Why

[Durthorin]

Why as a Pagan am I here on Tweb? To promote understanding? To engage in a dialogue that seeks to at least gain a level of mutual respect? Why? At one point I posted on a regular basis, debated, argued and tried to maintain my center while doing it. I then fell to lurking because I was tired of the same argument/debate over and over.. So why am I here?

[mossrose]

Cuz despite yourself, you like us?

:smile:

[Meh_Gerbil]

Why as a Pagan am I here on Tweb? To promote understanding? To engage in a dialogue that seeks to at least gain a level of mutual respect? Why? At one point I posted on a regular basis, debated, argued and tried to maintain my center while doing it. I then fell to lurking because I was tired of the same argument/debate over and over.. So why am I here?

Because Jesus is calling you?
:sigh:

[Durthorin]

Cuz despite yourself, you like us?

:smile:

Some of you. Some I'm afraid actually horrify me.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[dizzle]

'Cause we need a nice nonarrogant nonpontificating pagan??

Sounds like a good reason to me.

I dig you.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Some of you. Some I'm afraid actually horrify me.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Oh oh...I think I'm in the horrify catagory.

*sigh*

[mossrose]

Some of you. Some I'm afraid actually horrify me.

Brighid Bless, Dur
I hope I am in the former category.......

:hug:

[Durthorin]

Because Jesus is calling you?
:sigh:

No. I was a Christian MG.. when I left I went thru the "angry" pagan phase of hating Christianity.. I got over it as I studied and embraced my faith. At a certain point when I came to internet boards my goal in all honesty was battle. Understanding came later as I started to walk this walk.. I still go to church with my wife and I'm comfortable as a Pagan/Wiccan.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Meh_Gerbil]

No. I was a Christian MG.. when I left I went thru the "angry" pagan phase of hating Christianity.. I got over it as I studied and embraced my faith. At a certain point when I came to internet boards my goal in all honesty was battle. Understanding came later as I started to walk this walk.. I still go to church with my wife and I'm comfortable as a Pagan/Wiccan.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Well in any case you are welcome here.
I've not had many questions about Paganism but when I get them you're one of the first people I ask.

[Durthorin]

'Cause we need a nice nonarrogant nonpontificating pagan??

Sounds like a good reason to me.

I dig you.

Thank you Milady, you have my respect as well. But I'm studing to become a priest and I was discussing recently "how and where" I spent time with my Priestess.


All Pagan I know go thru a phase where they are angry with Christianity( if they arn't cradle Pagan's) .. some get over and move past it.. others find something that corrects that original reason for leaving and go back..

Be well. Brighid Bless, Dur

[Durthorin]

Oh oh...I think I'm in the horrify catagory.

*sigh*

No ... I think your mildly disturbing.. ;)

[Durthorin]

I hope I am in the former category.......

:hug:

Very non-horifying

[Durthorin]

Well in any case you are welcome here.
I've not had many questions about Paganism but when I get them you're one of the first people I ask.

I guess part of this is a question if I'm contributing to "my" faith with the time I spend here.. Perhaps the best answer I have is yours and Dee's.

[Darth Executor]

I hope you have trouble sleeping at night because of me. :smile:

[mossrose]

Very non-horifying
Wait! Have you seen my smiley?

:mossrose:

Scary, huh?

[Aletheia]

Wait! Have you seen my smiley?

:mossrose:

Scary, huh?


Aaaaaaah! :egad:

[Durthorin]

I hope you have trouble sleeping at night because of me. :smile:

No.. I sleep well.. But having seen the kittten in the space melon.. I did find that .. sort of unsettling.. or I could just be thirsty. Does that count?

[Aletheia]

Durthorin, are you still here or have you wandered off? :teeth: If so, where did ya go?

[Durthorin]

Durthorin, are you still here or have you wandered off? :teeth: If so, where did ya go?

Still here. Just been busy in the RW

[Aletheia]

Still here. Just been busy in the RW

Yeah me too. Yardwork. :teeth: Just wanted to say :hi:.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Well, I get somewhat angry about Paganism, especially the neo-paganism that I see becoming stronger in Europe and parts of the US. There's a movie called, "Songs from the Second Floor" that was made not long ago in Sweden that lampoons the return to paganism there but cannot return to Xty.

I think that there's little historical continuity between neo-paganism and past paganism. I don't like the elitism in paganism, with the veneration of man-gods like pythagoras as with Iamblichus, or some traditional european forms of Xty. I hear Nietsczhe was a pagan. I read "The Pagan Temptation by Thomas Molnar and it helped me to understand better how Xty differed from the alternatives of its time.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=DELA,DELA:2006-02,DELA:en&q=%22The+Pagan+Temptation%22+Molnar
I also think Colossians contains the special language it has because it was written as a polemic to the paganism of that area.

It's not personal, it's just my religion.

dlw

[Durthorin]

Well, I get somewhat angry about Paganism, especially the neo-paganism that I see becoming stronger in Europe and parts of the US. There's a movie called, "Songs from the Second Floor" that was made not long ago in Sweden that lampoons the return to paganism there but cannot return to Xty.

I think that there's little historical continuity between neo-paganism and past paganism. I don't like the elitism in paganism, with the veneration of man-gods like pythagoras as with Iamblichus, or some traditional european forms of Xty. I hear Nietsczhe was a pagan. I read "The Pagan Temptation by Thomas Molnar and it helped me to understand better how Xty differed from the alternatives of its time.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=DELA,DELA:2006-02,DELA:en&q=%22The+Pagan+Temptation%22+Molnar
I also think Colossians contains the special language it has because it was written as a polemic to the paganism of that area.

It's not personal, it's just my religion.

dlw

Saying Paganism or Neo-paganism is like saying Christianity. In both cases a wide variety of denominations/traditions exist under each umbrella. Looking at Molnar's work he seems to be speaking primarily about Helennic and Roman paganism and its beliefs which one finds doesn't really apply to for example Celtic or Norse based Pagan faiths. As for historical continuity, that to varies with the tradition.. First Nations faiths are fairly unbroken lines. The Celtic and Norse reconstructionists have gone to great effort and in the case of the Astura do have documentation of belief and practices. At the other end you have Reclaiming Witchcraft that makes no bones that they pretty much make it up as they go with only a bare structure based on very general Pagan beliefs.

