JWs and Communion

[Sparko]

I heard that only the 144,000 are allowed to take communion but that the JW's regularly pass around the cup and juice anyway, but nobody takes it (unless there happens to be a 144K person there)

Is this true?

[Krusader]

I heard that only the 144,000 are allowed to take communion but that the JW's regularly pass around the cup and juice anyway, but nobody takes it (unless there happens to be a 144K person there)

Is this true?

Yes, this is very true. Also, how do they justify observing communion since Paul indicates that we are to observe this sacrament only until the Lord comes? According to the infallible Brooklyn anointed team, he came in 1914.

[Sparko]

Wonder what they would do if some christian was visiting that week and took the communion? LOL.

[Leroy]

I would love to go to a JW church service, just to take the cummunion. I wonder what they would do?

[Leroy]

Looks like you and I should go together Sparko

[Sparko]

I would love to go to a JW church service, just to take the cummunion. I wonder what they would do?

probably rush you to the hospital for eating a moldy cracker and 10 year old grape juice.

[furay]

I have been to a few of their "memorials". And I have witnessed an older lady who claims to be part of the 144k partake of communion. What makes her so special? Beats me.

[NonTrinitarian]

I would love to go to a JW church service, just to take the cummunion. I wonder what they would do?

Take you out back and beat the snot out of you. Just kidding. We wouldn't do anything. And it's real wine, not grape juice!

[Sparko]

Take you out back and beat the snot out of you. Just kidding. We wouldn't do anything. And it's real wine, not grape juice!

So how would the congregation actually determine who would be worthy of taking the communion or not? How do you determine if someone is part of the 144,000 or not?

And why do you even bother passing it around if nobody will take it?

[Aletheia]

So how would the congregation actually determine who would be worthy of taking the communion or not? How do you determine if someone is part of the 144,000 or not?

And why do you even bother passing it around if nobody will take it?

The congregation doesn't determine who might be a member of the 144k. It's up to the individual. It's said that God's spirit moves them to partake, giving indication that the individual is "annointed."

The bread and wine is passed just in case someone in the group feels that he/she is one of the 144k.

In my old congregation we had a lady that partook each year, but she was the only one that I knew of. The plates and the cup just flew down the rows till it got to her. Then everybody stretched to see her partake, even though we tried hard to make it look like we weren't.

[Sparko]

The congregation doesn't determine who might be a member of the 144k. It's up to the individual. It's said that God's spirit moves them to partake, giving indication that the individual is "annointed."

The bread and wine is passed just in case someone in the group feels that he/she is one of the 144k.

In my old congregation we had a lady that partook each year, but she was the only one that I knew of. The plates and the cup just flew down the rows till it got to her. Then everybody stretched to see her partake, even though we tried hard to make it look like we weren't.

aww that is so sad.

Communion is for all of Christ's followers. Although since I consider JW's a cult, I guess it is correct that they should not be taking it. Not even their 144K.

I invite all Jehovah's Witnesses to give up their cult and become real Christians and partake in babptism and communion with the whole bride of Christ. Join us!

[NonTrinitarian]

aww that is so sad.

Communion is for all of Christ's followers. Although since I consider JW's a cult, I guess it is correct that they should not be taking it. Not even their 144K.

I invite all Jehovah's Witnesses to give up their cult and become real Christians and partake in babptism and communion with the whole bride of Christ. Join us!

Thanks but worshipping a three headed god is not our cup of tea. We worship the One Christ worships.

[Sparko]

Thanks but worshipping a three headed god is not our cup of tea. We worship the One Christ worships.

You mean cup of wine, don't you?

And God is not some three headed God. That is another false misrepresentation of you guys. But that is for another thread.

Why do you think that you cannot take the communion? Where does it say in the bible that only the 144,000 can drink it?


And wouldn't the 144,000 have been taken up long ago? How can there be any left after 2000 years of Christianity? They would be spread so thin that you would likely never meet any, funny how they all seemed to end up in the 1st and 20th century huh?

[anewlife]

Real Wine? Interesting... Is the bread real manna?



I am not sure if you are being serious here...

:sigh:

Would this be considered a man-made tradition (144k only drinking the wine)?

