do modern christians actually believe in witchcraft?

[chickenman]

I know, back in the day, that certain groups of christians were fond of burning people who they suspected of being witches. Much like doctors were fond of giving people mercury to cure their ailments. But I'd assumed that belief in witchcraft died along with belief in the curative powers of mercury.

So do christians still believe in supernatural powers wielded by witches?

As a skeptic I find claims of witchcraft more amusing than scary. Which is why I have a hard time understanding what all the furore over harry potter is about. Why would a parent be concerned about their child reading fiction about witchcraft when it plainly does not exist? Surely parents can explain the difference between reality and make-believe ?

[AcousticJS]

I believe that people who are involved in witchcraft are calling upon the power of demons to achieve what they want done. Now, the church doesn't haven't the right or the mandate to go around burning people who do this - the only Biblical precedent is to cast whatever demons there are out and tell them the gospel.

I'm sure some Christians probably wouldn't believe in witchcraft now a days, but if you take the Bible seriously it leads to a belief in demons that are active, even in today's world.

God bless
Jon

[Solly]

If you accept a reductionist materialist view of reality, then of course there is no place for witchcraft (using that term in its broadest sense of intereaction with non-physical powers - sentient or otherwise). However, most of humanity believes otherwise, and always has done, whether it is simple superstitions or those actively engaged in "witchcraft", shamanism, mysticism, or whatever. I am not of the James Randi school of scepticism - if I can fake it, it must be a fake - and had my run in with some things in the past, first or second hand. Scientists just don't seem to have done a great job convincing us of the materialist agenda, and people still flock to buy the Exorcist video, read Carl Jung, and sign up for Feng Shui.

slly5

[FirstSunday33ad]

Today @ 02:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155054#post155054)
chickenman:

I know, back in the day, that certain groups of christians were fond of burning people who they suspected of being witches. Much like doctors were fond of giving people mercury to cure their ailments. But I'd assumed that belief in witchcraft died along with belief in the curative powers of mercury.

So do christians still believe in supernatural powers wielded by witches?

As a skeptic I find claims of witchcraft more amusing than scary. Which is why I have a hard time understanding what all the furore over harry potter is about. Why would a parent be concerned about their child reading fiction about witchcraft when it plainly does not exist? Surely parents can explain the difference between reality and make-believe ?

Speaking as a modern Christian, no I don't believe in witchcraft.

But I do know that there are people who like to pretend that they are witches.

And I do know that these nutbars are in schools and in the popular media.

Speaking as a parent, I don't want my child to grow up believing a group of fruitloops have "special powers" or "secret mojo". Nor do I want her to think dancing in the forest while howling at the moon will do anything for her - outside of getting her a cold.

So I am careful about the stuff I let her read - and that includes dear old Harry and his school of wizards.

[Bill the Cat]

As a youth pastor, I teach kids who are surrounded by Wiccans. They are out there. One of my best leaders has a sister who renounced Christianity for her fiancee, who is a wiccan. Now she is a full fledged wiccan, but stays away from me, cause she knows I know more about it than she does...

[ladyepiskopos]

I believe that witchcraft is real. Before I came to the Lord I practiced black magic, mind control and transcendental meditation. I read tarot cards (quite accurately), scried, and did something called "dowsing". I cast spells on people that worked. Of course none of these things can harm a spirit filled believer who is covered by the blood of Jesus-- but they can impact a non believer.

All of these powers are linked directly to demonic spirits. I had actual conversations with demons. I saw them come out of me when I was being delivered.

The greatest lie the devil has ever told humanity is that he doesn't exist. Modern witches depend on your ignorance and disbelief. You may not believe in the powers of darkness but they certainly believe in you.

Make sure you've covered by the blood.

[Ethos]

I am a devout and pious Christian, as well as an initiate of Gods alchemical wisdom... Some could (and have) construe this as of the "occult", putting it in a category of witchcraft although it is not, it is an art of the Heavenly Spirit, but I wont delve in to such an extremely complex subject here... Especially one so close to my heart that will leave me subject to much criticism....

In answer to your question- yes, "witchcraft" does exist... There is much proof of this in the bible, you need not look any further than the magi in Exodus, with their "mysterious" arts that could not rival Gods...


But in the end, the most prodigious and venerable of powers comes from just one source, and one source only, and that is God... That is why the magi's invokings caused only a stir in comparison to the Lords great displays, and the people began to fear him, and know that his name is the Lord. Amen :O)

[chickenman]

perhaps i'm just looking in the wrong places for proof

how about a double blind experimentally controlled trial to detect whether its actually possible to cast spells on people that have any effect at all?

otherwise i'm inclined to believe its all hogwash

[Ethos]

Yesterday @ 11:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156833#post156833)
chickenman:

perhaps i'm just looking in the wrong places for proof

how about a double blind experimentally controlled trial to detect whether its actually possible to cast spells on people that have any effect at all?

otherwise i'm inclined to believe its all hogwash

And there is no reason that you should believe in it... It has nothing to do with you :O) You are of the Lord, and that is all you need to know right? Amen!

[Jacob]

07-22-2003 @ 01:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155054#post155054)
chickenman:
So do christians still believe in supernatural powers wielded by witches?

Why does it matter what we believe about "witches"? Ask a witch.

However, I do believe in demonic powers which may manifest themselves through people who are "witches".

As a skeptic I find claims of witchcraft more amusing than scary. Which is why I have a hard time understanding what all the furore over harry potter is about. Why would a parent be concerned about their child reading fiction about witchcraft when it plainly does not exist? Surely parents can explain the difference between reality and make-believe ?

Witchcraft in the Harry Potter mode may exist or have existed, or it may not. I think it is mostly just Hollywood following up on older myths. But the concern is that these movies make "witchcraft" look cool, which may entice some to pursue modern forms of "witchcraft" (like wiccan). Also, I've been told that they promote the idea that some immoral conduct as being acceptable, as long as the reason/result is good.

Jacob

[SlaveofChrist]

I am convinced that modern witchcraft and demonic activity is around today. When you spend as much time as I do in Utah and in front of Mormon temples, you come to understand. A good friend of mine is an exorcist, and if it doesn't exist then he must be insane. There is no evidence whatsoever of him being insane, so it must exist.

[chickenman]

A good friend of mine is an exorcist, and if it doesn't exist then he must be insane. There is no evidence whatsoever of him being insane, so it must exist.

thats unassailable logic

[FirstSunday33ad]

Yesterday @ 01:30 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156833#post156833)
chickenman:

perhaps i'm just looking in the wrong places for proof

how about a double blind experimentally controlled trial to detect whether its actually possible to cast spells on people that have any effect at all?

otherwise i'm inclined to believe its all hogwash

:thumb:

Agreed.