As for elitism, been a Pagan for over 20 years now and I have not seen any more elitism than I've seen in any human orginization including the Baptist Church. :sigh:

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Saying Paganism or Neo-paganism is like saying Christianity.

We have slightly more agreement on what the central teachings and concepts are supposed to be.

In both cases a wide variety of denominations/traditions exist under each umbrella. Looking at Molnar's work he seems to be speaking primarily about Helennic and Roman paganism and its beliefs which one finds doesn't really apply to for example Celtic or Norse based Pagan faiths.

So what does Paganism have in common? I'm told it at the popular level has a strong thaumaturgical focus. Ie. something bad happens and so by going through the proper ritual we appease the right god/spirit and don't need to worry about it happening again soon.

At the more elite level, it seems to elevate some people as more like gods, perhaps not unlike charismatic/pentecostals who think they've reached a higher level of spirituality...

As for historical continuity, that to varies with the tradition.. First Nations faiths are fairly unbroken lines. The Celtic and Norse reconstructionists have gone to great effort and in the case of the Astura do have documentation of belief and practices. At the other end you have Reclaiming Witchcraft that makes no bones that they pretty much make it up as they go with only a bare structure based on very general Pagan beliefs.

What is First Nations faiths? Does that involve native Americans?

As for elitism, been a Pagan for over 20 years now and I have not seen any more elitism than I've seen in any human orginization including the Baptist Church. :sigh:

Brighid Bless, Dur

Well it certainly tends to sneak in the back door.

thanks for the irenic response.

dlw

[Durthorin]

We have slightly more agreement on what the central teachings and concepts are supposed to be.


True. Asking Five pagans for an opinion will get you six answers.



So what does Paganism have in common? I'm told it at the popular level has a strong thaumaturgical focus. Ie. something bad happens and so by going through the proper ritual we appease the right god/spirit and don't need to worry about it happening again soon.

At the more elite level, it seems to elevate some people as more like gods, perhaps not unlike charismatic/pentecostals who think they've reached a higher level of spirituality...


The LCD of all Pagans I have met personally is a belief that we are a part of the world, neither above it or seperate from it. It is a belief that the Divine is part of everything including us. Some people ususally the young in faith tend to lock onto "I can do magik to get my way." not noting that the Gods tend to answer spells like that by giving you an oppotunity to "Chop wood and carry water." One thing as well is that most pagans seek a personal interaction with Diety. Ritual becomes a tool for that interaction.


What is First Nations faiths? Does that involve native Americans?


Yes, its another names for Native american faiths.


Well it certainly tends to sneak in the back door.


It does with all faiths. Immunity to human nature hasn't been issued to any of us. :)


thanks for the irenic response.


Answering peacefully is something I try to always do.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

True. Asking Five pagans for an opinion will get you six answers.

There must be a lot of pagan economists...

The LCD of all Pagans I have met personally is a belief that we are a part of the world, neither above it or seperate from it. It is a belief that the Divine is part of everything including us. Some people ususally the young in faith tend to lock onto "I can do magik to get my way." not noting that the Gods tend to answer spells like that by giving you an oppotunity to "Chop wood and carry water." One thing as well is that most pagans seek a personal interaction with Diety. Ritual becomes a tool for that interaction.

So what is your belief re: the emergence of humanity and our development of consciousness and better understandings of our world and how we may alter it?

It does with all faiths. Immunity to human nature hasn't been issued to any of us. :)

Some faiths build elitism in, I've come to believe that true Christianity tends to promote greater decentralization in decision-making, first in the faith-community and then elsewhere, unfortunately this has been subverted historically....

Answering peacefully is something I try to always do.

It's an honorable virtue.

dlw

[Durthorin]

There must be a lot of pagan economists...


An lawyers.. <chuckle> But strangly enough, I've seen a very high degree of computer professionals in Paganism..


So what is your belief re: the emergence of humanity and our development of consciousness and better understandings of our world and how we may alter it?


We are reflections of the Divine and our purpose is not to alter our world so much as to learn how to live in harmony with it. In all things, balance.


Some faiths build elitism in, I've come to believe that true Christianity tends to promote greater decentralization in decision-making, first in the faith-community and then elsewhere, unfortunately this has been subverted historically....


One of the things I have always liked about Paganism is that decentralization is built into its structure. The Covens & Circles that are more authoritarian seem to self destruct quickly. Ifd Pagans shar one trait accross a great many traditions I'd have to say it was a belief in personal authority with Diety.


It's an honorable virtue.
dlw

Thank you..

[s1mpleton]

No. I was a Christian MG.. when I left I went thru the "angry" pagan phase of hating Christianity.. I got over it as I studied and embraced my faith. At a certain point when I came to internet boards my goal in all honesty was battle. Understanding came later as I started to walk this walk.. I still go to church with my wife and I'm comfortable as a Pagan/Wiccan.

Brighid Bless, Dur
What sort of church do you attend with your wife? What sort of contradictions or issues come of it?

[Malista_Dove]

I often wonder this myself because I thought that Theology was the study of all religions. I have found that Christianity is the base of this site...

[Durthorin]

What sort of church do you attend with your wife? What sort of contradictions or issues come of it?

Southern Baptist.. tho she has started looking into a church of late that is more contemporary and not affiliated with the SBC.. I think some of the things said made her more uncomfortable than me. Condratictions/Issues. Lets see the Halloween sermon...

Brighid Bless, Dur

[s1mpleton]

Southern Baptist.. tho she has started looking into a church of late that is more contemporary and not affiliated with the SBC.. I think some of the things said made her more uncomfortable than me. Condratictions/Issues. Lets see the Halloween sermon...
I am curious to know then, if ever the topic of witchcraft was broached by either a pastor of her church or a lay member, what was your response and/or hers? Or, does anyone there know of your claims for that matter?

I ask this because of the command by God that witchcraft not be practiced?

[Durthorin]

I am curious to know then, if ever the topic of witchcraft was broached by either a pastor of her church or a lay member, what was your response and/or hers? Or, does anyone there know of your claims for that matter?

I ask this because of the command by God that witchcraft not be practiced?

I have corrected impressions and views concerning Pagan faiths in the past in what I consider a non-confrontational or opposing manner. I'm in the broom closet as my wife is a teacher in a rather conservative town near Atlanta. There are still social reprecussions to being a public Pagan and while I'd accept them on my own I'm not going to subject her or my children to them.

