Asatru for Newbies

[yibyab]

I've been browsing TWeb for awhile now, and I am reluctant to make my first post by starting a new topic rather than joining in on existing ones first as a way of introduction, but my focus is pretty narrow and I'd like to see if there are others that can help me find my way.

I'm a Christian who's been recently exposed to Heathenry, and I'm fascinated by it. By "fascinated," I mean it's a peculiar brand of theology that seems anachronistic and I am trying to understand its modern expression. My agenda is not to criticize, though I do approach the inspection with a critical eye.

The problem I have is that trying to get a handle on Asatru "theology" is like trying to nail jello to a tree. (Not my expression, but a good one.) It's as if Heathenry is so averse to dogma that there seems to be no willingness to declare any belief in Asatru as necessary. So as I try to assemble what amounts to a systematic theology, it constantly eludes my grasp with the only essential tenet being that ancestry is key (though not necessarily required) for being called by the gods, and that each person must find his own way and no one way is the correct and only way. Beyond that, it's as if you can believe anything and still claim to be Tru.

If there are any Asatruar here willing to share some thoughts with me and answer questions (and though I won't be belligerant or intentionally derogatory, realize that I may be critical and challenging, just as I accept others are of Christianity when I'm engaged in apologetics there).

There's already some water under my bridge, having engaged in a follower of the folkish variety of Norse Heathenry, and that dialogue ended poorly, with it winding down to simply what she believed rather than any claims to being representative of Heathenry at large. One of the last points I had been asking about was that of the relationship of the Norse gods (Odin, Tyr, etc.) to other claimed gods, ancestral or otherwise. I was of the conclusion that Asatruar do not believe they are physically descended from a parenthood relationship with divine beings and accepted the common descent of all human beings. Given the sensitivity of racial politics that is at the periphery of Heathenry, there are many who emphasize that Asatru is not restrictive. Only that ancestry is important. Be that as it may, I can't comprehend the explanation for the adherent's relationship with these ancestral gods and also the allowance that other ancestral gods are valid.

From an Asatruar perspective, are the gods of Shinto, ancient Egypt, the various meso-American belief systems, etc. true and valid? Are they the same gods only with different names or are they actually different truly existing gods who bear a unique relationship with their own familiar race of human beings? Does the Asatruar hold that the human race is a patchwork of cultures and tribes, each physically descended or uniquely created by their ancestral god/gods?

(Sorry for the long-winded intro.)

[Durthorin]

....
From an Asatruar perspective, are the gods of Shinto, ancient Egypt, the various meso-American belief systems, etc. true and valid? Are they the same gods only with different names or are they actually different truly existing gods who bear a unique relationship with their own familiar race of human beings? Does the Asatruar hold that the human race is a patchwork of cultures and tribes, each physically descended or uniquely created by their ancestral god/gods?

(Sorry for the long-winded intro.)

I'm celtic/Wiccan as far as it goes but I know a number of the Troth and have discussed their theology if thats helpful. Keeping in mind that your getting a third party other Pagan repeating it..

The Asatru are first off true polytheists. They do not feel that there is anything like the Divine and from it sprung male/female diety with aspects of God and Goddess which humanity named and worshipped. They feel that the Gods/Goddesses are indivdual and arose from within and for each people and culture. It causes them to be rather "annoyed" with those like some of my Wiccan brethren who adopt a Nordic God or Goddess without knowing the culture or theology. I think the exact phrase was "I have my grandmother, you have yours.. saying my grandmother appeals to you doesn't give you the right to call her -your- grandmother." But the Troth also as matter of policy says this


We regard our faith neither as a set of abstract theological and ethical concepts existing in a cultural vacuum, nor as a representative of, or replacement for, any other European, or Indo-European, religion. There are numerous and significant differences between Germanic spirituality and the spiritual heritage of the Celts, Greeks, Slavs and other European peoples, and we see no particular benefit in confusing one with another. But while we strive to maintain the spiritual and cultural integrity and coherence of our practice of Germanic religion, we do not advance some theory or "requirement" that any particular quantum of Germanic ancestry is necessary in order for a person to understand our faith and practice it together with us. In fact, many of our members were attracted to Heathenry at least in part because of their personal ancestry, and it is perfectly understandable, healthy and valid for someone to have an interest in understanding and participating in the indigenous spiritual heritage of his or her ancestors, especially in view of the importance of ancestor and kinship relationships within Germanic -- and virtually every other indigenous -- religious tradition.