:eek:

[NonTrinitarian]

Real Wine? Interesting... Is the bread real manna?



I am not sure if you are being serious here...

:sigh:
Why is real wine interesting? Did you think we didn't drink wine (versus grape juice)?



Would this be considered a man-made tradition (144k only drinking the wine)?

:eek:

Yes, it's a man-made tradition for only the 144K to drink. Charles Russell has visions from God, even while in the grave, and tells us all to not drink the wine. We listen to him because he is the true prophet. Praise be to Russell....Ahhhmen. (Bow your head in silence)

[Krusader]

Look this is not where I wanted this thread to go to (talking about alcoholism) I will just defend Crusader and say that Rutherford's drinking problem was widely known about.

According to an inside source, Edward J. Ford, Jr., (who presently writes under a pseudonym because of his remaining ties to the Watchtower Society) Rutherford began to "drink to excess" and, when drunk, "the headquarters staff felt the wrath of his cursing tongue. Old timers say his drinking was covered up, to the degree possible, by associates [and future Society presidents] Frederick W. Franz and Nathan H. Knorr. It was they who showed a brilliance for manipulation and who dealt with Rutherford’s further decline into the realm of drunkenness and erratic behavior by encouraging him to build himself a house in California to spend his remaining years ‘writing in the sun.’"33 Ford was a Witness for over four decades. He worked on staff in the Society’s Bethel headquarters in Brooklyn for a number of years. He recalls conversations with his Witness father and his own contacts with Watchtower Society leaders. A. H. Macmillan, who served in headquarters under three Watchtower presidents and was "known to Jehovah’s Witnesses all over the world,"34 was a frequent weekend visitor in the Ford home. Although Macmillan was a loyal organization man and supportive of Rutherford, "he was critical of his drunkenness and irrational conduct." Shortly after Rutherford’s death, Ford was present when Macmillan told his father that Beth-Sarim was built "for no purpose other than to get the drunken and declining Rutherford out of Brooklyn."35 This was also confirmed later to Ford by Society attorney Hayden Covington, who directed the legal department and was elected vice president after Rutherford’s death. Covington "quoted Franz as saying, ‘they built the judge a house out in California just to get him out of Bethel.’" Covington also told Ford that it was Franz who "concocted the cover story...saying that the house was for the ancient prophets due back ‘any day’ in the pre-Armageddon resurrection."36

Can Rutherford’s excessive drinking be confirmed from other sources besides those cited by Ford? Walter Salter writes of his purchases for Rutherford: " I, at your orders, would purchase cases of whiskey at $60.00 a case, and cases of brandy and other liquors, to say nothing of untold cases of beer. A bottle or two of liquor would not do; it was for THE PRESIDENT and nothing was too good for THE PRESIDENT."37 James Penton also cites evidence for Rutherford’s alcoholism in his book, Apocalypse Delayed.38

http://www.equip.org/free/DJ564.htm

---
Now let's let the matter drop. If you wish to continue it. please respond to this message in a new thread (you can copy and paste my post here and begin a new thread on the topic)




Thank you Sparko. Getting back on topic, would any JW care to defend the practice of continuing to hold a commemoration of the Lord's Supper when the Society teaches that Jesus returned in 1914? Paul says that the Lord's Supper does show the Lord's death until He comes. If He already came, there is no longer a need for Christians to have communion services, right?

[anewlife]

Why is real wine interesting? Did you think we didn't drink wine (versus grape juice)?

I don't know... I don't drink the stuff so to me I thought it was interesting that the wine was real but maybe not the manna. Some fundamentalists actually think it is blood and the body of Christ in a literal sense. I also find that rather interesting (well maybe amusing rather than interesting)


Yes, it's a man-made tradition for only the 144K to drink. Charles Russell has visions from God, even while in the grave, and tells us all to not drink the wine. We listen to him because he is the true prophet. Praise be to Russell....Ahhhmen. (Bow your head in silence)

Interesting... I do not believe in modern-day prophets myself. I hold the soft-cessationist view. I have never heard of prophets speaking from the grave.

