to read. I posted links to audio speeches by the leaders of the watchtower for all to hear. Anyone and pretty much EVERYONE but YOU have seen and heard for themselves that they were preaching that 1975 was the year of Armageddon and the beginning of the Millenium (the last 1000 years)

If you take the blinders off you will see it too.

[Rayado]

How do I quote quotes? They disappear on me when I try to reply. See above for the quotes I am trying to reference.

To do that, you [ quote=""Jimmy Bob"][ quote=""So-and-so"]text [/ quote] text[/quote ]

You just use the quote tags within quote tags, like this:

I said this.And I said that.

If there is any quote that you might be able to make a case, that would probably be it. The very first post in this thread quotes a WT article where it said that even those responsible for writing some of the articles went too far. This must be the article they are referring to. So I will grant you that this article is pretty more forceful. But I think when you compare that quote with all the ones I quoted, you can see that JW's were not espousing 1975 as the year. It's a different thing from the same people, and they were self-contradictory when it came to emphasizing the importance of 1975.

Though it is obvious that the person who wrote the article you quoted was not on the same page. (BTW, there are over 100 writers for JW's). One can't cling to one quote and ignore all the others, if he is really trying to be fair about it. I think it's obvious by and far from many articles JW's were NOT saying 1975 was the year.

How did such bombastic comments by one writer or so make it past the other 100+ writers without at least someone making a fuss over it?

And they still messed up (from Crusader's list of quotes):

1971 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

Not sure what you mean by that. I just emphasized the words you apparently overlooked. How does one commit the fallacy of improper emphasis? By emphasizing something you didn't want him to emphasize?

Nice try, but attempting to staple such an error onto me will not work: I have addressed the "could" passages, and correctly labeled them as hype and ambiguity. Improper emphasis deals with 'looking at the whole picture'--i.e., your early refusal to work with the 'stronger' 1975 passages that the Watchtower produced, even into 1974. Not to mention that they implicated themselves as the cause of the 1975 fiasco--and after the fact, at that:

1969 "in view of the short time left, a decision to pursue a career in this system of things is not only unwise but extremely dangerous....Many young brothers and sisters were offered scholarship or employment that promised fine pay. However, they turned them down and put spiritual interests first." (Kingdom Ministry, June 1969, p. 3)

1974 "Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity?...Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." (Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3)

1976 "It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bibles warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date." (Watchtower, July 15, 1976, p. 440)

That's rather shameful that the Watchtower would encourage those who anticipated the end--and rebuked them after their own prophecy went awry.

It's obvious that the Watchtower anticipated Armageddon in 1975. It is that that has been minimized and rationalized away.

Yes, a few. Just ask a number of Baptists or readers of those rapture books what they mean by it.Perhaps I should mention that I am a Baptist--oh, and I'm also an Orthodox Preterist, so most end-times hype doesn't affect me. What this means is that I cannot be "guilted by association" into accepting the Watchtower (re)definition of "few."

Do the many people who misunderstood Jesus mean he was a poor teacher of scripture? People misunderstood him constantly.Let's take a look and see who misunderstood Jesus:

Sanhedrin--most certainly didn't misunderstand him; it was because they understood him and opposed those consequences that He was betrayed and killed.

Disciples--briefly misunderstood him, but Jesus knew this and corrected them (we see evidence of this in the Gospels when He explains the parables to them).

Everyone else--understood him and recognized him as Messiah; only misunderstood what he was there to do, and only then because of the political atmosphere of the time.

Even a cursory look at the Gospels shows that he was a very effective teacher of Scripture--so effective he died because of it.

Do you have the ability to read hearts? Because we don't. I've talked to many JW's who were around in 1975 and they say the same thing. "We were told to not put our faith in 1975 and that Jesus said no man would know the day." In their eyes, those who left were serving God for a date. That's not what the Watchtower itself was saying before 1975, as I have highlighted in this very post.

But the reason for the disobedience which has been otherwise agreed on has not been fully explained.

Which brings up another point. JW's saw a sharp increase in the few years before 1975. This increase wasn't from newly interested ones. It was from former JW's who were inactive and had already stopped serving God and got involved with a worldly attitude of being rich or not wanting to follow God's standards on morality. Then when they heard about 1975 they came back so they wouldn't be destroyed. When their false expectations weren't realized, they went back out into the world. As one sister told me, she saw a number of former JW's come back in the early 70's, only to leave after 75. They were living disgusting lives before they came back and returned to them afterward. These are, from what I have heard, many of the JW's who left in 1975 and who misread the WT articles. They already demonstrated a lack of love for God and his standards on sex, etc. Thought they better stop before 1975 and then jumped right back into their former life afterward. If there was any good from the 1975 issue, it was weeding out those who really didn't love God and thought they could live however they wanted and then come back right at the end.
Can we say "No true Scotsman?" As has already been shown, the JWs praised those who looked for the end in 1975 and acted accordingly.

And this right here is the difference between the dogma of the JWs and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All that the Watchtower can offer is standards--and the intense guilt from the inevitable inability to completely follow them. If they returned because of a standared, they were returning to bondage to an unfulfillable perfection and the vicious cycle that it places upon people.

The shed blood of Jesus atones for all of our transgressions against God's standard

1But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

As it is written, we are justified, by God, freely, by Jesus taking our place and bearing the punishment for us. We are saved by believing--not by upholding an impossible standard.

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Oh, would that they have sought the forgiveness of God instead of a standard!

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Jesus paid it all,
All to him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain--
He washed it white as snow.

I apologize for the strong title. But in my mind you have a biased agenda. You embolden words in a quote that don't say Armegeddon will occur in 1975 and in that same quote you ignore the words "Could" and the phrase "we will have to wait and see."

Do you not see why I am skeptical?I see bias as well--but it's unavoidable on both our parts, and doesn't affect what is actually true or not. I think there is bias in not interacting with the passages that the Watchtwer used to support 1975 as Armageddon.