However cross-cultural and cross-ethnic identifications, assimilations and "adoptions" existed at various times and places in Heathen Europe, and we see no reason to exclude or discourage them now. If a person has a defining personal commitment to the gods and goddesses of Asgard and to the spirituality they represent, and lives within the moral/ethical principles inherent in Northern Heathen religion and culture, then he/she is welcome among us, as one of us, without any restrictions, disabilities, or "special" status. Such is the scope of our hospitality to newcomers, and our acceptance of members within our community.

[yibyab]

Keeping in mind that your getting a third party other Pagan repeating it..I understand, though I would like a first party perspective too. In my short time examining Norse Heathenry, it has become apparent to me that there is a lot of room for individualization in the interpretation or explanation of the system of belief. So most of the dialogue winds up being "this is what I believe" rather than "this is what Heathens believe." And it seems that many Heathens resent non-Heathens expounding on what Heathens do or do not believe, precisely because there is such a wide range and very little doctrine.

They feel that the Gods/Goddesses are indivdual and arose from within and for each people and culture. This is where I'm stumbling right now. And maybe it's my predisposition based on my Christian concept of what "god" means. But what I'm looking for is what constitutes the relationship between a god or the gods and his/their people? For instance, I believe that all humans are descended from the original creative act of a Creator god. It doesn't sound like the same is said in Asatru. Most (I think) Heathens will still subscribe to a common descent of all living human beings, but others (apparently) believe that their ancestral origins bear a direct lineage from their gods, and that lineage is not shared by all the human race. Or do they?

What you say is is that they feel the gods "arose from within." This is reversed from the Norse understanding that the first peoples came after the existence of the gods, and that gods are not merely men elevated to deity, but a different class of being. Anthropologically, I can understand the explanation that different peoples and cultures come to describe god or gods uniquely. But that's a case of man creating god, not gods creating man, and if an adherent actually believes that, then you can't really classify his belief as a faith but as an artifact of culture. I'm pretty certain Heathens would be as unwilling to concede that as a Christian would that his or her religion isn't really true but a cultural expression.

Somehow, the Heathen should be able to explain, even to the non-Heathen, the relationship not just between his gods and himself, but the relationship between his gods and the rest of the human race. I appreciate the noble concept of honoring the beliefs of ones ancestors, but I'm having a hard time appreciating or even apprehending how that honoring translates to transcendent truth about the creation of all mankind and the role of the god(s) in that event.

[Durthorin]

I understand, though I would like a first party perspective too. In my short time examining Norse Heathenry, it has become apparent to me that there is a lot of room for individualization in the interpretation or explanation of the system of belief. So most of the dialogue winds up being "this is what I believe" rather than "this is what Heathens believe." And it seems that many Heathens resent non-Heathens expounding on what Heathens do or do not believe, precisely because there is such a wide range and very little doctrine.


I'll try to get a freind of mine with the Troth to drop in then and give you a hand or at least allow me to give you an email address. Baring that see the link below which will take you to a basic course and a number of accepted resources for Heathens including discussion groups where you can get some first hand information

http://www.asatru-u.org/beginner/asau-beginner-outline.htm#part1A



This is where I'm stumbling right now. And maybe it's my predisposition based on my Christian concept of what "god" means. But what I'm looking for is what constitutes the relationship between a god or the gods and his/their people? For instance, I believe that all humans are descended from the original creative act of a Creator god. It doesn't sound like the same is said in Asatru. Most (I think) Heathens will still subscribe to a common descent of all living human beings, but others (apparently) believe that their ancestral origins bear a direct lineage from their gods, and that lineage is not shared by all the human race. Or do they?


I think your running into a general Pagan belief that A. we don't know.. and B. It doesn't matter.


What you say is is that they feel the gods "arose from within." This is reversed from the Norse understanding that the first peoples came after the existence of the gods, and that gods are not merely men elevated to deity, but a different class of being.


As a Pagan belief Yes the Gods came before us.. how they created mankind or if all mankind was created by one group of the Gods.. doesn't change a relationship that is more younger sibling to older sibling.