My wife tends to not discuss the subject or avoid it on the rare occasions it comes up in conversation. I think there is a mental disconnect when it comes to her love for me, the fact I am Pagan and have been a good husband and father for 25 years. I'm aware she would much rather see me as a Christian, but she accepts I have found a path that I'm on which has served me well for 20 some odd years.


For myselfI while politly decline to support the Church's spirtual mission, I also have felt no problem in helping out withmundane tasks when time permits like cleaning up, mowing the lawn.. etc. As I told her once, my faith is more flexiable than her's so since someone needs to bend.. its me.

[James Peter]

I miss the time when the Wicca section was actually pretty active and we could actually discuss theological/metaphysical issues quite seriously with people come from a lot of different angles. We should try and revive that somehow, especially as I'm feeling myself drawn further and further from orthodox Christianity I need somewhere else to waste my time...

[Durthorin]

Well, guess thats up to us.. to make it active by actually carrying on conversations there. :)

[James Peter]

I guess so, I just can't think of anything interesting to ask. I miss talking about varieties of Satanism though... Thats not really your field though...

Do you have any suggestions?

[Leroy]

What better company to keep then those on tweb.

this may be held against us at a later date.

[s1mpleton]

...my faith is more flexiable than her's so since someone needs to bend.. its me.

Your calm and often positive responses to people's inquiries concerning your beliefs are very welcome. I too, choose to respond in such a way whenever possible. This is because I strive everyday to live the life taught by Jesus Christ of Nazareth, concerning God's law and love.

It is this flexibility itself that will concern many Christians. I do not know to what level your wife has involved herself within the Christian faith, and I make no judgements. I do have beliefs, however; so please take no offense against the following:

It is indeed true that Biblical Christianity is an exclusive faith. Meaning, as much as my beliefs may seem similar to other religions, even those appearing before the start of the Judeo-Christian era, the basis of it all is like no other. Christianity claims exclusivity of God, of redemption and of love.

While your practice of paganism is believed by me to be false and ultimately not derived from God, that very same God through his son Jesus commands me to love you anyway. That love is highly misunderstood even by many modern Christians and was most definitely misunderstood in the past (i.e. Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc. True, God deals wrath to the wicked; but on His terms, not ours. He very clearly states that vengeance is His.)

All this to say, you are God's creation and I love you as such as I am commanded. However, correction is also a part of love. I believe this is what you feel sometimes, Christians believing they are correcting you. Unfortunately, modern-day Christains have become very placid and entirely too flexible. This makes the courageous, steadfast followers of Christ stand out from the rest (not fundamentalist zealots, mind you; but God-fearing, Christ-following people) when they speak up for their Savour and His Father's command not to practice witchcraft.

I would be so bold as to say the flexibility you feel you are lending to the situation only procrastinates that moment when one day, either you or your wife might realize just how incompatible Christianity is with paganism. Not because of hypocrisy, readily evident in any given human, but for the uncompromising love Jesus lived and taught.

[Durthorin]

....

I would be so bold as to say the flexibility you feel you are lending to the situation only procrastinates that moment when one day, either you or your wife might realize just how incompatible Christianity is with paganism. Not because of hypocrisy, readily evident in any given human, but for the uncompromising love Jesus lived and taught.

Personally, I think my wife believes that thru her example I will be led back to Christ, after 20 some odd years i do not know how much hope she still holds out for that. I do know from her words to me that she feels herself blessed by me as a husband and father. Yet, I am well aware that your faith leaves no room for compromise with mine. An I do not attempt to change the minds of Christians concerning that, I merely point out what I perceive as factual errors in what they beleive about non-Christians. Ie that they worship Satan, sacrefice babies still.. etc.. The things you would tend to correct yourself with your level of knowledge.

Personally, my moment of that crisis is somewhat upon me. One I have been wrestling with for the last two months. I feel and have felt a calling to the Priesthood of my faith and as such the stance I have taken of not troubling my wife with my faith has become and issue in my walk. An issue I am still pondering. As I described it to my teacher, three dogs chasing each others tails.. They pause to pant and rest and start it all again.

Blessed Be, Dur

[s1mpleton]

Personally, I think my wife believes that thru her example I will be led back to Christ, after 20 some odd years i do not know how much hope she still holds out for that. I do know from her words to me that she feels herself blessed by me as a husband and father.

Yet, I am well aware that your faith leaves no room for compromise with mine. An I do not attempt to change the minds of Christians concerning that, I merely point out what I perceive as factual errors in what they beleive about non-Christians. Ie that they worship Satan, sacrefice babies still.. etc.. The things you would tend to correct yourself with your level of knowledge.

Personally, my moment of that crisis is somewhat upon me. One I have been wrestling with for the last two months. I feel and have felt a calling to the Priesthood of my faith and as such the stance I have taken of not troubling my wife with my faith has become and issue in my walk. An issue I am still pondering. As I described it to my teacher, three dogs chasing each others tails.. They pause to pant and rest and start it all again.
Your wife's steadfast hope is amazing. She is a model of Christ's love.

Ironically, it is your very perception of how self-righteous Christians can hinder their own witness that would be invaluable in Christ's kingdom. Please consider to which 'priesthood' you are called. Being a protestant myself, I don't necessarily mean you need to acquire a catholic priesthood; but I would insist that you gain as best an understanding as you can about where and how your work on earth is to be done. We humans, left to ourselves, are simply a race of hypocrisy and inconsistency. What might be some of the inconsistencies found in your paganism? What foundation has built your beliefs?

If you choose to continue in your current practices, there is nothing that neither myself or your wife can ultimately say or do about that. But even still, as I already noted, your wife's steadfast spirit, with God's help, can see through even this situation should you choose such.

Put on your helmet for the next few words...:uneasy:
Those dogs are not obeying their master. Having been left to their own devices, they circle and circle and circle and will continue to do so until the end, when there is nothing left but to be accepted as faithful or cast out as forgotten. Fortunately, being created in God's image, we are more than dogs.

[Durthorin]

Your wife's steadfast hope is amazing. She is a model of Christ's love.