:blush:

[Slowly backing away from the post]

[Xmansmommy]

Thank you Sparko. Getting back on topic, would any JW care to defend the practice of continuing to hold a commemoration of the Lord's Supper when the Society teaches that Jesus returned in 1914? Paul says that the Lord's Supper does show the Lord's death until He comes. If He already came, there is no longer a need for Christians to have communion services, right?

You might want to ask that of partial preterists as well.

[Krusader]

You might want to ask that of partial preterists as well.

Don't you mean full preterists? Or, hyper preterists?

[Xmansmommy]

No, I meant partial preterists. Because they are likely to have the same response as the JWs.

[Krusader]

No, I meant partial preterists. Because they are likely to have the same response as the JWs.

But, unlike JWs, partial preterists do not believe that the Lord has returned yet, do they? Therefore, it would be legitimate for a semi-preterist to celebrate the Lord's Supper.

[Sparko]

OK I had all of the alcoholism posts split to a new thread. Please keep that out of this thread. This is about communion.

[Xmansmommy]

But, unlike JWs, partial preterists do not believe that the Lord has returned yet, do they? Therefore, it would be legitimate for a semi-preterist to celebrate the Lord's Supper.

I don't want to take the thread any further off topic but I'd say that I'm not sure in what way JWs believe Jesus returned. But partial preterists believe that he returned in judgement in AD 70 and also that God's plans will come to a culmination at some future date.

[anewlife]

I am a partial Preterist... I still partake in the communion up until Jesus returns. LOL, I see what you are saying that if Jesus did return in 1914 or whenever the JW stated. I am sure they meant sprititually (uh-huh), but I will let the JW articulate that.

A partial Preterist (well at least myself) only believe in the judgement in 70AD you know the judgement and poppin a wheelie on a cloud, and the binding of the strong one, Amill thingy...:teeth:

[Krusader]

I don't want to take the thread any further off topic but I'd say that I'm not sure in what way JWs believe Jesus returned. But partial preterists believe that he returned in judgement in AD 70 and also that God's plans will come to a culmination at some future date.

If I understand preterism correctly, then hyper-preterists believe that Christ Second Coming occured in 70 AD. Semi-preterists, or partial preterists, still look for a Second Coming. However, perhaps I'm wrong on this - Dee Dee could answer maybe?

[Sparko]

If I understand preterism correctly, then hyper-preterists believe that Christ Second Coming occured in 70 AD. Semi-preterists, or partial preterists, still look for a Second Coming. However, perhaps I'm wrong on this - Dee Dee could answer maybe?

from what I understand that is correct. The hyper prets believe all prophesy has been fulfilled. Partial believe in a judgement visit from Christ in 70AD but that he will return again at the end of days to set up his kingdom on earth and destroy evil.

From what I understand, JW's have a similar but different take. They believe that Christ came back invisibly in 1914 to set up his kingdom but they are never very clear on what that means. They still believe in a future coming of Christ at Armageddon when he will set up his earthly rule and resurrect the dead and judge the wicked.

So depending on how they interpret Jesus' words about doing communion until he 'returns' would determine whether they think they should still be doing it.

I thik they do believe that all of the 144,000 were selected by 1914, and that that generation will not pass away before Christ comes back (again) so I see a few problems:

Pretty soon there will not be anyone left who was born in 1914 so that means if Christ hasn't come back by, oh say, 2034 (if you imagine someone might still be alive at 120 years old) then they will have to come up with some other rationalization why their dates were off again, or decide that 1914 was not really when Jesus came back, or come up with some other way to keep new blood running the watchtower or stop passing the communion around.

side issue for any JW: Does the leader of the WTBTS have to be one of the 144,000? and am I right that the 144,000 were all chosen/born by 1914?

[NonTrinitarian]

from what I understand that is correct. The hyper prets believe all prophesy has been fulfilled. Partial believe in a judgement visit from Christ in 70AD but that he will return again at the end of days to set up his kingdom on earth and destroy evil.

From what I understand, JW's have a similar but different take. They believe that Christ came back invisibly in 1914 to set up his kingdom but they are never very clear on what that means. They still believe in a future coming of Christ at Armageddon when he will set up his earthly rule and resurrect the dead and judge the wicked.

So depending on how they interpret Jesus' words about doing communion until he 'returns' would determine whether they think they should still be doing it.

