Interracial Marriage Sermon by Herbert W Armstrong

[David Ben-Ariel]

Interracial Marriage Sermon Transcript by Herbert W. Armstrong (http://u15187009.onlinehome-server.com/articles.php)

Some have falsely claimed Herbert W. Armstrong was a racist, ignoring that the former Worldwide Church of God had black ministers, black evangelists, black elders, black deacons and deaconesses, black laymembers, etc. - the vast majority who agreed with the Church's biblical teaching about interracial marriage.

[technomage]

Interracial Marriage Sermon Transcript by Herbert W. Armstrong (http://u15187009.onlinehome-server.com/articles.php)

Some have falsely claimed Herbert W. Armstrong was a racist, ignoring that the former Worldwide Church of God had black ministers, black evangelists, black elders, black deacons and deaconesses, black laymembers, etc. - the vast majority who agreed with the Church's biblical teaching about interracial marriage.
Armstrong wasn't a racist--just incorrect for thinking he was of Jewish descent.

[dizzle]

why is this in eschatology?

[technomage]

why is this in eschatology?
David's done that more than once--usually he gets shuffled over to Unorthodox Theology.

[mickiel]

Interracial Marriage Sermon Transcript by Herbert W. Armstrong (http://u15187009.onlinehome-server.com/articles.php)

Some have falsely claimed Herbert W. Armstrong was a racist, ignoring that the former Worldwide Church of God had black ministers, black evangelists, black elders, black deacons and deaconesses, black laymembers, etc. - the vast majority who agreed with the Church's biblical teaching about interracial marriage.



They didn't have them in the early years, so your point is mute. There was a time that no blacks were in the worldwide church of God. Then as that changed, they seperated the congregations, the blacks had to sit in different places. Then that changed and they were allowed to sit in the back. Then as the change swept through America, NOT Mr. Arstrong, they were allowed to become elders. Mr. Armstrongs views on marriage were indeed racist, as were his views on dateing itself. He taught not to date outside of their church, neither white or black could do that. The women were not allowed to wear make up, and they even regulated the length of black mens hair.

You are defending Mr Armstrong because you believe in him, but there is no defense against racism, only admittance to it. Believe me I know.

[spiritmech]

Yeah this is ridiculous.

There was a time when Israel was asked not to marry outside of the Israelites, but that is not really in effect any more.

We are all one in Christ.
sm

[Hitch]

Interracial Marriage Sermon Transcript by Herbert W. Armstrong (http://u15187009.onlinehome-server.com/articles.php)

Some have falsely claimed Herbert W. Armstrong was a racist, ignoring that the former Worldwide Church of God had black ministers, black evangelists, black elders, black deacons and deaconesses, black laymembers, etc. - the vast majority who agreed with the Church's biblical teaching about interracial marriage.This is the eschatology section.

[furay]

This is the eschatology section.
I guess the racist dispensation has passed. :shrug:

[theonomist]

I guess the racist dispensation has passed. :shrug:
No it has not, interracial marriage is still a sin, God does not change, the only thing that changed is that we swallowed the lies of that communist traitor called Martin Luther King, he actually thought we were all equal, silly false prophet!

[Ryokan]

No it has not, interracial marriage is still a sin, God does not change, the only thing that changed is that we swallowed the lies of that communist traitor called Martin Luther King, he actually thought we were all equal, silly false prophet!
Your being sarcastic, right?

[Ryokan]

There was a time when Israel was asked not to marry outside of the Israelites, but that is not really in effect any more.

smAnd that was Hebrew civil law. Why that should affect us now, 2000 years later..... :ahem: Even if we accept that every word, law, and geneology list in the bible is dvinely inspired, their is no reason to think a legal code, crafted for a society 3000 or so years ago, is the right thing for us to do now, given our different situation, culture, etc.

[theonomist]

Your being sarcastic, right? NO, I am 100% serious!

[Rubia Warren]

Wow. :outtie:

[Ryokan]

NO, I am 100% serious!
Why are you a kinist? How long have you been one? Why?

[theonomist]

Why are you a kinist? How long have you been one? Why? I have not been a kinist for too long, but the reason is, is because I studied the issue out with my bible and history and know that it is true. Most all of our good (old) presidents have also been kinists.:wink: Unless of course you believe that in the last 50 years we have become much "wiser" and more "enlightened" than all our forefathers because they were all "racists". I also agree with Dabney the great theologian.

[dizzle]

IMHO this is a ridiculous position in light of the New Testament's sweeping away of such distinctions. All believers are of ONE kin. Sons and daughters of Abraham.

[technomage]

IMHO this is a ridiculous position in light of the New Testament's sweeping away of such distinctions. All believers are of ONE kin. Sons and daughters of Abraham.
Considering that Kinism is based on Anglo-Israelism, canthis thread be moved to Unorthodox Theology?

[spiritmech]

Yeah, this is where theonomy (the ideology, not the person) starts to fall apart for me, as well. This is the kind of stuff that gives theonomists a bad name.
sm

[dizzle]

it certainly isn't eschatological and is way outside the main core of evangelical thought

[theonomist]

IMHO this is a ridiculous position in light of the New Testament's sweeping away of such distinctions. All believers are of ONE kin. Sons and daughters of Abraham. Galations 3:28, there goes are grounds for standing against sodomite marriage also. I suppose God really does change, gee I wonder why he didnt just make one race in the first place, maybe he is a little confused, I dunno :blush: all that crazy talk about tribes in Revalation.