And I like the double-blind study to expose these so-called witches.

[Thomas2003]

perhaps i'm just looking in the wrong places for proof

how about a double blind experimentally controlled trial to detect whether its actually possible to cast spells on people that have any effect at all?

otherwise i'm inclined to believe its all hogwash

Of course, if you want to hold to an unbiblical definition of witchcraft to disprove it in terms of the Bible, anyone can do that about any subject they desire.

You might try honesty and dealing with God's Law as an upright person. Are you suggesting that God's prohibition on witchcraft is a some "primitive" idea, thus the real intention of your post is to practice witchcraft and blaspheme God?

In Scripture God outlaws all attempts to control the future or other people by force and coercion in contradiction to His Law. Witchcraft is a desire to force the future to conform to man's will by means prohibited by God, it has a long association with murder and anarchy. It is an attempt to play god and force lawlessness on to every man, onto God and onto nature.

According to Buckland in Ancient and Modern Witchcraft, "Behind the magic of witchcraft is a belief that power comes from the human body."

It ascribes ultimacy to the individual who proclaims himself a witch and attempts to capture power and bring ultimacy to himself in warfare against God and man. It seeks power by lawless control.

I think Gary North correctly explains the subject in "None Dare Call it Witchcraft", wherein he writes, witchcraft is humanism come to flower, humanism in its logical implications. It has another law, education, social and sexual standard, another view of property and taxation, another view of life than the Biblical Faith holds to. It is total treason and revolution to a Christian order.

For this reason God has instituted the penalty as a capital crime, for the same exact reason if you were to war against the United States, or give aid and comfort to its enemies - you would be subject to treason and the death penalty.

Cordially,

Thomas

[chickenman]

It seems you're saying that witchcraft is merely disobeying the bible and the tenets of the christian faith (humanists),
rather than the possession of supernatural powers.

well, weigh me against a duck, it appears that i'm a witch

[Thomas2003]

It seems you're saying that witchcraft is merely disobeying the bible and the tenets of the christian faith (humanists),
rather than the possession of supernatural powers.

well, weigh me against a duck, it appears that i'm a witch

Scripture doesn't hold that men obtain super natural powers, but that this worship gives authority to satan to manifest himself through them. Divination, socerey, witchcraft, necromancy - all of these things are prohibited in Scripture; they may vary in certain activities but are all the same worship.

The very basis of Biblical Faith is that we have one God and can worship no other God. (Exodus 20:1-6)

It just depends on whether you want God's blessing or cursing.

Cordially,

Thomas

[darcutm]

I think if you read the Bible you'll see that there is power individuals used that are from the devil, and if you read scripture concerning the "end times" they will escalate, not diminish.

I know people who were missionaries in Uganda and said that the demonic forces there were so strong, witchdoctors would fly thorugh the air.

Today in the US Wicca is growing more and more, especially among young kids in high school. In a Tulsa high school, a wiccan student got in serious trouble for claiming to put a spell on a teacher, when the teacher upset her.

As a believer, I read the Bible and see that God's power has always been greater than the devils power...Remember the pharoah's magicians who threw down their rods and they turned into snakes. Then Moses threw down his rod and also turned into a snake, but then Moses' snake consumed the others.

My missionary friends were at the place of a witchdoctor one time and he, trying to prove his power, laid on a table and began to float and levitate...The wife walked over to him, put her hands on him and said "In the Name of Jesus," and the man hit the table with a thud!

I do believe there is something to be had with the growing "trend" in Wicca out there, but I"m not worried about any spells or anything....How are you going to curse someone God's blessed?!? Balaam tried that, and said "How can I curse whom God has blessed?" (Numbers 22)...YOU CAN"T CURSE WHOM GOD HAS BLESSED! Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me. Goodness, goodness, good things follow me, and every now and then they overtake me!!

[David O]

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, we are a rebellious nation. Our children are astonishingly rebellious. Paul was given an "angel of Satan" to buffet him. We are more than conquerors, but it has been given to Satan to make "war on the saints," and to deceive, if possible, even the elect. A curse without a cause cannot alight, be we Christians often give causes through our arrogant and self-serving actions. It may be easier to steal, kill, and destroy, if you can do it secretly, but throughout history and still in other countries (that haven't fallen for modern philosophy,) demons are noticed and even served. There are a lot of pagan folks in the USA. Many of them come from the families of church people. They weren't taught respect for authority, and so live out logically what they were shown. When you announce that "no one is the boss of me," demons show up to lay claim. Authority is a covering and sign on your head that marks you as taken.

[BohemianXQueen]

Way back when when they burned "witches", they thought of those witches as being Devil worshippers. Those "witches" don't really have ties t modern day Wiccans or Witches.

Modern day witchcraft (which is what conservative Christians fear) is real because it is a religion. True, we cannot just say "alakazam!" and turn someone into a frog. But Witchcraft is as real as Christianity because it is a religion. But you must understand that the mondern day witchcraft that I speak of is not Harry Potter 'craft', it's an actual earth-based belief system that is unique to the individual. Because the individual has a relation with the Earth (also called the Mother Goddess) just like Chrisitians have their relationship with God.

[Sheepdog]

the problem is, if Christianity is true, then all witchcraft, Wiccan or otherwise, finds its power from the Devil. so, regardless of how Wiccans state what they think, a Christian is obliged by one's theology to reject it as being from the evil one.

just FYI.

and, unless you are using an unusual definition, not all religion is real.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Today @ 10:15 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=311312#post311312)
Sheepdog:

the problem is, if Christianity is true, then all witchcraft, Wiccan or otherwise, finds its power from the Devil. so, regardless of how Wiccans state what they think, a Christian is obliged by one's theology to reject it as being from the evil one.
I respect that Christians tend to believe that Wiccans are being duped by the devil into thinking that he doesn't exist. Christians are as entitled to be wrong as anyone else. What gets me is the people who call us Devil Worshippers. There's a huge difference between assuming we inadvertently worship something the true nature of which we're unaware of... and claiming that we are deliberately worshipping the Devil.

and, unless you are using an unusual definition, not all religion is real.
Exactly how do you define a "real" religion? If a real religion is one that is accurate and correct in all its tenets, then I'd say it's a safe bet that there is no such religion. And if a real religion is one that has the exclusive corner on Truth, then I'd say it's a safe bet there is no such religion.