Ironically, it is your very perception of how self-righteous Christians can hinder their own witness that would be invaluable in Christ's kingdom. Please consider to which 'priesthood' you are called. Being a protestant myself, I don't necessarily mean you need to acquire a catholic priesthood; but I would insist that you gain as best an understanding as you can about where and how your work on earth is to be done. We humans, left to ourselves, are simply a race of hypocrisy and inconsistency. What might be some of the inconsistencies found in your paganism? What foundation has built your beliefs?


I have already sent back those of your faith walking to mine, when they come for the wrong reasons. I spent many years teaching the Bible and witnessing for Christ before I came to this path.. 8 in that Christain walk.. 20+ now as a Pagan. My Gods and Goddesses speak to me and I have no doubt as to what they say and the choices they leave to me. They wait patiently for me to walk with them in this life or my next but the cup they offer is one I have turned from before and this time I feel I can not. I have no doubt of that calling and when I have, they have reminded me in their way of its truth and the skills I have to see it thru. But now I have to balance harm to my spirit vs harm to others if I accept the cup and that proves far harder.


If you choose to continue in your current practices, there is nothing that neither myself or your wife can ultimately say or do about that. But even still, as I already noted, your wife's steadfast spirit, with God's help, can see through even this situation should you choose such.

Put on your helmet for the next few words...:uneasy:
Those dogs are not obeying their master. Having been left to their own devices, they circle and circle and circle and will continue to do so until the end, when there is nothing left but to be accepted as faithful or cast out as forgotten. Fortunately, being created in God's image, we are more than dogs.

We see dogs differently, in my faith they are symbols of loyalty, obedience and faithfulness. They are the guides that find the way on trails that we have not walked and who bay to warn us of dangerous we can't see. Each of those dogs offers me a path.. each calls me to oaths given and duties accepted. An they will stop chasing their tails when I tell them which path to go.

[s1mpleton]

I have already sent back those of your faith walking to mine, when they come for the wrong reasons. I spent many years teaching the Bible and witnessing for Christ before I came to this path.. 8 in that Christain walk.. 20+ now as a Pagan. My Gods and Goddesses speak to me and I have no doubt as to what they say and the choices they leave to me. They wait patiently for me to walk with them in this life or my next but the cup they offer is one I have turned from before and this time I feel I can not. I have no doubt of that calling and when I have, they have reminded me in their way of its truth and the skills I have to see it thru. But now I have to balance harm to my spirit vs harm to others if I accept the cup and that proves far harder.
If you wouldn't mind, I would like to hear what brought that 8 years of your Christian walk to an end? I am being bold, as you will readily see below; but I care, so I ask :smile:

We see dogs differently, in my faith they are symbols of loyalty, obedience and faithfulness. They are the guides that find the way on trails that we have not walked and who bay to warn us of dangerous we can't see. Each of those dogs offers me a path.. each calls me to oaths given and duties accepted. An they will stop chasing their tails when I tell them which path to go.This symbology of dogs is noteworthy but for one flawed characteristic. For all their guiding scents and warning barks, they still only answer to you. You are still the ultimate decision maker. Sometimes dangerous paths are the ones that need to be taken even while it is dark. God offers a safety through the danger, not around it; and He offers light through the darkness, not around it. I'll wager that neither your gods nor goddesses offer an intimate relationship that never abandons during those dark and dangerous times.

Your wife is this very analogy exemplified. Has she not accepted the light and been guided by it for the past 20 years? Now it sounds like it is going to get dangerous. Keep your senses tuned to how she fairs through this upcoming wilderness when she lets her guide walk beside her through the danger.

[Durthorin]

If you wouldn't mind, I would like to hear what brought that 8 years of your Christian walk to an end? I am being bold, as you will readily see below; but I care, so I ask :smile:


A long story, but at its simple end I came to a crisis of faith where Christian doctrine conflicted with something I knew at my gut level as wrong. This was a lst straw as over the last few years of that walk I had found more and more things that were round pegs in a sqaure hole. Prayer and Bible study to not give me tha answers and at a point I called to Goddess or your God for an answer.. Goddess answered.


This symbology of dogs is noteworthy but for one flawed characteristic. For all their guiding scents and warning barks, they still only answer to you. You are still the ultimate decision maker. Sometimes dangerous paths are the ones that need to be taken even while it is dark. God offers a safety through the danger, not around it; and He offers light through the darkness, not around it. I'll wager that neither your gods nor goddesses offer an intimate relationship that never abandons during those dark and dangerous times.


Then you would loose your wager. I have walked an in that walk my Gods have always been with me, even when I refused to acknowledge them, even when I was angry at them..and when I turned back or asked they were there. Some years ago, I was in an auto accident. I died according to the doctor three times on the oeprating table.. and when I got out of ICU I was told I would never regain use of my left arm.. and it would be a year before I could move without a walker. I can rememebr going home... an while my wife was out trying to go up the stairs to our bedroom. I can remember falling on those stairs an knowing I had no strength, my body broken.. knowing I could not make it. I can called to her then..I asked her to help me.. and the strngth came.. I stood and walked up those stairs. within a month, I had full use o my arm back and was running three miles each morning. Does the Goddess walk with me thru the dark times? Oh, yes.. without doubt.. or hesitation I know this. She has spoken to me, blessed me and lent me her strength when mine was not enough.


Your wife is this very analogy exemplified. Has she not accepted the light and been guided by it for the past 20 years? Now it sounds like it is going to get dangerous. Keep your senses tuned to how she fairs through this upcoming wilderness when she lets her guide walk beside her through the danger.

We will see, I have joked with her from time to time their are advantages to being the wife of a man who sees her as an aspect of the Goddess.

[s1mpleton]

A long story, but at its simple end I came to a crisis of faith where Christian doctrine conflicted with something I knew at my gut level as wrong. This was a lst straw as over the last few years of that walk I had found more and more things that were round pegs in a sqaure hole. Prayer and Bible study to not give me tha answers and at a point I called to Goddess or your God for an answer.. Goddess answered.
Again, I pry even further; so stop whenever it's gone too far. How were you able to decipher your goddess answering you as opposed to God doing so?