[theonomist]

it certainly is way outside the main core of evangelical thought Praise God for that!

[eschaton]

it certainly isn't eschatological and is way outside the main core of evangelical thought

I've never agreed more.

[Bill the Cat]

I've never agreed more.
:stop2:
Moved to Unorthodox Theology

[Bill the Cat]

Galations 3:28, there goes are grounds for standing against sodomite marriage also. I suppose God really does change, gee I wonder why he didnt just make one race in the first place, maybe he is a little confused, I dunno :blush: all that crazy talk about tribes in Revalation.


[puts away mod hat]

Now, if interracial marriage is a sin, then Jesus commits it by being married to Gentiles...

[dizzle]

theonomist God DID create one race - or do you like Mattel - think there was a black version, a hispanic version, a Chinese version of Adam and Eve.

The distinctions were profoundly cultural. In the sense the NT would mean it, I would be a "kinist" meaning a believer should not marry a nonbeliever.

It is this kind of eisegesis that was used to justify slavery of blacks.

[dizzle]

Praise God for that!

Wow, it is usally only cultists or those with cultic beliefs that take pride in being in the fringe.

[dizzle]

Galations 3:28, there goes are grounds for standing against sodomite marriage also. I suppose God really does change, gee I wonder why he didnt just make one race in the first place, maybe he is a little confused, I dunno :blush: all that crazy talk about tribes in Revalation.

You do have a working brain right? If so, please use it in your next response. This was too incoherent to respond to.

[dizzle]

[puts away mod hat]

Now, if interracial marriage is a sin, then Jesus commits it by being married to Gentiles...

Oh the tap dance around this one is going to be entertaining. Perhaps he will take the route of the X9 crowd and claim that the Church is not the Bride.

[theonomist]

[puts away mod hat]

Now, if interracial marriage is a sin, then Jesus commits it by being married to Gentiles... Devastating rebuttal, devastating, R.L Dabney would be proud!

[spiritmech]

Devastating rebuttal, devastating, R.L Dabney would be proud!

Yes, almost as good as your, "Dead white guys were racists, so it's okay!" argument. :lol:
sm

[theonomist]

theonomist God DID create one race - or do you like Mattel - think there was a black version, a hispanic version, a Chinese version of Adam and Eve.

The distinctions were profoundly cultural. In the sense the NT would mean it, I would be a "kinist" meaning a believer should not marry a nonbeliever.

It is this kind of eisegesis that was used to justify slavery of blacks. Interesting theory but I still prefer scripture and Dabney.

[theonomist]

Wow, it is usally only cultists or those with cultic beliefs that take pride in being in the fringe. Well since the culture of America reflects the church, we know mainstream evangelicalism has all the answers. That cult leader Dabney was reall "mainstrean".

[theonomist]

You do have a working brain right? If so, please use it in your next response. This was too incoherent to respond to. Is that why Paul refused to let woman teach in the church? Because they made the best ad-hominum theologians?

[technomage]

Is that why Paul refused to let woman teach in the church? Because they made the best ad-hominum theologians?

If that's true, then you must be wearing the wrong penguin.

In all seriousness: the only commandment against inter-racial marriage in the Bible is that Jews were not allowed to marry Canaanites, and (not a racial issue, but related) Christians are not allowed to marry non-Christians. Now, last I knew, the Canaanites no longer existed, and you're not Jewish. So what's the problem?

[theonomist]

Yes, almost as good as your, "Dead white guys were racists, so it's okay!" argument. :lol:
sm Your absolutely correct, that "racist" Paul was a "racist" when he wrote Rom 9:3. It is almost as funny as when R.C sproul jr tried to refute those silly "white supremists".:lol:

[theonomist]

If that's true, then you must be wearing the wrong penguin.

In all seriousness: the only commandment against inter-racial marriage in the Bible is that Jews were not allowed to marry Canaanites, and (not a racial issue, but related) Christians are not allowed to marry non-Christians. Now, last I knew, the Canaanites no longer existed, and you're not Jewish. So what's the problem? The problem is dispensationalism, that is the problem.

[Timothy Leary]

Inter-racial marriage, while something i'm definetely not interested in, is never condemned in the bible. There is the prohibition of kila'im (Leviticus 19:19 and others, which prohibits bestiality and the mixture of two different species, e.g. man & ox = forbidden, cat & dog = forbidden, etc.), however no where in the Torah are people considered different species simply because one's skin is darker!

The only verses one could possibly base this racist ideology from is the prohibition against marrying non-Israeli(te) women, but the problem with that is that one could always convert! The story of Ruth alone should be proof enough for that.

[technomage]

The problem is dispensationalism, that is the problem.
So what happened? Did God change His mind?

[Timothy Leary]

Now, last I knew, the Canaanites no longer existed, and you're not Jewish. So what's the problem?

Actually, they have descendants which live even today, but that's another topic!

[Strategos]

Your absolutely correct, that "racist" Paul was a "racist" when he wrote Rom 9:3. It is almost as funny as when R.C sproul jr tried to refute those silly "white supremists".:lol:


I don't get it, how does Romans 9:3 show Paul to be a racist? "For I wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." If you are arguing that Paul is racist because he offers himself to be separated from Christ for Jews and not Gentiles, you are ignoring the context of Romans 9-11 which he deals with Israel's unbelief specifically. He could very well have the same wish in regards to Gentiles, that was not his point in Romans 9-11 and to argue that he didn't have that wish is to argue for silence. Since he spent much of his life post-conversion in evangelizing Gentiles, I think we have a good reason to suspect that he did have a similar wish for Gentiles.