[Durthorin]

Today @ 12:20 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=311447#post311447)
Eireann:



Exactly how do you define a "real" religion? If a real religion is one that is accurate and correct in all its tenets, then I'd say it's a safe bet that there is no such religion. And if a real religion is one that has the exclusive corner on Truth, then I'd say it's a safe bet there is no such religion.


http://au.geocities.com/taspagans/littlewitchandchristian.htm

I usually suggest a Christian read this...I've found it helpful

[The_Chosen]

Chickenman,

What I can tell you as a questioning Christian is this: I've looked into Wicca before, partly out of curiosity, partly out of real interest to see if there was anything behind it. My cousin was a practicing Wiccan for a few years and I can only tell you what I have a seen. I know what many Christians say about demons working through witches and I know what Wiccans say about the craft being free of such things. Personally, I don't know what I believe about where the power Wiccans have comes from. A year or so ago, I would have said that it was from the devil. But I have studied about the craft and, while it may be of the devil, it is not through their knowledge. I have never actually seen a spell performed, I only know what I have heard and I don't know why Wiccans would lie about things when they were talking amoungst themselves and not trying to impress anyone or prove a point. So I will say that I believe that they are still many practicing witches in the world and that they do have real power. Where it comes from, I will not comment on right now.
As to the fuss over Harry Potter, this has always amused me because parents seem so concerned about it when most of what occurs in Harry Potter is not now, nor was it ever very heavily practiced. It is more of fantasy stories and fiction than real life based upon actual practice of witches. I cannot speak for the parents who dislike Harry Potter but I can say that I have no problems with it and don't really understand the reasons of the parents that do.
I don't know if that was any help but there you have what I think about the matter.

Danielle

[Sheepdog]

11-24-2003 @ 12:20 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=311447#post311447)
Eireann:


I respect that Christians tend to believe that Wiccans are being duped by the devil into thinking that he doesn't exist. Christians are as entitled to be wrong as anyone else. What gets me is the people who call us Devil Worshippers. There's a huge difference between assuming we inadvertently worship something the true nature of which we're unaware of... and claiming that we are deliberately worshipping the Devil.

fair is fair. i don't think you guys are deliberately worshipping the devil (i doubt anyone would deliberately, other than in jest).

Exactly how do you define a "real" religion? If a real religion is one that is accurate and correct in all its tenets, then I'd say it's a safe bet that there is no such religion. And if a real religion is one that has the exclusive corner on Truth, then I'd say it's a safe bet there is no such religion.

you need to understand my comment in context: i was refuting the notion that all (or even more than one) religion is real. this cannot be the case, or else the whole universe is nothing but cognative dissonance (there is one God/many gods/no gods/you are god/etc. no more than one can be right, by law of contradiction).

i don't think all the tenets of a religion have to be true, or else a good majority of Christians are way off track. i'd focus on whether the essential doctrines or the core beliefs are real.

[Undomiel]

07-24-2003 @ 06:30 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156833#post156833)
chickenman:

perhaps i'm just looking in the wrong places for proof

how about a double blind experimentally controlled trial to detect whether its actually possible to cast spells on people that have any effect at all?

otherwise i'm inclined to believe its all hogwash

I have a theory that might be of assistance here. Since the premise is forces of evil don't reveal their hand if it might prove they exist to someone who doesn't believe they do, your tests will tend to be negative and the results less than satisfactory. Rather, try the opposite and see how fast you get their (forces of evil) attention. If they believe you are being swayed to seek life rather than death, there's every likelihood they will reveal their hand out of desperation to keep you blinded to their presence in the world in the other matters of your life. They want to nip it in the bud before it grows. They will risk a few well-placed deterents, if it means keeping you blinded to their presence from there on out. So, as part and parcel of your study, I suggest you earnestly pray to Jesus for salvation, for forgiveness of your sins, and acknowledge His deity. Then read the bible, absorb Jesus' messages (side note: none of this can hurt you, btw, and will most likely get you the answer you are looking for).

Since salvation is an ongoing process, watch for telltale signs any time after the moment you've sincerely prayed for salvation. My experiences might be different from yours, but we all have some very interesting stories to tell about what happened from the moment we received salvation. You'll see what I mean once you're there.

[bar Jonah]

ladyepiskopos:

I believe that witchcraft is real. Before I came to the Lord I practiced black magic, mind control and transcendental meditation. I read tarot cards (quite accurately), scried, and did something called "dowsing". I cast spells on people that worked. Of course none of these things can harm a spirit filled believer who is covered by the blood of Jesus-- but they can impact a non believer.

All of these powers are linked directly to demonic spirits. I had actual conversations with demons. I saw them come out of me when I was being delivered.

The greatest lie the devil has ever told humanity is that he doesn't exist. Modern witches depend on your ignorance and disbelief. You may not believe in the powers of darkness but they certainly believe in you.

Make sure you've covered by the blood.
Agreed. As someone who was a former witch like yourself, I know there is such a thing as real, supernatural witchcraft. I personally experienced such things, just as you did.

Granted, I strongly believe that 90%-99% of what Wiccans do today is either non-falsifiable, a self-fulfilling prophecy or various tricks and illusions.

But there is definitely some real stuff. Can I prove it? No. You have but my eyewitness testimony, as someone who not only saw it but did it. (And I am very skeptical by nature.)

But you don't really have to take my word for it. The Bible makes it quite clear that real witchcraft exists. Did not the Pharaoh's men perform supernatural miracles in the name of their pagan god?

Exodus 7:12
For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

[Undomiel]

07-22-2003 @ 07:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155054#post155054)
chickenman:

I know, back in the day, that certain groups of christians were fond of burning people who they suspected of being witches. Much like doctors were fond of giving people mercury to cure their ailments. But I'd assumed that belief in witchcraft died along with belief in the curative powers of mercury.

So do christians still believe in supernatural powers wielded by witches?

As a skeptic I find claims of witchcraft more amusing than scary. Which is why I have a hard time understanding what all the furore over harry potter is about. Why would a parent be concerned about their child reading fiction about witchcraft when it plainly does not exist? Surely parents can explain the difference between reality and make-believe ?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with Harry Potter on the surface. The problem we had with it was not the material by itself, but the effect it had on one of our kids who became obsessed with it. She read it over and over again (all the books to date), and began to dream about it -- negative dreams filled with weird, scary imagery involving HP characters and dark, sinister figures that had her more freaked out than any other nightmare she had reported to me in the past. So I suggested she just put them away, stop reading them, and explained why it might be a good idea to do so. It isn't the books, it's what our subconscious minds and spirits do with the information in the books. In her case, it wasn't a good thing, but for someone else it might've been just another kids story like Disney's countless fantasies involving witches and wizards and so forth. I'm not entirely sure why she had obsessed over it, but I saw the results of that obsession.