Then you would loose your wager. I have walked an in that walk my Gods have always been with me, even when I refused to acknowledge them, even when I was angry at them..and when I turned back or asked they were there. Some years ago, I was in an auto accident. I died according to the doctor three times on the oeprating table.. and when I got out of ICU I was told I would never regain use of my left arm.. and it would be a year before I could move without a walker. I can rememebr going home... an while my wife was out trying to go up the stairs to our bedroom. I can remember falling on those stairs an knowing I had no strength, my body broken.. knowing I could not make it. I can called to her then..I asked her to help me.. and the strngth came.. I stood and walked up those stairs. within a month, I had full use o my arm back and was running three miles each morning. Does the Goddess walk with me thru the dark times? Oh, yes.. without doubt.. or hesitation I know this. She has spoken to me, blessed me and lent me her strength when mine was not enough.How do you come to know that your goddess will never leave you? Who or what has told you this? I'm not very familiar with the roots of paganism.

We will see, I have joked with her from time to time their are advantages to being the wife of a man who sees her as an aspect of the Goddess.If only many other men would see their wives in the same fashion :wink: Minus the worship, IMHO.

[Durthorin]

Again, I pry even further; so stop whenever it's gone too far. How were you able to decipher your goddess answering you as opposed to God doing so?


Wasn't a matter of decipher. It was a clear one line answer to the question I had. When I heard it the stress, tension, frustration and confusion in my mind and spirt left. I was at peace with myself. As a Christian getting answers from God was a matter of the ops manual (the Bible)..


How do you come to know that your goddess will never leave you? Who or what has told you this? I'm not very familiar with the roots of paganism.


She has. An its part of who and what I am as a Pagan.. the Gods and Goddesses I follow are family.. Brighid, Danu, The Morrigan.. Lugh.


If only many other men would see their wives in the same fashion :wink: Minus the worship, IMHO.

Trust me.. wives want husbands to worship them.. offerings are accepted in the form of choclate, flowers.. jewlry and most imprtantly.. your undivided and total attention. <chuckle> In Pagan relationship that of course works both ways.. as she is Goddess so he is God.. they reflect the aspects of male and female and are incomplete and imbalanced without one another. One reason *some* Pagans believe Christianity has taken a left turn is that they see it as out of balance, you get into concepts of the divine feminie at this point and a different conversation.

[s1mpleton]

Wasn't a matter of decipher. It was a clear one line answer to the question I had. When I heard it the stress, tension, frustration and confusion in my mind and spirt left. I was at peace with myself. As a Christian getting answers from God was a matter of the ops manual (the Bible)..
Having an operator's manual is nice, I admit that. It is proof, edification and guidance all in one. But communication between God and myself is by no means limited to that.

She has. An its part of who and what I am as a Pagan.. the Gods and Goddesses I follow are family.. Brighid, Danu, The Morrigan.. Lugh.Does that not splinter your hope, knowing they may not always be there, possibly when you need them most?

Trust me.. wives want husbands to worship them.. offerings are accepted in the form of choclate, flowers.. jewlry and most imprtantly.. your undivided and total attention. <chuckle> In Pagan relationship that of course works both ways.. as she is Goddess so he is God.. they reflect the aspects of male and female and are incomplete and imbalanced without one another. One reason *some* Pagans believe Christianity has taken a left turn is that they see it as out of balance, you get into concepts of the divine feminie at this point and a different conversation.There is no out of balance, which is the most crucial of issues here. God is good, and what isn't God is a perversion of the good. We call that perversion evil. There is no balance of power. Evil is the absence of good (check out this current post (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=91518) I started recently to get a better understanding of what I mean). You see, there doesn't need to be anything to keep good and evil in check. There's nothing to check.

ASIDE:
This conversation is rather educational. While I have no expectations that my witness to you would change your heart and mind, I still hope as your wife does.

[Durthorin]

Does that not splinter your hope, knowing they may not always be there, possibly when you need them most?


They have always been there when I need them, they give every indication they will continue.. I have faith in them.


There is no out of balance, which is the most crucial of issues here. God is good, and what isn't God is a perversion of the good. We call that perversion evil. There is no balance of power. Evil is the absence of good (check out this current post (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=91518) I started recently to get a better understanding of what I mean). You see, there doesn't need to be anything to keep good and evil in check. There's nothing to check.


Odd, the presence of God is everywhere.. so therefore Good is everywhere.. but if evil exists, theologically it is the absence of good.. ie God.. and God is thus not everywhere.. Odd paradox you have there.




ASIDE:
This conversation is rather educational. While I have no expectations that my witness to you would change your heart and mind, I still hope as your wife does.


I try to be both amusing and educational. :smile: As to your hope.. I will take them in the spirit meant.

Be well, Dur

[s1mpleton]

They have always been there when I need them, they give every indication they will continue.. I have faith in them.
My apologies, I must have misunderstood your response when I first asked how you knew your goddess would always be there. When you responded, "She has," I thought you meant, 'she has left you at times in the passed' and that you weren't assured. I missed your opposition to the negative of my question in your response.

Odd, the presence of God is everywhere.. I have never believed that God's presence is everywhere. I believe it could be if He wanted to be, i.e. His omnipresent capability; but God specifically notes, for instance, in the Bible that when two or more gather in His name, He will be there or become present. I don't know why he would say that if he were already there all the time.

so therefore Good is everywhere.. but if evil exists, theologically it is the absence of good.. ie God.. and God is thus not everywhere.. Odd paradox you have there.Good eminates from its source, that is God; but, in association with what I noted just above, it does not necessitate His presence being literally everywhere. This falls in line with my belief that evil is the absence of good. I have no paradox.

[Salty]

Why as a Pagan am I here on Tweb? To promote understanding? To engage in a dialogue that seeks to at least gain a level of mutual respect? Why? At one point I posted on a regular basis, debated, argued and tried to maintain my center while doing it. I then fell to lurking because I was tired of the same argument/debate over and over.. So why am I here?

Durthorin, did you find your answer?

I was wondering the same thing this morning when I browsed into this forum and saw this thread. How synchronicitic. (do you mind if I make up a word on the spot? :-)

I've not been active on TWeb for the last few years. I posted a bit when I first joined, then fell ill, then got too busy with other things, and have only recently wandered back in. The impression I got a few years ago was that this should be called Christian TheologyWeb, since it's owned and moderated by Christians mainly as a place for Christians to argue with other Christians, with a few side shows like the Wicca, Judaism and Islam forums where Christians are given free reign to have at the non-Christians, like clowns in a dunking booth at the fair. Maybe it's changed since then, but in the past I've seen too many examples where the Christians (one in particular I'm thinking of) were allowed to attack the non-Christians without restraint from the moderators, but anything resembling a taunt in return would bring discipline by the mods. I certainly hope that part has changed.