If I misunderstood you, please forgive me and correct my misunderstanding.

[David Ben-Ariel]

This is the eschatology section.

I'm glad you noticed that, now if you would only recognize the plain truth that "as it was in the days of Noah..." and perceive the biblical principle Herbert Armstrong is expounding and that I build upon such a scriptural foundation:

Race Matters (http://ezinearticles.com/?Race-Matters&id=101706)

Is interracial marriage wrong? Did God intend for the races to be separate? Did God divide the nations to preserve distinct family ties?

David, please! You have been warned repeatedly about arguing with web links! If the only reason you are on this board is to advertize your articles that you have written on different sites, then this is not the web site for you. It is against our decorum.

[theonomist]

Inter-racial marriage, while something i'm definetely not interested in, is never condemned in the bible. There is the prohibition of kila'im (Leviticus 19:19 and others, which prohibits bestiality and the mixture of two different species, e.g. man & ox = forbidden, cat & dog = forbidden, etc.), however no where in the Torah are people considered different species simply because one's skin is darker!

The only verses one could possibly base this racist ideology from is the prohibition against marrying non-Israeli(te) women, but the problem with that is that one could always convert! The story of Ruth alone should be proof enough for that. The story of Ruth will not work

[Krusader]

[QUOTE=David Ben-Ariel] the plain truth (QUOTE]


Hey, you could name a magazine that - "The Plain Truth!"


Isn't it obvious that the Old Testament restrictions against marriage with non-Israelites had to do with mixing cultural norms, taboos and customs - and nothing to do with race. God was really against having the children of cross cultural marriages (Israeli plus Molech worshippers) sacrificed to Molech by fire - he didn't want the Jews intermarrying with those who worshipped this false god and sacrificed their children to this false god.

[Timothy Leary]

The story of Ruth will not work

Nor do one line responses that don't give any explanation.

[theonomist]

I don't get it, how does Romans 9:3 show Paul to be a racist? "For I wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." If you are arguing that Paul is racist because he offers himself to be separated from Christ for Jews and not Gentiles, you are ignoring the context of Romans 9-11 which he deals with Israel's unbelief specifically. He could very well have the same wish in regards to Gentiles, that was not his point in Romans 9-11 and to argue that he didn't have that wish is to argue for silence. Since he spent much of his life post-conversion in evangelizing Gentiles, I think we have a good reason to suspect that he did have a similar wish for Gentiles.

If I misunderstood you, please forgive me and correct my misunderstanding. No I am not saying he was a racist, just like the kinists are not racists, but just like Mathew Henry said we should have a special love for our People, our kin, our family our race. There is nothing wrong with that. But if I stood up today in a church and said I wish that I were accursed from Christ for the sake of white brethren, I would immediately become a "racist". Kinism is defined simply as "a love of ones own kind". We should respect Gods diversity, not destroy it like they tried to do at the tower of babel.

[theonomist]

I'm glad you noticed that, now if you would only recognize the plain truth that "as it was in the days of Noah..." and perceive the biblical principle Herbert Armstrong is expounding and that I build upon such a scriptural foundation:

Race Matters (http://ezinearticles.com/?Race-Matters&id=101706)


Is interracial marriage wrong? Did God intend for the races to be separate? Did God divide the nations to preserve distinct family ties? Yes

[theonomist]

Nor do one line responses that don't give any explanation.

http://littlegeneva.com/interracial.html


No major theologian has refuted this, but I am sure we will have at least 100 minor ones here that will.


Please do not argue via weblink.

[dizzle]

Does a rebuttal have to be from a "major" theologian? Are you a major theologian that we should even be discoursing with you?

I apologize for assuming that you were in fact a fully cooked omelet. I see that you are an egg or two short.

You are making me wish I did in fact marry someone of another race, though depending upon your definition maybe I did.

[theonomist]

Does a rebuttal have to be from a "major" theologian? Are you a major theologian that we should even be discoursing with you?

I apologize for assuming that you were in fact a fully cooked omelet. I see that you are an egg or two short.

You are making me wish I did in fact marry someone of another race, though depending upon your definition maybe I did. Let me here your refutation einstein, I will be waiting. You may want to stick to eschatology though.

[dizzle]

I don't think I should speak with you until I get a sample of your DNA to find out if it is appropriate for us to have such discourse. You may not be my "kind."

[Timothy Leary]

Let me here your refutation einstein, I will be waiting. You may want to stick to eschatology though.

I'm still waiting for something more than a one line rebuttal from you.

[theonomist]

I don't think I should speak with you until I get a sample of your DNA to find out if it is appropriate for us to have such discourse. You may not be my "kind." I am willing to speak to people from poland, its ok, really it is.

[technomage]

I am willing to speak to people from poland, its ok, really it is.
The quoted post contains a racist slur, and has been reported for moderation.

[Ryokan]

I don't think I should speak with you until I get a sample of your DNA to find out if it is appropriate for us to have such discourse. You may not be my "kind."
I tried to call theonomy a troll, but it sounded like I called you one DDW. Sorry.

[theonomist]

I'm still waiting for something more than a one line rebuttal from you. Kinism is not going to live or die by me on this blog, I have already given you one resource wich you were quite interested in reading, but dont you worry though, my friend is in the process of writing three kinist books as we speak, and he is a pretty sharp cracka, we will not be going away real soon and you will be hearing plenty from us "racists" in the future I will promise you that.