[guym]

By the way that witchcraft is defined here, I'm wondering why you don't call Doctors witches? They manifest the will of man against the will of God through their chemical concoctions and brews, preventing death, disease and sickness.

Or isn't that what many "witches" did also? It's my understanding that wiccan witches are about herbal healing. Are all healers witches and thus tools of the devil? What about engineers, psychologists, and anyone who shapes the world to the will of man?

Personally, I'd like to see a study of families that prevent their children from reading Harry Potter and seeing Snow White, so they don't see "witches" even in those unrealistic interpretations. I'd bet that a great portion of them end up with rebellious teen aged "goth" kids and pseudo witches.

Also, if we are to ignore witches because they are pagan, are we to ignore christmas trees, santa claus, mistletoe, halloween and so many other traditions and heritage that we have?

[bar Jonah]

Guym, as a former Wiccan witch, I'm here to tell you that they do a heck of a lot more than "herbal healing." :ahem:

They worship pagan Gods, perform occult pagan rituals, practice witchcraft in any number of forms as they cast magic spells for a variety of purposes.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Today @ 04:42 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=360505#post360505)
RightIdea:

They worship pagan Gods, perform occult pagan rituals, practice witchcraft in any number of forms as they cast magic spells for a variety of purposes.
None of which is necessarily a bad thing. Except for a few who actually believe in multiple deities, the gods are mostly archetypes for aspects of deity rather than being separate and distinct deities themselves. Granted there are some who are true polytheists, but they seem to be among the minority.

As for "occult pagan" rituals, they bear little or no resemblance to actual pagan rituals of old. And Christians have been rather irresponsible with the way they've maligned the occult. "Occult" is a dirty word coming from a Christian. The only problem is, the definition they apply to the word isn't even close to what it really means. It doesn't mean evil, it doesn't even have connotations to ethics of any flavor. It simply means "hidden." Any religious faith that practices or tries to unfold, in their way, the hidden mysteries of life, that religion is occult. Christian practices are as occult as any other. The inability of Christians to be honest about that has no bearing on the reality of the matter.

[bar Jonah]

Of course it isn't wrong from your persective, Eire. You're a witch, that goes without saying.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Today @ 12:00 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=360850#post360850)
RightIdea:

Of course it isn't wrong from your persective, Eire. You're a witch, that goes without saying.

That doesn't address the irresponsible malignment of all things occult that many Christians tend to do. That has nothing to do with what religion I personally practice.

[bar Jonah]

It's true that many Christians misrepresent things like Wicca, I agree.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Do I, as a Christian, believe in witchcraft today?

Yes, certainly. I firmly believe that there exist inimical spiritual powers in the world, which can be contacted and which can perform things that a materialist would say are impossible.

Do I believe that everyone that calls herself a witch today, is one?

No, not at all. This, of course, easily explains why double-blind testing is not necessarily going to show anything: for a DB test to work, at least one test subject has to be guaranteed to be a non-control. You can't just grab any self-proclaimed Wiccan, witch or Satanist, test them, and say, "See, that proves that it doesn't work." You also have to take into account that even if your test subject happens to be a true witch, (s)he is not in control of the powers that are manifested, regardless of any ideas to the contrary. Witchcraft works by contacting a spirit (demon) and asking, begging, or bribing them to do what the witch wants -- and the demons have their own agenda, which definitely does not include the idea of proving to skeptics that witchcraft is real. I have no problem at all with believing both that witchcraft is real, and that no DB test of witchcraft will ever succeed in demonstrating that it is real, simultaneously. Call it the Heisenwitch Factor.

Do I have a problem with Harry Potter?

No, not really, although truth to tell I as a jury am still 'out' on this one since I've never read any of the books or seen the movie(s?) myself. I do have this innordinate craving to ask those who beat the book(film)burning drum about HP what their stand on Tolkien's LotR is, since that was written by a firm Christian with decidedly and deliberate Christian overtones to it, and yet has magic just the same (not to mention all the thousands of pseudo-Tolkien fantasy works that are out there). Does the HP "canon" (and I use that term with all deliberate malice) actually state or show that the magic in it is the work of spiritual beings? Why, then, if it does, that's a real problem and I would say that HP should be listed (on Christian reading lists, anyway) as being dangerous for young and untutored minds -- unless, of course, only the evil magic is so described and any "good" magic comes from other sources. But if HP's magic is just wave-a-wand-sing-a-jingle-and-poof!, then I don't believe that there's any reason for the hubbub. I do not believe that kids who read that, go out in the yard and wave a stick and sing a jingle are going to accidently conjure some demon that's going to devour their soul. Demons can be summoned, but you have to be more serious about it than that.

The (just my tuppence-ha'penny) Curtmudgeon

[guym]

I still find it very interesting that by the Christian definition of withcraft all medical doctors seem to fit quite well.

[James]

11-26-2003 @ 01:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=317394#post317394)
Undomiel:

Since the premise is forces of evil don't reveal their hand if it might prove they exist to someone who doesn't believe they do, your tests will tend to be negative and the results less than satisfactory.

Anything with such a cache-22 should be regarded with extreme skepticism. For instance, I could tell you that my cat is God. Sure, she looks and acts like a normal cat, but she doesn't want to reveal herself yet. You should not believe me unless I can actually make a positive demonstration of my cat's divine nature.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Today @ 09:52 AM James:
Anything with such a cache-22 should be regarded with extreme skepticism. For instance, I could tell you that my cat is God. Sure, she looks and acts like a normal cat, but she doesn't want to reveal herself yet. You should not believe me unless I can actually make a positive demonstration of my cat's divine nature.

Not exactly, James. Witchcraft is an individually-experienced reality. Several things are involved: a willing belief on the part of the practitioner, for one; the willing co-operation of an independent spiritual being for another. Demons may manifest themselves on occasion to halfway-believing persons in order to convince them to take the last step, but in general without belief there is no contact. And the actions that the demon takes are always constrained by how well they fit with the demonic agenda, which also includes who is allowed to witness the activities.

[Please note: I differentiate between 'witchcraft' and 'demon-possession'; some demons can take over a person without invitation or even necessarily co-operation, but never does that result in the person having the seeming control over the demon that a witch demonstrates. In possession, the demon simply uses the person for its own direct purposes, as a puppet. In witchcraft, the person is a patsy but not a puppet.]