I thik they do believe that all of the 144,000 were selected by 1914, and that that generation will not pass away before Christ comes back (again) so I see a few problems:

Pretty soon there will not be anyone left who was born in 1914 so that means if Christ hasn't come back by, oh say, 2034 (if you imagine someone might still be alive at 120 years old) then they will have to come up with some other rationalization why their dates were off again, or decide that 1914 was not really when Jesus came back, or come up with some other way to keep new blood running the watchtower or stop passing the communion around.

side issue for any JW: Does the leader of the WTBTS have to be one of the 144,000? and am I right that the 144,000 were all chosen/born by 1914?

The 144,000 are supposedly all selected but if one fell away, another would have to be selected. They don't get their reward until they die faithfully. (We're not a once saved-always saved group) I believe all the members of the governing body (about 12-18 people) claim to be the 144,000. Also, JW's used to teach that the generation that was alive in 1914 would still be around when Jesus returned but that has since changed. To me 1914 is a non-slavation issue. I know Paul and Peter didn't know anything about it so I don't get too worked up about what JW's say about it. IE, I'm not so certain of the 1914 thing. To me there are far more important issues like who is God, etc.

[Sparko]

The 144,000 are supposedly all selected but if one fell away, another would have to be selected. They don't get their reward until they die faithfully. (We're not a once saved-always saved group) I believe all the members of the governing body (about 12-18 people) claim to be the 144,000. Also, JW's used to teach that the generation that was alive in 1914 would still be around when Jesus returned but that has since changed. To me 1914 is a non-slavation issue. I know Paul and Peter didn't know anything about it so I don't get too worked up about what JW's say about it. IE, I'm not so certain of the 1914 thing. To me there are far more important issues like who is God, etc.

To me you are dismissing some very important doctrine that the watchtower teaches. It could potentially prove or disprove them as truly the 'mouthpiece of Jehovah' and his 'chosen prophetic channel' - If they have been teaching that the 144,000 have all been selected and that the generation that was alive in 1914 shall not pass away before Christ comes, those are some very concrete teachings that deal directly with the 'government' of heaven and the coming kingdom. They are some of the very basic doctrines of the watchtower society that distinguish them from all other sects. To just handwave it away as not important, either by you or even by them, is to try to bury the facts under the rug (pay no attention to the man behing the curtain!)

If they have taught that Christ came back in 1914 and will return before that generation dies, and it doesn't happen then they are false teachers. If they say that the 144,000 have all been chosen and then later you see young people claiming to be part of that group, then they are again shown to be false teachers. Do you think that Jehovah doesn't know the future? Why would he choose a person to be part of the 144,000 if he knew they would 'fall away' later? How could they even be said to be part of the 144,000 if they are never going to make it to heaven? As far as Jehovah is concerned, they are not part of the 144,000 if they never make it to heaven. If they will fall away, then they are not even SAVED rigtht now are they? They are basically fooling themselves and you. You could potentially have unsaved apostate people leading your religion right now, and Jehovah KNOWS about it! To believe otherwise is to believe that Jehovah does not know the future and that he makes bad choices by choosing people who will fall away.

[NonTrinitarian]

To me you are dismissing some very important doctrine that the watchtower teaches. It could potentially prove or disprove them as truly the 'mouthpiece of Jehovah' and his 'chosen prophetic channel' - If they have been teaching that the 144,000 have all been selected and that the generation that was alive in 1914 shall not pass away before Christ comes, those are some very concrete teachings that deal directly with the 'government' of heaven and the coming kingdom. They are some of the very basic doctrines of the watchtower society that distinguish them from all other sects. To just handwave it away as not important, either by you or even by them, is to try to bury the facts under the rug (pay no attention to the man behing the curtain!)

If they have taught that Christ came back in 1914 and will return before that generation dies, and it doesn't happen then they are false teachers. If they say that the 144,000 have all been chosen and then later you see young people claiming to be part of that group, then they are again shown to be false teachers. Do you think that Jehovah doesn't know the future? Why would he choose a person to be part of the 144,000 if he knew they would 'fall away' later? How could they even be said to be part of the 144,000 if they are never going to make it to heaven? As far as Jehovah is concerned, they are not part of the 144,000 if they never make it to heaven. If they will fall away, then they are not even SAVED rigtht now are they? They are basically fooling themselves and you. You could potentially have unsaved apostate people leading your religion right now, and Jehovah KNOWS about it! To believe otherwise is to believe that Jehovah does not know the future and that he makes bad choices by choosing people who will fall away.