[theonomist]

The quoted post contains a racist slur, and has been reported for moderation. Busted by the thought police, tisk, tisk.

[dizzle]

I am willing to speak to people from poland, its ok, really it is.

Thanks for showing you really are a bigot. That came quicker than I expected.

[dizzle]

I tried to call theonomy a troll, but it sounded like I called you one DDW. Sorry.

Oh I didn't see that.... and we have to be careful, this guy's name is theonomist not theonomy who is an entirely different poster who actually makes cogent points.

[dizzle]

If that's true, then you must be wearing the wrong penguin.


I just got that! :rofl: It seems our friend here might be sexist as well.

[dizzle]

No I am not saying he was a racist, just like the kinists are not racists, but just like Mathew Henry said we should have a special love for our People, our kin, our family our race. There is nothing wrong with that. But if I stood up today in a church and said I wish that I were accursed from Christ for the sake of white brethren, I would immediately become a "racist". Kinism is defined simply as "a love of ones own kind". We should respect Gods diversity, not destroy it like they tried to do at the tower of babel.

Oh my. Well fellow, you are not one of my kind.

[theonomist]

Thanks for showing you really are a bigot. That came quicker than I expected. See that I knew you could do it, those kinists cant fool you can they, we can never get it past those politically correct one world neobablists types, silly me, when will I ever learn.

[dizzle]

Err was that English? Caution Madam, Archie Bunker has commas, and he ain't afraid to use 'em.

[theonomist]

Err was that English? Caution Madam, Archie Bunker has commas, and he ain't afraid to use 'em. You have me on my grammer, but this is not about grammer, it is about why our country is being flushed into the gutter, by the minority liberal votes that we have allowed, that George Washington never would. But then again what does that old "white supremist" know anyways, he was not "wise" and multiculteral like we are. Lets just open up all our borders and show the world we are not "racist".

[Hitch]

The quoted post contains a racist slur, and has been reported for moderation. Hmmmmm are you saying those in Poland are a seperate race?

[Darth Executor]

You have me on my grammer, but this is not about grammer, it is about why our country is being flushed into the gutter, by the minority liberal votes that we have allowed, that George Washington never would. But then again what does that old "white supremist" know anyways, he was not "wise" and multiculteral like we are. Lets just open up all our borders and show the world we are not "racist".

Why not leave America and leave it to the natives? White people don't belong here any more than blacks do.

[Strategos]

I'm confused, are we discussing whether interracial marriage is a sin or are we having too much fun hurtling one line insults at each other. Lets act like mature adults who are humbly and earnestly seeking God's will, not little squabling kids.

No I am not saying he was a racist, just like the kinists are not racists, but just like Mathew Henry said we should have a special love for our People, our kin, our family our race. There is nothing wrong with that. But if I stood up today in a church and said I wish that I were accursed from Christ for the sake of white brethren, I would immediately become a "racist". Kinism is defined simply as "a love of ones own kind". We should respect Gods diversity, not destroy it like they tried to do at the tower of babel.

But I can't help but think you're arguing from silence. Yes it would be racist if Paul only was willing to become accursed for Jews. But if he was willing to become accursed for both Jews and Gentiles, there is no racism or kinism or whatever you wish to call it. The context of Romans 9-11 deals with a Jewish problem, it is because God (and by proxy Paul who preaches the message of God) is being accused of abandoning his covenantal promises with Israel. The problem that Paul is dealing with is if God abandons his promises with Israel, how can he be trusted in keeping his promises with the church? Is it any wonder that Paul, in having his mission to the Gentiles questioned that he should respond by affirming his desire to see all Israel saved? This is no special love for kin (in my opinion) this is a general feeling that Paul has to see all people saved that Paul specifies in order to make a point in his argument. I base my claim that Paul would willingly become accursed for all men based off of the extreme persecution and pain he willingly suffered in order to see Gentile’s saved.

Now I’m sure you’ll disagree with that, and I am willing for the moment to put that aside, considering it to be a side argument. Now because I am unfamiliar with the specifics of kinism, I would appreciate it greatly if you could answer some questions for me. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in helping me better understand your position and reasons for you holding it.

1) Do you believe that different races/culture groups should worship God separately. That is, should, for example, there be African-American only churches and Caucasian only churches or should there be culturally diverse churches who worship God together.
2) How strictly do you follow cultural separation? Is it just marriage that is wrong or is it wrong to live in the same neighborhood, be close friends, etc.
3) Is it wrong for people to experience and enjoy other cultures. For example, is it wrong for a European to enjoy and frequently indulge in Chinese films and cuisine?
4) How do you define “race?” Is it primarily national, skin color, culture, descent?

[Ryokan]

Oh I didn't see that.... and we have to be careful, this guy's name is theonomist not theonomy who is an entirely different poster who actually makes cogent points.
Jeez, did it again. I love Theonomy. he's nice and funny, even if I find his politics odd. Theonomist, Theonomist, theonomist.

[theonomist]

1) Do you believe that different races/culture groups should worship God separately. That is, should, for example, there be African-American only churches and Caucasian only churches or should there be culturally diverse churches who worship God together.

Yes, just like the amish have done and have because of that survived as a people and race for a good long time. Whites communicate the truth better to whites, orientals to orientals etc,etc, In fact it is natural for a korean church to stay korean, think about it, with all the diversity training in schools and forced integration, the nerds still sit with the nerds, and the jocks still sit with the jocks at lunchtime. Or did God mean for us all to look eventually all the same? The Amish are against interracial marriage but nobody accuses them as being "white supremisists". We can have a united negroe college fund, but if I started a white anglo-saxon college fund, I would go to prison for being a "white supremisist".