Thus, the skeptic by his very nature precludes himself from experiencing the reality of witchcraft. Satan and his demons like skeptics to be skeptical -- the skeptical corps forms Satan's most "useful idiots" to use a political analogy. If skeptics were to be shown the reality of the spiritual world and spiritual warfare, way too many of them would start to accept the truth of other spiritual matters, and that's a place that Satan simply does not want them to go. Better by far to keep them completely opposed to any idea of spiritual realities.

Only where there is already a core of belief in some level of spiritual reality does Satan allow his demons to participate in the activities of witchcraft. These are directed to persons who might, if allowed to proceed on other lines, "fall into" belief in Jesus' miracles and the Holy Spirit and thus be lost to Satan. The witch herself must be spiritually inclined, and any witnesses of the demon activity must as well, or else there simply won't be any activity.

This is why double-blind testing will never work with witchcraft: a DB test assumes that the tester has both control over the test setup and procedure, and that he has a completely willing test subject. With witchcraft, neither of these is true. The DB tester has no control over nor guarantee of the demon's co-operation. And in fact, is almost assuredly guaranteed its non-co-operation.

As a corollary to all this, this is also why witchcraft, or its results, can often be manifested with Christian witnesses even though not with skeptical witnesses. If the Christian is already convinced of the reality of Satan and his interference in the world, then it gains the demon nothing to hide. In fact, if the Christian is still weak in his faith, the demon might hope to so thoroughly cow him as to destroy any living witness he might otherwise have. But a skeptic suits Satan best by remaining a skeptic.

In effect, the skeptic has willfully closed his spiritual eyes, and then complains because he can't see spiritual things.

The (but in all things be careful what you wish for) Curtmudgeon

[bar Jonah]

guym:
I still find it very interesting that by the Christian definition of withcraft all medical doctors seem to fit quite well.
You have some interesting doctors. Me, I've never met a doctor who worships pagan gods and goddesses and Nature it/herself, who hold ceremonies praising the Elemental Forces of the universe, communicating with spirits, forging magic spells with candles and feathers and ribbons magically-endowed jewelry, etc. :huh:

[The Curtmudgeon]

Today @ 08:29 AM guym:

I still find it very interesting that by the Christian definition of withcraft all medical doctors seem to fit quite well.

Guym, it seems to me that you're actually referring to the skeptics' (strawman) definition of witchcraft, rather than a Christian definition. Every Christian source that I know of defines witchcraft in the context of knowingly and willingly dealing with supernatural evil powers (although the witch may not recognise or agree that the powers are evil) to effect "magic". Only a skeptic would equate witchcraft with merely "some effect that I can't explain".

If you have a Christian source for this (i.e., it's no good posting what skeptics claim Christians believe), please document it for us. Thanx.

The (unless, of course, you just mean to be humourous) Curtmudgeon

[bar Jonah]

The Curtmudgeon:
Guym, it seems to me that you're actually referring to the skeptics' (strawman) definition of witchcraft, rather than a Christian definition. Every Christian source that I know of defines witchcraft in the context of knowingly and willingly dealing with supernatural evil powers (although the witch may not recognise or agree that the powers are evil) to effect "magic". Only a skeptic would equate witchcraft with merely "some effect that I can't explain".

If you have a Christian source for this (i.e., it's no good posting what skeptics claim Christians believe), please document it for us. Thanx.

The (unless, of course, you just mean to be humourous) Curtmudgeon
Well, not exactly.

Most neopagans do not knowingly traffic with evil powers.

And a great many neo-pagans (including myself formerly) don't consider witchcraft and magic to be "supernatural" but simply natural.

Christianity's God and His miracles, on the other hand, are inherently supernatural. So are many of the works of Christianity's Satan. But many neo-pagans consider magic to be a natural part of how the universe works.

[guym]

Actually, I was referring to this quote and to my understanding of the history of people who have been prosecuted as witches:

07-27-2003 @ 05:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=160113#post160113)
Thomas2003:


According to Buckland in Ancient and Modern Witchcraft, "Behind the magic of witchcraft is a belief that power comes from the human body."



As I understand history, those people that were prosecuted as witches were healers moreso than people that cursed others, if they had any "witchcraft" knowledge at all. The reason for their persecution being that they were able to heal or affect others without or possibly against what was considered to be God's will. Plagues, disease and such were believed to be manifestations of the wrath of God, and so any attempt to prevent this was heathen and an abomination of the church. This of course was mostly because the healing powers did not originate from the church and thus conflicted with the pulpit. Therefor, anyone that healed sickness, disease or the plague could be conidered a witch if they were not backed by the church. The rituals used by a healer are mostly irrelevant when this is considered unless they were specifically calling on Satan, which is doubtful.

If this is in general terms correct, I would think that since modern day doctors use science and things not accepted by the church, and certainly not accepted at the time of lethal witch prosecution, medical doctors can be viewed as witches if we are still going to hold that witches are any threat to Christianity.

Most of the arguments I've seen here as to why witches should be feared is due to Christians who were formerly witches and some kind of great power and now are covered in the blood of Christ, to quote a disturbing earlier post, and no longer a threat to the Christain populace. There have also been posts about how anyone who is presented with the power of witchcraft need only to show their faith in Christ to ward it off. I would propose that the only people that are affected by "evil" powers of witchcraft are those that have faith in that power, and faith in Christ, God, Allah, yourself or anything for that matter would render it useless. The mind is a powerful thing.

My point in posting here was to discuss this Harry Potter, Snow White and other fictional witch fear. What I'm trying to prove is that there is really no reason to fear made up witches becuase kids might become "real" witches, because you probably want them to become what the church feared as a witch anyway. By ancient church definitions, jdoctors and others that exist in the modern world to make a difference and help others could have been burned as witches. Do you fear yourself?

[The Curtmudgeon]

Today @ 02:08 PM RightIdea:


Well, not exactly.

Most neopagans do not knowingly traffic with evil powers.

But the powers that they knowingly traffic with are evil whether the neopagans understand or admit that or not. That does not imply that all neopagans are doing business with real powers -- some are undoubtedly only fooling themselves, or are deliberately trying to fool others, and that might conceivably be the majority of them (or might not, for that matter). But anyone who can show actual effects from doing witchcraft is doing so with the aid of evil powers -- who for rather obvious reasons are not in the habit of confessing to their patsies that they are evil.

And a great many neo-pagans (including myself formerly) don't consider witchcraft and magic to be "supernatural" but simply natural.

If you're equating witchcraft with herbal medicines, or even eye-of-newt-toe-of-frog games, then I can agree with you. But if the magic involves calling upon powers (i.e., beings, whether personified or not by the witch) to perform the actions, then you're dealing with demons even if the witch believes (s)he is calling on "natural spirits" or the like (assuming, as before, that something is really happening at all).