Anyway, the reality is that the only reason for non-Christians and Christians alike to be here is for the sole pleasure of the debate. Maybe the desire to defend our faiths plays a small part, too, but mostly it's for people who just love to argue. It's not like anyone will change their minds about anything from any discussion they have here (or am I just being pessimistic?), so that rules out any practical hope of using the forum as a proceytizing tool.

But hey, after all, the slogan of the site is "We Debate..." Do you need another reason? :lol:

[Lady Macbeth]

I guess part of this is a question if I'm contributing to "my" faith with the time I spend here.. Perhaps the best answer I have is yours and Dee's.

I don't know about you, but I originally came here and wander back every once in a while because I don't understand why there has to be a violent spewing forth of capital letters every time a Pagan and a Christian meet on the Internet. Through exploring some, I've found that - at least in areas of TWeb that I'm allowed to post - that doesn't always happen. It's a nice change, sometimes.

I was wondering the same thing this morning when I browsed into this forum and saw this thread. How synchronicitic. (do you mind if I make up a word on the spot? :-)

Must be something in the Pagan water... :lol: that's part of the reason I've been browsing TWeb more heavily the last few days. I came back for a visit after a PM from one of the members reminded me about the site, but then found a whole lot of nothing to reply to (mostly because I'm not allowed to post in the forums that interesting topics were posted to). Over the last couple days I've been browsing for some reason to keep being a member here...guess I found it. ;)

[northerncanada]

I tossed around the Idea of converting to Wiccan I enjoy the Natural aspect of the religion, but not sure about the Idea of worshiping Goddesses.

In the Druid religion it followed the Earth's cycles, and brought importance to harvest of the earth's bounty, more than the Christian religion has done for man/woman kind.

In the past Christian religion was aggressive, and conversionary, I don't think the Wiccan religion held such aggressive tendancies. After the Inquisition in which many died due to the church using the Witchcraft excuse to gain power over many that disagreed with the church, it brings question to the validity of the church, and its peaceful influence on man/woman kind.

I think that the church has done much damage on the earth, and to have Peace would be to get rid of all religion, and go back to a more earth based religion.

[Salty]

In the Druid religion it followed the Earth's cycles, and brought importance to harvest of the earth's bounty, more than the Christian religion has done for man/woman kind.I didn't realize we knew very much at all about the Druidic religion. What do we know, and where did this information come from?
I think that the church has done much damage on the earth, and to have Peace would be to get rid of all religion, and go back to a more earth based religion.You really mean "get rid of all religions that originated in the Middle East", right? Which earth-based religion do you suggest we adopt? Druidism?

[Darth Executor]

Some of you. Some I'm afraid actually horrify me.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Kinda late but am I one of the latter? :teeth:

[tmancour]

I tossed around the Idea of converting to Wiccan I enjoy the Natural aspect of the religion, but not sure about the Idea of worshiping Goddesses.

Why the issue? Do you have an issue with women? Druidism, you will find, reveres the Goddess in all of Her forms. Indeed, in order to practice the principal of spiritual balance, having male gods without female goddesses would not work.



In the Druid religion it followed the Earth's cycles, and brought importance to harvest of the earth's bounty, more than the Christian religion has done for man/woman kind.



Highly debatable. While Druidism encompassed a period in Celtic history from their beginnings as nomadic herder-ranchers to their time as agriculturalists, their emphasis seemed to be less on the planting/harvesting cycles and more on the preservation of knowlege and lore in regards to law, medicine, etc. And while I have SEVERE issues with the Abrahamic faiths, it can be argued that Christianity's biggest benefit (like Buddhism and Islaam) was to encourage literacy. We can all read now, though. Thanks. Time to move on.


In the past Christian religion was aggressive, and conversionary, I don't think the Wiccan religion held such aggressive tendancies. After the Inquisition in which many died due to the church using the Witchcraft excuse to gain power over many that disagreed with the church, it brings question to the validity of the church, and its peaceful influence on man/woman kind.


"In the past"? Christianity, in all of its manifold forms, has almost always had a missionary spirit that has made it one of the largest and most reviled tools of cultural imperialism in history. But don't think that Wicca and the other Pagan religions are somehow "peaceful". There are Pagan pacifists. There are Pagan warriors serving in Iraq and Afghanistan even as we speak. The difference is that we would never use force to compel someone to worship our gods, or to adopt our way of thinking.


I think that the church has done much damage on the earth, and to have Peace would be to get rid of all religion, and go back to a more earth based religion.


You can't get rid of all religion. And there is no garuntee that returning wholesale to earth-base polytheistic religions would ensure Peace. "Peace" as such is an ideal that few, if any, human societies have enjoyed. Organized Religion (especially the Radical Monotheisms) is certainly to blame for their share of war and death, but largely because they legitimize mankind's natural violence by giving it a veneer of religious acceptance. Buddhism is the only one of the Big Three that has been able to avoid this.

Arion the Blue

[s1mpleton]

Why the issue? Do you have an issue with women? Druidism, you will find, reveres the Goddess in all of Her forms. Indeed, in order to practice the principal of spiritual balance, having male gods without female goddesses would not work.



Highly debatable. While Druidism encompassed a period in Celtic history from their beginnings as nomadic herder-ranchers to their time as agriculturalists, their emphasis seemed to be less on the planting/harvesting cycles and more on the preservation of knowlege and lore in regards to law, medicine, etc. And while I have SEVERE issues with the Abrahamic faiths, it can be argued that Christianity's biggest benefit (like Buddhism and Islaam) was to encourage literacy. We can all read now, though. Thanks. Time to move on.



"In the past"? Christianity, in all of its manifold forms, has almost always had a missionary spirit that has made it one of the largest and most reviled tools of cultural imperialism in history. But don't think that Wicca and the other Pagan religions are somehow "peaceful". There are Pagan pacifists. There are Pagan warriors serving in Iraq and Afghanistan even as we speak. The difference is that we would never use force to compel someone to worship our gods, or to adopt our way of thinking.




You can't get rid of all religion. And there is no garuntee that returning wholesale to earth-base polytheistic religions would ensure Peace. "Peace" as such is an ideal that few, if any, human societies have enjoyed. Organized Religion (especially the Radical Monotheisms) is certainly to blame for their share of war and death, but largely because they legitimize mankind's natural violence by giving it a veneer of religious acceptance. Buddhism is the only one of the Big Three that has been able to avoid this.