2) How strictly do you follow cultural separation? Is it just marriage that is wrong or is it wrong to live in the same neighborhood, be close friends, etc.

Not sure, the scriptures speak of every tribe, tongue and nation. At least four times in revelation, have we thought about the meanings of these? How has multiculteralism prospered our country?

3) Is it wrong for people to experience and enjoy other cultures. For example, is it wrong for a European to enjoy and frequently indulge in Chinese films and cuisine?

I dont think so.

4) How do you define “race?” Is it primarily national, skin color, culture, descent?
kinsmen
Thayer Definition:
1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood
2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman










</P></P>

[Lady Macbeth]

You have me on my grammer, but this is not about grammer, it is about why our country is being flushed into the gutter, by the minority liberal votes that we have allowed, that George Washington never would. But then again what does that old "white supremist" know anyways, he was not "wise" and multiculteral like we are. Lets just open up all our borders and show the world we are not "racist".

Our country is being flushed into the gutter by a public education system that doesn't even teach people how to spell GRAMMAR, let alone read their own religious texts and supporting materials, OR know the history of their own country.

Perhaps a reminder of the text of the Declaration of Independence, under which George Washington was able to become President, is in order:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Back to the topic at hand, interracial marriage:

Because this is Unorthodox Theology 201, let me offer the two cents of someone who knows how to read and interpret information.

The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The last time I checked, soil of the ground is invariably some shade of brown from tan to black.

Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

This part is usually considered to be a rib, the mythological "missing rib" of men. More liberally interpreted, the word where "rib" is in the text can also be translated as "side", and thus it was some bit of bone - rib or otherwise - that created Eve, and (according to Genesis) God closed up the gap on Adam with flesh.

The last time I checked, bones are invariably some shade of white from pearl to dusty grey.

Also, according to some texts, Adam did have a wife prior to Eve, made of the very same soil from which Adam was fashioned. Her name was Lilith, and because she was made from the soil just as Adam was, she demanded equality with him; when he tried to force her into submission, she left him.

So much for staying with one's own "kind".

The biological aspect of race is described today not in observable physical features but rather in such genetic characteristics as blood groups and metabolic processes, and the groupings indicated by these factors seldom coincide very neatly with those put forward by earlier physical anthropologists. Citing this and other points - such as the fact that a person who is considered black in one society might be nonblack in another - many cultural anthropologists now consider race to be more a social or mental construct than an objective biological fact.

The only way Americans can distinguish "race" is by skin color, which - as is cited above - has become obvious is not an actual way to distinguish race. That, paired with ideas such as those I posted above, suggest that any prohibition on interracial marriage is simply a construct of a bigoted and uneducated population. There is neither Biblical support for it, nor support for it in biology or rational sociology.

[technomage]

Salutations, Lady Macbeth,

Look closely, my friend. This young man who goes by the user name theonomist: this is a heretic who twists our scriptures to justify his hatred. There are some like this within Paganism--but I can justly say that you Pagans who truly believe have as little use for your racists as we do.

And to my brothers and sisters, the Christians here--I'll point you to a Pagan who may not understand all of the Bible, but who definitely understands this portion of the Bible better than theonomist.

Theonomist, I know what God you claim to follow ... but I also know that your actions do not match your claims. When non-Christians understand the Scriptures more than you do, then I'd say it's definitely within the realm of reason to question if truly you follow Jesus Christ, or if you follow a man-made doctrine.

What say you, Theonomist?

[dizzle]

Hmmmmm are you saying those in Poland are a seperate race?

:rofl: If only... he was just propogating the bigotted comment that Polish people are stupid.

[Spinyn00bman]

Our country is being flushed into the gutter by a public education system that doesn't even teach people how to spell GRAMMAR, let alone read their own religious texts and supporting materials, OR know the history of their own country.



Ah yes. The public education system is to blame.

Never mind the SCORES of parents who see their children as baggage to be dealt with instead of gifts to be treasured.

Lets just lambast the teachers.

That's easy.

And by the way, Theonomist?

Please run down to the local K-Mart and buy a clue.

[dizzle]

You have me on my grammer, but this is not about grammer, it is about why our country is being flushed into the gutter, by the minority liberal votes that we have allowed, that George Washington never would. But then again what does that old "white supremist" know anyways, he was not "wise" and multiculteral like we are. Lets just open up all our borders and show the world we are not "racist".

Now my friends, if anyone does not think this is racist, you need to read again. I wasn't only getting you on your grammAr (I am sure you can't spell because the evil minorities have invaded your education), but on you coherence. IOW you were heavy on commas (and the rules of commas are very easy to learn, I know many from these evil minorities that seem to have mastered the rules of commas quite well) and light on cogency. Are you a Native American? If so, I guess you thought the borders should have been closed right after your "kin" were let in. I am second generation from immigrants. Both sets of grandparents came through Ellis Island, and by your definition were from vastly different "kin."

So what's a poor half-breed like me to do?

[Strategos]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and your honesty in your answers.

1) Do you believe that different races/culture groups should worship God separately. That is, should, for example, there be African-American only churches and Caucasian only churches or should there be culturally diverse churches who worship God together.