Christianity's God and His miracles, on the other hand, are inherently supernatural. So are many of the works of Christianity's Satan. But many neo-pagans consider magic to be a natural part of how the universe works.

My point is that it isn't really up to them to decide how the universe might work; the Creator of the Universe has told us how it works, and how The Enemy works in it. And that Enemy is the Father of Lies.

The ("and he was a murderer from the beginning") Curtmudgeon

[bar Jonah]

Curt, I'm not defending them. I'm just explaining them, as I used to be one of them. :lol: Yes, a large percentage believe what we would call "supernatural" magic is entirely natural, not supernatural. Including spirits, etc.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Today @ 02:43 PM guym:

Actually, I was referring to this quote and to my understanding of the history of people who have been prosecuted as witches:

According to Buckland in Ancient and Modern Witchcraft, "Behind the magic of witchcraft is a belief that power comes from the human body."

I hate having to manually add in quotes-within-quotes. :argh: Anyway:

As I understand history, those people that were prosecuted as witches were healers moreso than people that cursed others, if they had any "witchcraft" knowledge at all. The reason for their persecution being that they were able to heal or affect others without or possibly against what was considered to be God's will.

This is, unfortunately all too common, reading back modern ideas into what was actually happening. Actual investigations of the witchcraft trials in various countries and times has quite thoroughly disproved the "poor little old woman just trying to help her neighbors" strawman (as well as the vastly inflated numbers of people burned for witchcraft which are often cited in modern works -- a strawman so notoriously false that even The Wiccan/Pagan Times website carries an article disproving it).

Plagues, disease and such were believed to be manifestations of the wrath of God, and so any attempt to prevent this was heathen and an abomination of the church. This of course was mostly because the healing powers did not originate from the church and thus conflicted with the pulpit. Therefor, anyone that healed sickness, disease or the plague could be conidered a witch if they were not backed by the church. The rituals used by a healer are mostly irrelevant when this is considered unless they were specifically calling on Satan, which is doubtful.

Unfortunately, this all falls into the "what skeptics say Christians believe(d)" bracket which I disallowed to start with. The "it's all God's will so you can't fight it" idea is an Islamic concept which was foreign to the medieval Church nearly as much as it is foreign to the modern Church. Granted, it often seems otherwise to casual modern "scholars" simply because the medieval Church did hold to a "God's will cannot be fought" position in certain other areas, notably social order (serfs are meant to be serfs and so rebellion is rebellion against God's order).

The Church did often teach that plagues (diseases, conquering armies of barbarians, whatever) were sent by God as a punishment, but there was certainly no concept of "you have to stand there and let the plague/Mongol/whatever kill you" -- if you could find a way to survive it, then that was also God's will for you. If the plague was sent by God specifically to kill you, it wasn't a matter of you weren't allowed to fight it but rather that you wouldn't succeed in fighting it no matter what you did; contrariwise, if you did fight it somehow and won, then obviously God didn't intend for it to kill you in the first place.

If this is in general terms correct, I would think that since modern day doctors use science and things not accepted by the church,

Whatever makes you think that the church does not accept science??????? Especially medical science. Do you even have a concept of how many hospitals in America and around the world are built, staffed and funded by churches and other Christian organisations? :whack: Probably the largest number of evangelical missionaries sent out into the world, after preachers, are medical missionaries. :noid:

and certainly not accepted at the time of lethal witch prosecution,

Sigh. See parenthetical statement above.

medical doctors can be viewed as witches if we are still going to hold that witches are any threat to Christianity.

Most of the arguments I've seen here as to why witches should be feared is due to Christians who were formerly witches and some kind of great power and now are covered in the blood of Christ, to quote a disturbing earlier post, and no longer a threat to the Christain populace. There have also been posts about how anyone who is presented with the power of witchcraft need only to show their faith in Christ to ward it off.

Anyone who claimed that certainly hasn't come to grips with what Jesus said about demons. I would say that as a general rule it's correct, but first you had better be sure that your faith is strong, and even so there will be exceptions. Demons are called powers in the Bible for a very good (and rather obvious) reason: they're powerful.

I would propose that the only people that are affected by "evil" powers of witchcraft are those that have faith in that power, and faith in Christ, God, Allah, yourself or anything for that matter would render it useless. The mind is a powerful thing.

Not when it comes to dealing with spiritual powers, it isn't. The mind is most powerful when it comes to fooling itself.

My point in posting here was to discuss this Harry Potter, Snow White and other fictional witch fear. What I'm trying to prove is that there is really no reason to fear made up witches becuase kids might become "real" witches, because you probably want them to become what the church feared as a witch anyway. By ancient church definitions, jdoctors and others that exist in the modern world to make a difference and help others could have been burned as witches. Do you fear yourself?

As I said in my first post in this thread, I basically agree with you on the topic of fictional witches. But I do so only because I believe that very few, if any, writers of such fiction are accurately portraying real witchcraft and the power behind it.

The ( :flaming: <-- strawman argument getting what it deserves) Curtmudgeon

[The Curtmudgeon]

Today @ 11:17 PM RightIdea:

Curt, I'm not defending them. I'm just explaining them, as I used to be one of them. :lol:

My fault, I fear. I actually wrote that entire response without realising that it was from you, so I misinterpretted where the poster was coming from.

The ( me --> :rock: <-- also me) Curtmudgeon

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Yesterday @ 12:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=362020#post362020)
RightIdea:


You have some interesting doctors. Me, I've never met a doctor who worships pagan gods and goddesses and Nature it/herself, who hold ceremonies praising the Elemental Forces of the universe, communicating with spirits, forging magic spells with candles and feathers and ribbons magically-endowed jewelry, etc. :huh:
I've also met a number of Wiccans and witches who do none of the above. If you had gotten very far in your Wiccan studies, you would have realized there is no doctrinal requirement to worship pagan god/desses, but only to recognize and revere the existence of the divine; and while there are some who "worship" Nature, many simply revere and respect Nature, but worship the Creator; and a considerable number have no involvement at all with communing with spirits or the practice of magick. NONE of the above are required to be a witch or a Wiccan.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Yesterday @ 01:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=362073#post362073)
The Curtmudgeon:



Guym, it seems to me that you're actually referring to the skeptics' (strawman) definition of witchcraft, rather than a Christian definition. Every Christian source that I know of defines witchcraft in the context of knowingly and willingly dealing with supernatural evil powers (although the witch may not recognise or agree that the powers are evil) to effect &quot;magic&quot;. Only a skeptic would equate witchcraft with merely &quot;some effect that I can't explain&quot;.