Arion the Blue
I've seen skewed reviews of the Christian faith before. I suppose we'll have to chalk this one right there with them as well.

Christianity, in its purest form, is peaceful. The violence, mandated convergence and radical fundamentalists to which you seemed to have ascribe the entire faith are the zealots. All beliefs, religious or not, display this very same nature. Why? Because we're all human. And like the rest of the human race, Christians are wrong sometimes too.

What do you believe? Whatever it is,that is who you are. It determines what decisions you make from day to day. Ever make mistakes? Ever do absolutely the wrong thing? Ever do the right thing?

"The Christian faith is wrong because wrong things have been done in its name". Can you admit that maybe that's pretty lame?

[s1mpleton]

On another note, Arion the Blue, I've thought before of starting a thread on the quote you have in your sig by Obiwan Kenobi, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes".

I'm a big fan of Star Wars, so I inevitably study its underlying religion and morality. Obiwan's quote is a doozy for Christian Star Wars fans like myself.

I think I'll start a thread on it. I didn't want to go ahead and do so without letting you in on it first, since it seems you would have some rather interesting conversation to lend to it. In any case, I'll try to get to it soon. Keep an eye out.

-s1m.

[tmancour]

I've seen skewed reviews of the Christian faith before. I suppose we'll have to chalk this one right there with them as well.


"Skewed"? Only in the sense that I have my own unique perspective on the religion, having been a Christian for half of my life and having studied it far more in-depth than most do. But I'll bite: let's see how your view and mine might differ. That's "WHY" (see thread title) we are here, isn't it?



Christianity, in its purest form, is peaceful.

Let's begin here, shall we? "In its purest form" implies that Christianity is somehow a quantifiable thing, theologically speaking; that it can be graded on a spectrum between purity and debasement. This is usually determined by choice of, and adherence to, a particular scripture, said determination being the basis of the judgement of purity.

I maintain that individual perspective, cultural reletivity, and blind adherence to doctrine intrinsically colors any claim of 'purity' or "debasement". Which is the "purest" form of Christianity? Eastern Orthodox? Catholicism? Protestantism? Coptic? And those are merely the main divisions. And is your selected doctrine and denomination universally hailed as more "pure" than others? Or do you maintain that "pure Christianity" lies within the human heart (in the New-Agey Christ Consciousness manner) and therefore can't be packaged and sold by denomination?

As to the peaceful nature of the religion, I admit that Christianity, in general, espouses a peaceful approach to life in this world. For the first two or three centuries I think it could justly make that claim as a religion in general. I don't think I need to bring up the religion's many military faux pas here to point out that it has often been used as justification for all sorts of very non-peaceful action (with that Get Out of Hell Free escape clause to take care of any messy atrocities committed in the Name Of The Lord, of course).

But I also think that the very concept of Evangelism is violent, on an abstract level. Sure, from the missionary persepective, you are doing your best to save souls from an eternity of damnation (based on precious little evidence and centuries of faulty understanding of source documents). But from the perspective of the Evangelizees, consider how it looks: for centuries your people have developed a religion, an ontology, and a mythology uniquely suited to their situation and environment. Then a monk appears preaching a radical new religion from a land you've never heard of, claiming all sorts of mystical benefits if you abandon the system of belief of your ancestors. Oh, the peace you'll have! The prosperity! The tight relationship to the Demiurge! And, of course, the Big Prize: YOU DON'T HAVE TO DIE! (some restrictions may apply; void where prohibited).

SO you toss out the family gods (who have seen you through some tough times, ensured the fertility of the land and the social cohesion of the culture -- but they don't offer the Big Prize) and abandon a goodly part of your culture, only to discover that living under Christian lords feels an awful lot like living under Pagan lords, except now you have to give one tenth of everything you earn to the monk, as well. Even if you don't choose to follow the monk, everyone else in the neighborhood is doing it, and as soon as the foreign religion is strong enough it starts siezing political power and enforcing conversion by violence, social ostracisation, or severe economic penalty. Other than that, life goes on, just as miserable as before, only now you can't tell the stories of your ancestors for fear of persecution, unless you change the names and give it a Christian veneer. Oh, and no more sex, unless it is officially sanctioned by the Church. As a matter of fact, let's just keep the women on a real tight leash, while we're at it.


The violence, mandated convergence and radical fundamentalists to which you seemed to have ascribe the entire faith are the zealots.

Wouldn't those be Christian zealots? Or "not-really-Christian" zealots? Are they more or less devout than their less-zealous peers? Are they more or less saved? How do you know? How can I tell the difference? It mystifies me: If Peace is something you hold as a premium, why do you tolerate allowing such violent thugs to profane the sacred message of Peace found in "pure" Christianity with their warlike ways?


All beliefs, religious or not, display this very same nature. Why? Because we're all human. And like the rest of the human race, Christians are wrong sometimes too.

No argument about that. My issue, however, is not with the zealotry -- I respect the right of any religion to have hard-core, even militant practitioners (Paganism has its share). What I don't respect is zealous Evangelism. The problem is that your religion doesn't often allow people to be "wrong" about religion. Indeed, it takes great offence at the notion that there are people out there perfectly happy to go along with their lives without being Christians. But instead of acting like the peaceful Buddhist missionaries, who used reason, persuasion, and understanding to promote their religion, Christianity went more like Islaam and insisted on its viewpoint by coercion, sheer volume, and political domination.


What do you believe? Whatever it is,that is who you are. It determines what decisions you make from day to day. Ever make mistakes? Ever do absolutely the wrong thing? Ever do the right thing?


In Paganism we do not place the premium on what we believe ("Orthodoxy" = "Correct Thought"). We understand how our beliefs inform our decisions, of course, but what we believe is secondary to what we do ("Orthopraxy" = "Correct Action"). Yes, Pagans make mistakes, just as Christians do. The difference is that Christians seem to have no problem making the same mistakes over and over again, knowing that their loving Savior is ready to take them back again with open arms. It seems that the Christians who have acheived greatest status in their religions are the ones who have done the most wrong, then repented when conveniet to do so. And if they fall off the wagon, a little more prayer and meditation will restore Grace and make it all better until next time. As spiritually valuable as unconditional love and forgiveness might be, the mistakes keep happening. What is important in Christianity, though, is what the person who makes the mistakes believes. That trumps all.