Yes, just like the amish have done and have because of that survived as a people and race for a good long time. Whites communicate the truth better to whites, orientals to orientals etc,etc, In fact it is natural for a korean church to stay korean, think about it, with all the diversity training in schools and forced integration, the nerds still sit with the nerds, and the jocks still sit with the jocks at lunchtime. Or did God mean for us all to look eventually all the same? The Amish are against interracial marriage but nobody accuses them as being "white supremisists". We can have a united negroe college fund, but if I started a white anglo-saxon college fund, I would go to prison for being a "white supremisist".

So even though the "seperate but equal" stance didn't work for education, you are proposing it should be the law in churches? Funny, with your comment that "Whites communicate the truth better to whites, orientals to orientals etc,etc" you would think that Paul would have sticked to evangelizing Jews. Yet he did not, he evangelized to everyone, becoming all things to all men. I suppose that by your reasoning we should also stop sending missionaries to foriegn nations? Lastly, aren't we made one in Christ? Ephesians 2:11-22 would seem to add something to this debate

2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
2:14 For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility,
2:15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace, 2:16 and to reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by which the hostility has been killed.

2) How strictly do you follow cultural separation? Is it just marriage that is wrong or is it wrong to live in the same neighborhood, be close friends, etc.

Not sure, the scriptures speak of every tribe, tongue and nation. At least four times in revelation, have we thought about the meanings of these? How has multiculteralism prospered our country?

Yes, and the tribe/tongue/nations in Revelation I would argue shows the inclusive nature of the gospel, it is for all. I do not see how this supports your position.

3) Is it wrong for people to experience and enjoy other cultures. For example, is it wrong for a European to enjoy and frequently indulge in Chinese films and cuisine?

I dont think so.

Come now, be consistent. If you are against cultural mixture in society, be against cultural mixture in individuals. After all, society is made up of individuals, so if the individuals are culturally mixed, so will the society.

4) How do you define “race?” Is it primarily national, skin color, culture, descent?

kinsmen
Thayer Definition:
1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood
2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman

Very well, but which of the two are you refering to? For example, take America, but your definition (2) an African-American and an Asian-American can get married because they are both citizens of the United States while in (1) they wouldn't. As for (1) how far are you going to take it? Should we only marry our close relatives because we need to marry our kinsmen? How far down the genetic line do we have to go so that we are still related while at the same time preventing your position from turning into a pro-incest stance?

[theonomist]

[QUOTE=Lady Macbeth]Our country is being flushed into the gutter by a public education system that doesn't even teach people how to spell GRAMMAR, let alone read their own religious texts and supporting materials, OR know the history of their own country.

Perhaps a reminder of the text of the Declaration of Independence, under which George Washington was able to become President, is in order:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

These old documents are as dead as the constitution.


THE NATURALIZATION ACT OF 1795 (http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/naturalization/naturalization_text.html)
An Act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization; and to repeal the Act heretofore passed on that Subject. For carrying into complete effect the power given by the constitution, to establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;

SECTION 1. BE it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, that any alien, being a free white person, may be admitted to become a citizen of the United States, or any of them, on the following conditions, and not otherwise. First, he shall have declared, on oath or affirmation, before the Supreme, Superior, District, or Circuit Court of some one of the states, or of the territories northwest or south of the Ohio River, or a Circuit or District Court of the United States, three years at least before his admission, that it was, bona fide, his intention to become a citizen of the United States, and to renounce forever all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whereof such alien may at that time be a citizen or subject. Secondly. He shall, at the time of his application to be admitted, declare on oath or affirmation before some one of the courts aforesaid that he has resided within the United States five years at least, and within the state or territory where such court is at the time held, one year at least; that he will support the Constitution of the United States; and that he does absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreigh prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whatever and particularly by name the prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whereof he was before a citizen or subject; which proceedings shall be recorded by the clerk of the court. Thirdly. The court admitting such alien shall be satisfied that he has resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States five years. It shall further appear to their satisfaction that during that time he has behaved as a man of a good moral character, attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States, and well-disposed to the good order and happiness of the same. Fourthly. In case the alien applying to be admitted to citizenship shall have borne any hereditary title, or been of any of the orders of nobility, in the kingdom or state from which he came, he shall, in addition to the above requisites, make an express renunciation of his title or order of nobility in the court to which his application shall be made; which renunciation shall be recorded in the said court.

FREDERICK AUGUSTUS MUHLENBERG, Speaker of the House of Representatives.


JOHN ADAMS, Vice-President of the United States, And President of the Senate.

APPROVED, January the 29th, 1795: GEORGE WASHINGTON, President of the United States

Show me were the bible says we are all created equal?

"The mean IQ score among Blacks is approximately 85 and the mean IQ score among Whites is approximately 100; the mean IQ score of Hispanics is usually reported to be between the mean Black and White scores (Herrnstein and Murray report a mean "Latino" IQ of 89 in The Bell Curve (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=The+Bell+Curve&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1)). The mean score for people of East Asian (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=East+Asia&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1) and Jewish descent is usually higher than the mean score of Whites, but the extent of that difference is not precisely known. However, several studies place the median IQ of Ashkenazi (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ashkenazi&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1) Jews (who make up the overwhelming majority of American Jews (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jewish+American&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1)) at approximately one standard deviation above the mean for other Whites, with the primary Jewish advantage in verbal reasoning and the East Asian advantage primarily in spatial reasoning. In The Bell Curve, Herrnstein and Murray report mean IQ scores for East Asians and Jewish Americans of 106 and 113, respectively."</P>

[Spinyn00bman]

[QUOTE=Lady Macbeth]Our country is being flushed into the gutter by a public education system that doesn't even teach people how to spell GRAMMAR, let alone read their own religious texts and supporting materials, OR know the history of their own country.