Simply put, the Christian definition is incorrect. There's no simpler way of putting it.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Yesterday @ 10:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=362600#post362600)
The Curtmudgeon:

But the powers that they knowingly traffic with are evil whether the neopagans understand or admit that or not.
This is what you believe, but if I were to ask you to prove it, you would fall short.

That does not imply that all neopagans are doing business with real powers -- some are undoubtedly only fooling themselves, or are deliberately trying to fool others, and that might conceivably be the majority of them (or might not, for that matter).
You seem to be buying into the majority misconception that paganism is either synonymous with or requires involvement with magickal practices. It isn't, and it doesn't. There are many witches and Wiccans both who have no involvement at all with magick or "powers," as you say. They don't traffic with new age mysticism, and they don't portray themselves as psychics or soothsayers. They are simply people who intermingle their spirituality with the natural world. Unlike Right Idea, who was a former dabbler in Wicca and paganism, I am an active participant in paganism, and have been for the better part of three decades. I don't practice magick, I don't commune with spirits, I don't read tarot cards (I can, but I don't), I'm not a psychic, I have no paranormal abilities, nor do I seek to gain any such abilities. And I know quite a few others who are just like me. And they're all witches and pagans. Simply put, the working definition you're relying on for defining a witch or pagan is an incorrect definition. Yes, there are many who do practice magick and engage in such things, but they aren't required (despite the pop witchcraft books you'll find in many bookstores).

But anyone who can show actual effects from doing witchcraft is doing so with the aid of evil powers -- who for rather obvious reasons are not in the habit of confessing to their patsies that they are evil.
Again, do you have one shred of proof that they are dealing with evil powers, other than the fact that your mythology book says so?

If you're equating witchcraft with herbal medicines, or even eye-of-newt-toe-of-frog games, then I can agree with you. But if the magic involves calling upon powers (i.e., beings, whether personified or not by the witch) to perform the actions, then you're dealing with demons even if the witch believes (s)he is calling on &quot;natural spirits&quot; or the like (assuming, as before, that something is really happening at all).
Most witches I've known over the considerable number of years I've been involved with it call upon God (they may personify God differently than you do, but they're calling upon the Creator of the universe, the highest of all powers) to perform their requested actions, whether it be for healing, protection, or simply praise. If you believe calling upon God is calling demons, might I suggest you be extremely careful next time you pray?

My point is that it isn't really up to them to decide how the universe might work; the Creator of the Universe has told us how it works, and how The Enemy works in it. And that Enemy is the Father of Lies.
Can you prove the Creator of the Universe has told you any such thing? As far as I know, only a few dead Hebrews told us these things.

[James]

Yesterday @ 12:18 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=361975#post361975)
The Curtmudgeon:

Not exactly, James. Witchcraft is an individually-experienced reality. Several things are involved: a willing belief on the part of the practitioner, for one; the willing co-operation of an independent spiritual being for another. Demons may manifest themselves on occasion to halfway-believing persons in order to convince them to take the last step, but in general without belief there is no contact. And the actions that the demon takes are always constrained by how well they fit with the demonic agenda, which also includes who is allowed to witness the activities.

Alright, now explain to me how this is any different than my cat not wanting to demonstrate that she is, in fact, the Creator of the Universe in her physical manifestation. Why should you believe in demons if you don't believe in my cat?


The witch herself must be spiritually inclined, and any witnesses of the demon activity must as well, or else there simply won't be any activity.

...or no one will be suckered into thinking that there was any demon activiy.

As a corollary to all this, this is also why witchcraft, or its results, can often be manifested with Christian witnesses even though not with skeptical witnesses. If the Christian is already convinced of the reality of Satan and his interference in the world, then it gains the demon nothing to hide.

Let's examine the different explanations:

Skeptic's explanation: A Christian believes in demonic activity because he believes that demons exist and has a psychological bias for confirming that belief.

Your explanation: Demons don't have anything to hide, even though by showing themselves to a Christian they strengthen the Christian's faith and need for Jesus-belief. Why don't the demons stop showing themselves to the Christians in order to convince the Christians that they don't exist and create doubt?

In fact, if the Christian is still weak in his faith, the demon might hope to so thoroughly cow him as to destroy any living witness he might otherwise have.

I don't know what type of people you've been associating with, but a fear of hell strengthens the belief of everyone I've met

[Ben Franklin]

If modern Christians didn't believe in witch-craft, I would think there'd be less vehemence against Harry Potter...

[emulator]

i dont want to encourage any one to do it but since i have done LSD several times...i will forever disdain both witchcraft and sorcery...they are definitely real if not readily tangible to all peeps...i have had two very close encounters with Satan (or his effective progeny) the first was while in an LSD induced coma ...the other was more an answer to prayer, (i asked God to show me the difference between Him and Satan so he let me see Satan in a very scary and real way)...Satan wants you dead and he doesn't care how long it takes...he doesn't like you and we all need Jesus.
even the darkest lies shed light on the truth...

[AndyN]

I don't want to sound cynical, but doesn't the whole 'LSD induced coma ' thing suggest you may have been hallucinating? :huh:

For what it's worth (answering the original post), I think you can't just abandon parts of the bible that sound silly. Either there are supernatural and spiritual powers, demons, powers and principalities, or there aren't. And if the latter is true, then Jesus defiantely wasn't God and didn't rise from the dead, and his teachings are fallible.
:hrm:

[The Curtmudgeon]

Yesterday @ 04:16 PM James:
Alright, now explain to me how this is any different than my cat not wanting to demonstrate that she is, in fact, the Creator of the Universe in her physical manifestation. Why should you believe in demons if you don't believe in my cat?

You obviously fail to understand why there is an authoritarial difference between Jesus Christ as a witness and you as a witness. I can't help you with that problem.

Your explanation: Demons don't have anything to hide, even though by showing themselves to a Christian they strengthen the Christian's faith and need for Jesus-belief.

No, my explanation is that demons don't have anything to hide because the Christian, if he's been studying the Word as we are commanded, already knows about demons. The Christian faith is neither based on nor strengthened by demons; it is based on Christ, and the fact that that includes believing His witness on demons is rather a minor point (minor in the sense that our faith concerns much more important things, but this minor point is true just as the major points are).

If you'll read my original post again, I even said nothing about demons weakening a Christian's faith, either. I said a Christian whose faith was already weak might be intimidated by demonic activity and thereby not live out his Christian witness to others.

Why don't the demons stop showing themselves to the Christians in order to convince the Christians that they don't exist and create doubt?