In Paganism, in general, we place our premium on Wisdom. That is, we prefer to try to avoid the mistakes, even if there are valuable spiritual lessons contained within. And when we make a mistake we own up to it, accept responsibility, attempt to correct it, and, most importantly, learn from the experience so that we do not repeat it. Repeating mistakes is a sign that you have departed the Path of Wisdom, and should take the equivalent of a "time out" until you figure out where you went wrong. We don't care which particular aspect of Divinity you invoke to do so, or how, what we care about is that you learned from your damn mistakes. Modern Paganism is replete with techiques for doing just that. Are their foolish Pagans out there? Truckloads. But, for the most part, they are using the tools of meditation, introspection, conversation, and other, less mundane resources to learn from them. Or they get a bad rep and no one wants to play with them any more and the girls won't dance with them.



"The Christian faith is wrong because wrong things have been done in its name". Can you admit that maybe that's pretty lame?


Perhaps. But I would have phrased it more like "The Christian Faith is pathologically disturbed at a fundamental level, and the consequence of that basic flaw is that wrong gets done in the name of the religion all the time and most Christians think that's an acceptable and normal thing."

[Darth Executor]

"Evil is just a point of view." Darth Sidious

I question the sanity of anyone who quotes any of the retarded contradictory dialogue in the last Star Wars movie.

[tmancour]

By making such a statement, you have revealed far more about yourself than about me.

[s1mpleton]

tmancour,

You touched on many different points, and I’m having trouble keeping them all straight. Not that you didn’t explain yourself well enough. I think you did for the most part; but you did say a lot, and I don’t have that much time to give in response. Wish I did. In any case, I’ll do my best to reply to what I gathered as your overall statement…

Left-field.

That’s the term that first came to mind after studying your response; but then I realized. Your not in left-field. You are simply misinformed and have been dealt some ugly hands. As we all have about many different aspects of life. I am no exception. Unfortunately, this lends itself to seemingly mild and innocent assumptions about what Christianity really is without really living it. This is because of a misunderstanding of the teaching of Christ. But don’t worry, you’re not alone; and many who claim to be Christians are leading the pack. I don’t just mean modern-day Christians. I’m referring to the ones who started to think of their “religion” selfishly – that 200 or 300 years following Christ’s “original evangelism”.

Are the zealots wrong? Only when their zealotry is self-centered. Christ’s life was 100% selfless. When Christianity is practiced this way (and that’s what I meant by “purist” – sorry for the confusion), you won’t have the Crusades, Salem witch trials, bombings of abortions clinics, etc. This isn’t particular to a denomination or orthodoxy.

The very basics of Christ’s teachings are the foundation of all the different Christian viewpoints. Many houses have the same foundations when built; but they can look very different on both the outside and inside. The reasons the Christian viewpoints can vary so greatly are basically two-fold. One is our unique human nature. We were created in His likeness, but yet unique. I am not completely like you, nor you like me. In fact, there is no one else like you or me. The other reason, which is at fault, is our erred human nature – when we act selfishly. I challenge you to find any wrong-doing done in any religions’ name that was not self-centered at its core.

I perused your paragraphs concerning evangelism’s violence, Christianity’s promises of material prosperity, peer pressure tactics and so on and so forth. They all point to one faulted issue. Selfishness – Christ’s original teachings “skewed, peverted and misdirected”.

On another note: You ask, “If Peace is something you hold as a premium, why do you tolerate allowing such violent thugs to profane the sacred message of Peace found in "pure" Christianity with their warlike ways?”
Answer: I don’t tolerate it. But if I profess that Christianity is ultimately peaceful and that God is in control in ways I won’t always understand; how can I not temper my reaction with wisdom and patience?

On the intolerance of basic Christianity. Yes. It is very intolorant to all self-centered practices. Christ’s life and teachings are, again, an example of this. But what is wrong with not tolerating what I believe is wrong? The same people claiming I am not tolerant are practicing intollerant behaviour. It’s one of the silliest and saddest commentaries on our world’s current state of mind.

Another odd thought process you developed was that of assuming all Christians qualify Christ as their crutch, that they feel free to sin and repent, sin and repent, sin and repent, wash and rinse and repeat. Some do; but that practice isn’t Biblical no matter which way you scrub the bubbles.

Your claim that Christians are not meant to strive to avoid mistakes or sin: Tom Fullery. Let’s stay on track here and dispense with the misinterpretations and far-out assumptions based. The Bible, being the written basis for Christian belief, does not allow for casual gaming. You live it or you don’t. Taking time to be selfish is, well, selfish.

In you last line you state, “The Christian Faith is pathologically disturbed at a fundamental level.” I hope I’ve shed some light on the subject.

However, having said all that (and I do believe it), I would be remiss in a very unfair manner to not admit that what you see – the Christians from whom you draw your conclusions – should be the examples of Christ, as flawed as they are. I hope and pray life brings you in touch with faithful followers genuinely full of Christ’s love rather than a selfish intrepretation of it.

Respectfully,
-s1m

[s1mpleton]

Darth Executor and tmancour,

I've always tempered quotes with the knowledge that I didn't say it; so it won't always fit exactly what I believe. However, they sure can be great conversation-starters, or thread-starters in our case.

The trick is understanding that such a quote is only something about what one believes, not everything.

-s1m

[Losvedir]

Why as a Pagan am I here on Tweb? To promote understanding? To engage in a dialogue that seeks to at least gain a level of mutual respect? Why? At one point I posted on a regular basis, debated, argued and tried to maintain my center while doing it. I then fell to lurking because I was tired of the same argument/debate over and over.. So why am I here?
I don't know if you're still here or not, but maybe you'll see this.

I don't think we've really had any discussions between us even though we've both been on Tweb for a long time, but I've certainly read tons of your posts. They're always so insightful and gentle that I've been very impressed by them and you. Prior to coming here I had no idea that Pagans were still around, and the vague notions that I had were horribly off.

So I don't know why you're here, but it has been incredibly useful and eye-opening to me, anyway. Maybe you've left a critical mass of posts in the archives that your presence is no longer needed, but I dunno, I don't think many other people go through tons of old posts for fun.

Blessed Be, :wink:
Gabe