Perhaps a reminder of the text of the Declaration of Independence, under which George Washington was able to become President, is in order:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

These old documents are as dead as the constitution.


THE NATURALIZATION ACT OF 1795 (http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/naturalization/naturalization_text.html)
An Act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization; and to repeal the Act heretofore passed on that Subject. For carrying into complete effect the power given by the constitution, to establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;

SECTION 1. BE it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, that any alien, being a free white person, may be admitted to become a citizen of the United States, or any of them, on the following conditions, and not otherwise. First, he shall have declared, on oath or affirmation, before the Supreme, Superior, District, or Circuit Court of some one of the states, or of the territories northwest or south of the Ohio River, or a Circuit or District Court of the United States, three years at least before his admission, that it was, bona fide, his intention to become a citizen of the United States, and to renounce forever all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whereof such alien may at that time be a citizen or subject. Secondly. He shall, at the time of his application to be admitted, declare on oath or affirmation before some one of the courts aforesaid that he has resided within the United States five years at least, and within the state or territory where such court is at the time held, one year at least; that he will support the Constitution of the United States; and that he does absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreigh prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whatever and particularly by name the prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty whereof he was before a citizen or subject; which proceedings shall be recorded by the clerk of the court. Thirdly. The court admitting such alien shall be satisfied that he has resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States five years. It shall further appear to their satisfaction that during that time he has behaved as a man of a good moral character, attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States, and well-disposed to the good order and happiness of the same. Fourthly. In case the alien applying to be admitted to citizenship shall have borne any hereditary title, or been of any of the orders of nobility, in the kingdom or state from which he came, he shall, in addition to the above requisites, make an express renunciation of his title or order of nobility in the court to which his application shall be made; which renunciation shall be recorded in the said court.

FREDERICK AUGUSTUS MUHLENBERG, Speaker of the House of Representatives.


JOHN ADAMS, Vice-President of the United States, And President of the Senate.

APPROVED, January the 29th, 1795: GEORGE WASHINGTON, President of the United States







Show me were the bible says we are all created equal?

"The mean IQ score among Blacks is approximately 85 and the mean IQ score among Whites is approximately 100; the mean IQ score of Hispanics is usually reported to be between the mean Black and White scores (Herrnstein and Murray report a mean "Latino" IQ of 89 in The Bell Curve (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=The+Bell+Curve&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1)). The mean score for people of East Asian (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=East+Asia&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1) and Jewish descent is usually higher than the mean score of Whites, but the extent of that difference is not precisely known. However, several studies place the median IQ of Ashkenazi (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ashkenazi&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1) Jews (who make up the overwhelming majority of American Jews (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jewish+American&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1)) at approximately one standard deviation above the mean for other Whites, with the primary Jewish advantage in verbal reasoning and the East Asian advantage primarily in spatial reasoning. In The Bell Curve, Herrnstein and Murray report mean IQ scores for East Asians and Jewish Americans of 106 and 113, respectively."</P>

You are clearly just a troll looking to stir up hate.

Congratulations on becoming the second most vomit inducing poster I have encountered yet on Tweb.

[dizzle]

got your sheets ready there old fella? I would love to pray for some poetic justice that you research your lineage and find out <gulp> that you have black ancestors.

[Darth Executor]

I don't see an answer to my question.

[theonomist]

[QUOTE=theonomist]

You are clearly just a troll looking to stir up hate.

Congratulations on becoming the second most vomit inducing poster I have encountered yet on Tweb.

How about these guys?

Thomas Jefferson: "When freed, [the negro] is to be removed beyond the reach of mixture."
Abraham Lincoln considered blacks to be-in his words-"a troublesome presence"

Andrew Jackson: "This is a country for white men, and by God as long as I am president, it shall be a government for white men...."

President James Garfield: "[I have] a strong feeling of repugnance when I think of the negroe being made our political equal and I would be glad if they could be colonized, sent to heaven, or got rid of in a decent way...."

Theodore Roosevelt thought blacks "a perfectly stupid race."

President William Howard Taft told a group of black college students "your race is adapted to be a race of farmers, first, last and for all times."

Woodrow Wilson said concerning Asians: "I stand for the national policy of exclusuion... We cannot make a homogoneaous population of a people who do not blend with the caucasion race.... Oriental coolieism will give us another race problem to solve and surely we have our lesson."

Harry Truman: "I am strongly of the opinion Negroes ought to be in Africa, yellow men is Asia and white men in Europe and America."


Please stop with the racist quotes or I will shut down this thread.

[technomage]

How about these guys?

Election to the presidency does not bestow infallability.

Theonomist, to be perfectly blunt--the Bible does not call for racial separation. Those who have told you that it does were wrong.

[dizzle]

That is easy - those men (with the exception of Lincoln whose comment smacks of decontextualization) made bigotted comments. I don't know of anyone who claims infallibility of men. Why try to be subtle, heck throw some Grand Dragon of the Klan quotes in there.

The smokescreen is completely gone that this particular "kinist" is not a racist.

[theonomist]

Whats the answer for the black crime problem in our country? Do we just need to "preach the gospel" more? Have these guys not heard the gospel? Is it because they have not seen the love of Christ? Is it because the white man has held down the negroe, and given him no opportunity? Whats the answer 2 chronicles 7:14?