Because the Christians have a more excellent witness than even the demons themselves, and do not need personal experience or witness of demonic activity to believe in them. If no demon ever uses its powers in my presence, yet I still believe in the existence of demons and their power simply because God through His Word witnesses to their existence and power.

And in fact, the answer to your "Why don't they?" is that indeed they do hide from many Christians, for that very reason. Some Christians even doubt or disbelieve in the existence of, or at least manifestations by, demons today (foolishly, since Christ has witnessed to the veracity of both their existence and their involvement in the world; but Christians, alas, are not always completely free from foolishness). What I said originally was that demons might choose to manifest their powers even though a Christian is present, not that they make a habit of manifesting to Christians (okay, looking back at it I did say "often" and I probably should not have). They generally don't, as the Christian might indeed be strong enough in his faith to call upon Jesus to remove the demon by His power. But on occasion a demon might choose to "show off" if it believes that it could do so safely for some effect.

I don't know what type of people you've been associating with, but a fear of hell strengthens the belief of everyone I've met

(Aside before I answer: We've actually been discussing witchcraft and its basis in demon activity in the world, which is totally separate from, and not dependant upon, the belief in hell.)

In the wider Christian experience, it actually doesn't. The question(s) of hell is a very un-simple area of theology (there's even a good book out called Four Views on Hell, all of which are from relatively mainline Christian perspectives and yet are worlds apart philosophically), but as a general rule about the most a belief in hell does is kick-start a person into examining both himself and Christ, with the help of the Holy Spirit. It is what he learns in that examination that provides or strengthens his faith, not the fear of hell itself.

Jesus Himself reserved His own "you're in danger of hellfire" messages for false religious leaders who were leading others away from the true worship of God. Never did He use it as a way of reaching other individuals or of teaching those who were already His followers.

The (the message of Christianity is positive, not negative) Curtmudgeon

[James]

Curt, perhaps the question you should be asking yourself is, "Why did God create demons?" What possible benefit could demons have added to God's creation? If demons draw people away from God, which He supposedly doesn't want (or does He?), why create them in the first place?

[bar Jonah]

James:
Curt, perhaps the question you should be asking yourself is, "Why did God create demons?" What possible benefit could demons have added to God's creation? If demons draw people away from God, which He supposedly doesn't want (or does He?), why create them in the first place?
God didn't create demons. Where do you get the idea that he did? :ahem:

[James]

Today @ 01:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=365349#post365349)
RightIdea:


God didn't create demons. Where do you get the idea that he did? :ahem:

If God didn't create demons, did they create themselves? Is there another deity doing the creating?

[bar Jonah]

James:
If God didn't create demons, did they create themselves? Is there another deity doing the creating?
James, don't play ignorant. This is hardly a secret teaching in Christianity.

Did God create child rapists? Certainly not.

As I explained in the Rando's "I Don't Fit" thread, sin is not created. It is a twisting or perversion of something good.

Angels were created good. A third of them, led by the highest angel Lucifer, chose to sin, chose to fall into evil. These fallen angels are "demons."

Just as God created Man without sin, so He created angels without sin. And just as Man chose sin against God's will.... so those angels chose sin against God's will.

[James]

Today @ 01:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=365398#post365398)
RightIdea:

Angels were created good. A third of them, led by the highest angel Lucifer, chose to sin, chose to fall into evil. These fallen angels are &quot;demons.&quot;

So, in other words, God created angels who would choose to become demons, so therefore God created those things we call "demons," as I said above.

Just as God created Man without sin, so He created angels without sin. And just as Man chose sin against God's will.... so those angels chose sin against God's will.

Why is it that God cannot create creatures who would not choose to sin if He supposedly abhors sin? That's the real question.

[bar Jonah]

James:
So, in other words, God created angels who would choose to become demons, so therefore God created those things we call "demons," as I said above.
Uhm, no. God did not desire for them to sin, but they had free will, just like we do. It was not God's plan for them to commit evil. See, now you're going so far off topic in this thread that you're designing anti-theist arguments. :ahem:

Why is it that God cannot create creatures who would not choose to sin if He supposedly abhors sin? That's the real question.
Without a free will choice, a reciprocal relationship with His creations would be meaningless. God had no wish for anyone to sin. We did, so God responded with a plan to rescue us from that sin.

But because the angels were FAR more without any excuse -- they knew firsthand, in person, with their own "eyes" that God is real and who and what he really is -- that they were too accountable to forgive. We have enough information. But they had all information and knew without any doubt whatsoever, yet rebelled against Him anyway. Which is why God does not extend the possibility of forgiveness to them, which is why they cannot repent.

Now that we've argued about whether there is a God based on the problem of evil, may we return to the thread topic? :noid:

[James]

Today @ 02:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=365555#post365555)
RightIdea:

Now that we've argued about whether there is a God based on the problem of evil, may we return to the thread topic? :noid:

That wasn't the "problem of evil," that was the "logical contradiction in holding a creation responsible for the actions of its supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing creator-deity," but OK.

Here's my position on the issue: it makes me cry to see people believing that wiccans or pagans are actually "communicating with demons," or what have you. This makes me doubt that these believers have learned any lessons from Witch Trials and all other such events. The real tragedy of these events is that every accused person was innocent because witchcraft is merely a fancy of the mind rather than a practice with physical consequence. Thinking that witchcraft actually has possible effects is what lead to such tragedies, and that is what I would like people to critically address.

I would like to continue to point out that demons have the exact same characteristics as things that don't exist: they don't show up in tests or studies, and there is no way to detect them. Thus, saying that demons exist under such conditions is propositionally equivalent to saying that all of humanity lives in the Matrix or that we were all created last week with our memories intact. These are internally consistent positions only because they are tautologies: they make themselves true only because they define all ways to falsify them out of existence.

If you believe that such tautologies can exist, then there is no real way to determine which tautologies are true and which are false. For example, you can say that you derive demon-belief from the claims of the Bible, but the claim that demons pretend they don't exist in order to trick humanity is no different than saying that Yahweh is actually an evil deity and that the serpent trying to free Adam and Eve from Yahweh's clutches is the real savior. I could claim that the entire Bible scenario is a ploy by an evil Yahweh to get humans to worship him and blind themselves to the real truth that the serpent was offering. After all, this is perfectly consistent with the problem of evil in the world.

Like I said above, I could also claim that my cat created the world last week with all our memories intact. How is this any different than saying that demons exist but can't be detected by anyone who wishes to determine their existence? Can you possibly discount my other tautologies without equally discounting yours?