You want to narrow that done a little? There's a number of topics you just addressed. I assume you are a once saved always saved guy?

[Aletheia]

side issue for any JW: Does the leader of the WTBTS have to be one of the 144,000? and am I right that the 144,000 were all chosen/born by 1914?

The definition of "generation" was changed back around 1995. :ahem: The Watchman Expositor: Watchtower Redefines 1914 Generation (http://www.watchman.org/jw/1914hst1.htm)

Calling it a "more precise viewpoint," the Society attempts to salvage portions of their earlier 1914 doctrine while avoiding its obvious weakness (Watchtower, 1 November 1995, p. 20). They still teach that 1914 started the "last generation," but they have changed their definition of the word "generation." Rather than a reference to people who were living in 1914, the term generation now means an unspecified length of time that is relatively short "compared with the thousands of years of Satan's rulership" (Ibid., pp. 18-19).

This new doctrine buys the Watchtower some much needed time. In a telephone interview with Watchman Fellowship, Malcolm Allen, a local Watchtower leader, could give no "biblical" reason why Armageddon could not be hundreds of years away according to this new interpretation. By solving one problem the Watchtower has created several others. Critics now have more opportunity to raise questions concerning false doctrine and failed prophecy.

Even the Watchtower's staunchest supporters may have reason to be troubled by the new doctrine. Many loyal witnesses, quite naturally, have made important personal education and career decisions based on the "Creator's promise" that the end would come within the lifetime of those alive in 1914. It is easy to see how plans concerning children, savings, finance, and even life insurance would be greatly influenced by the promise that God's "peaceful and secure new world" would arrive during the life span of those alive in 1914. They would have every right to be upset or have doubts concerning their leaders after they announce this "more precise viewpoint."




(http://www.watchman.org/jw/1914hst1.htm)

[Sparko]

You want to narrow that done a little? There's a number of topics you just addressed. I assume you are a once saved always saved guy?

Are you just trying to avoid the issues?

Lets try again:

Do you think that Jehovah doesn't know the future? Why would he choose a person to be part of the 144,000 if he knew they would 'fall away' later? How could they even be said to be part of the 144,000 if they are never going to make it to heaven? As far as Jehovah is concerned, they are not part of the 144,000 if they never make it to heaven. If they will fall away, then they are not even SAVED rigtht now are they? They are basically fooling themselves and you. You could potentially have unsaved apostate people leading your religion right now, and Jehovah KNOWS about it! To believe otherwise is to believe that Jehovah does not know the future and that he makes bad choices by choosing people who will fall away.

This has nothing to do with traditional "eternal salvation" - This has to do with the WTBTS claiming to speak for Jehovah as his chosen channel and mouthpiece. If the WTBTS can't even be sure who really is and isn't going to be part of the 144,000 in heaven then how can they claim to know anything about what Jehovah speaks?

I assume that Jehovah will know if Person B will end up as one of the 144,000 after he dies, right? If Person B will fall away before dying, but now claims to be one of the 144,000, he is just fooling himself and the WTBTS. Jehovah already knows he will fall away and will NOT be one of the 144,000. Why doesn't Jehovah tell the WTBTS this? There could be leaders in the WTBTS right now that will fall away, and Jehovah has not told them about it.

This is huge gaping hole in the WTBTS claims to be a mouthpiece for Jehovah.

[serapha]

I heard that only the 144,000 are allowed to take communion but that the JW's regularly pass around the cup and juice anyway, but nobody takes it (unless there happens to be a 144K person there)

Is this true?

Hi there!

:hi:


The official website tells us that 16,383,333 people attended the memorial service in 2005, and of that number, 8524 were partakers. That's .04% of those attending.

I attended the memorial service a couple of years ago, and I found it very educational concerning the JW teachings on the memorial service. I could never get used to being referred to as a "slave" though.

~serapha~