Blacks murder more than 1,600 whites each year.
Blacks murder whites at 18 times the rate whites murder blacks.
Blacks murdered, raped, robbed, or assaulted about one million whites in 1992.
In the last 30 years, blacks committed 170 million violent and non-violent crimes against whites.
Blacks under 18 are more than 12 times more likely to be arrested for murder than whites under 18.
About 90% of the victims of interracial crimes are white.
Blacks commit 7.5 times more violent interracial crimes than whites, although whites outnumber blacks by 7 to 1.
On a per capita basis, blacks commit 50 times more violent crime than whites.
Black neighborhoods are 35 times more violent than white neighborhoods.
Of the 27 million nonviolent robberies in 1992, 31% (8.4 million) were committed by blacks against whites. Less than 2% were committed by whites against blacks.
Of the 6.6 million violent crimes, 20% (1.3 million) were interracial.
Of the the 1.3 million interracial violent crimes, 90% (1.17 million) are black against white.
In the past 20 years, violent crime increased four times faster than the population.
In the last 30 years (1964-94), more than 45,000 people were killed in interracial murders compared to 38,000 killed in Korea and 58,000 in Vietnam.



Please stop with the racist comments. Please do not quote more than two paragraphs from a copyrighted source and you must provide a source link.

[theonomist]

Those crime statistics I posted were so "racist". We should not be posting facts and asking questions now, that is so wrong!

Are you trying to get banned in one night???? READ the NOTICE! It says DON'T ARGUE WITH THE MODERATION IN THIS THREAD.

[technomage]

2 chronicles 7:14

Yes--that is precisely the answer. Humble ourselves. Not set ourselves above others based on race.

We are to humble ourselves--not others. We are to pray, not attempt to force others to pray. We are to seek God's face, not strive to press other faces into the dirt.

Most importantly, We--called by the name Christians--are to turn from our wicked ways.

Racism is wicked, Theonomist. Racism makes our own personal preferences more important than God's statement that in Him, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Turn from your hatred and your racism, Theonomist. Turn from your wickedness.

[theonomist]

Yes--that is precisely the answer. Humble ourselves. Not set ourselves above others based on race.

We are to humble ourselves--not others. We are to pray, not attempt to force others to pray. We are to seek God's face, not strive to press other faces into the dirt.

Most importantly, We--called by the name Christians--are to turn from our wicked ways.

Racism is wicked, Theonomist. Racism makes our own personal preferences more important than God's statement that in Him, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Turn from your hatred and your racism, Theonomist. Turn from your wickedness. Sorry I dont let witches interpret scripture for me, KINISM WILL RISE IN AMERICA! NEOBABLIST EQUALITARIANS WILL NOT STOP US DABNEY, RUSHDOONY AND THE APOSTLE PAUL!

"Just as there are in a military camp separate lines for each platoon and section, men are placed on the earth so that each nation may be content with its own boundaries. [In this manner,] God, by his providence reduces to order that which is confused." ~ John Calvin

"It may be said that, in general, nationalism is best for the world in its present state of sin and that to destroy those national boundaries is contrary to God's present will. It may also be said that God's wrath will fall on those people who by creating empires provide conditions that facilitate the increase of sin and so weaken men. God even causes empires to come to an end to hold down the increase of sin." ~ Harold Stigers

[dizzle]

Dork, A Cup of Mystery accepted Christ.

[technomage]

Sorry I dont let witches interpret scripture for me

I am no longer a witch--I am a Christian.

And I am not "interpreting" scripture for you--I am simply pointing you to our Authority, the Bible. The Bible which orders you to humble yourself, just as it orders me to do so.

Will you humble yourself, or will you insist on being "better" in your own eyes than others?

[theonomist]

I am no longer a witch--I am a Christian.

And I am not "interpreting" scripture for you--I am simply pointing you to our Authority, the Bible. The Bible which orders you to humble yourself, just as it orders me to do so.

Will you humble yourself, or will you insist on being "better" in your own eyes than others?
We must focus on what God commands of us, and to this end, it is wise to turn to Ezra and Nehemiah. Ezra 9-10 and Nehemiah 13 record the Hebrew men returning from exile and taking wives from foreign nations. Nehemiah "contended with them and cursed them, struck some of them and pulled out their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, 'You shall not give your daughters as wives to their sons, nor take their daughters for your sons or yourselves. Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things?" The common interpretation is that Christians should not marry non-Christians, yet if we understand such passages as Ezra 10 to condemn only inter-religious marriage, we will be unable to explain God's apparent change of heart in 1 Cor. 7:10-16. Ezra tells the people to divorce their unbelieving wives. Paul tells us not to divorce unbelieving wives. This is a contradiction, unless Ezra protested race-mixing. The goal in view must have been separation from foreign nations (races). Without such separation, the nation of Israel was sure to be corrupted by pagan influences, just as Solomon, the wisest man in the world, was corrupted by his foreign wives. The lesson to be learned is that interracial marriages are wrong because they lead men astray. God does not say that they are wrong if they lead men astray, or that marriage to foreign women is wrong unless the women agree to convert. Deuteronomy 28 tells us the inevitable price of disobedience: "The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail."

[theonomist]

"The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail."

Well we know, that could not happen in this country, it is not like the Jews and Arabs own all the hotel chains and other businesses, but what do I know, I am just your average "KKK White Supremisist".

[Sheepdog]

This thread is momentarily closed pending a moderator review.