Druidic Thought

[joshuadrox]

Anyone familiar with Druidic thought ??

In particular, I'm interested in their splitting the year into two halves, a light & a dark .. like night & day.

Day begins on May 1st, and Night on November 1st.

I also remember something about the number 21 and its association to an 'awakening'.

Thanks for the input.

[Simeon]

Anyone familiar with Druidic thought ??

In particular, I'm interested in their splitting the year into two halves, a light & a dark .. like night & day.

Day begins on May 1st, and Night on November 1st.

I also remember something about the number 21 and its association to an 'awakening'.

Thanks for the input.

Any thoughts about live human sacrifice in the Druid "path"?

[Scruffy]

Anyone familiar with Druidic thought ??

In particular, I'm interested in their splitting the year into two halves, a light & a dark .. like night & day.

Day begins on May 1st, and Night on November 1st.

I also remember something about the number 21 and its association to an 'awakening'.

Thanks for the input.

Here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta04.htm) is a good read on Druids in general.

[technomage]

Here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta04.htm) is a good read on Druids in general.

Hi, Scruffy,

With all due respect, Hall's book is three quarters imagination and one quarter moonbeams. Much of what was written about the Druids in the "popular press" of that time was little more than Romantic maunderings and wishful thinking.

The fundamental problem is that we don't know what the Druids taught. The only documentation of their actions or beliefs comes from very unsympathetic enemies who were at war with the various Celtic tribes--the Romans. There is precious little unreliable documentation, and even less that's reliable.

Any thoughts about live human sacrifice in the Druid "path"?

It's quite true--the Druids probably practiced human sacrifice. We have ... eh, I think there's only been one or two probable sacrifices found, both of them bog preserved bodies, and both I believe were from the North Country (Northumberland), but it's been a while since I read it, so I may be wrong.

Anyone familiar with Druidic thought ??

In particular, I'm interested in their splitting the year into two halves, a light & a dark .. like night & day.

Day begins on May 1st, and Night on November 1st.

I also remember something about the number 21 and its association to an 'awakening'.

Thanks for the input.

Both of the examples you give (the bipartate year and the importance of the number 21) are from Victorian thought, not from solid documentation.

Now, that having been said, there is some information available on the Druids--it's just not much. Ár nDraíocht Féin has some information, and though they've also cheerfully added to the bare bones of available information to make a viable working "path"--sorry, no sacrifices, human or otherwise--they make very clear distinctions between what was researched and what was added.

Hope that helps. :)

[Shadow Phoenix]

This thread is being moved to the Wicca thread. Carry on.

[technomage]

We've been moved! :hehe:

Thanks, AP. :smile:

[Shadow Phoenix]

We've been moved! :hehe:

Thanks, AP. :smile:

NP my friend.

*Ducks out*

[Scruffy]

Hi, Scruffy,

With all due respect, Hall's book is three quarters imagination and one quarter moonbeams. Much of what was written about the Druids in the "popular press" of that time was little more than Romantic maunderings and wishful thinking.



Hi, COM,

With all due respect...who the hell do you think you are? You're entitled to your opinion...but jeesh you seem to think you know more than Hall, a respected scholar in the field. Are you a respected scholar in the field? If so, let's see some credentials.

[technomage]

Hi, COM,

With all due respect...who the hell do you think you are?

Scruffy, I have spent the last fifteen years practicing one form of Neopaganism, and learning about the others. Yes, Hall was an academic and a respected scholar, but he was working with the information available at his time. More information has become available. That certainly does not degrade Hall's work, but it does mean that if more information is available to us, then we should evaluate his work in terms of ALL the evidence available..

[MR SQUIGGLE]

Scruffy, I have spent the last fifteen years practicing one form of Neopaganism, and learning about the others. Yes, Hall was an academic and a respected scholar, but he was working with the information available at his time. More information has become available. That certainly does not degrade Hall's work, but it does mean that if more information is available to us, then we should evaluate his work in terms of ALL the evidence available..


AN interesting book is one called URIELS MACHINE by professors lomas and cook...it is very deep and takes a lot of backtracking at times to re-read sections that cross reference each other!
basically the whole of the book is dedicated to the mathematical breakdown of 'henges' all over the world...and their relationship to the lozenges found on pottery at corresponding latitudes.....
The connection to druidism....is that these acknowleged scholars in the field of archaeology..have been able to pin point the occupation of the celtic druids at these places at different places on the globe.
there is also a theory that the lia fail...the crowning stone of england was actually brought to scotland by the zedokite priests...and was the same stone used as a pilow by the biblical prophet jeramiah
There is also some speculation that many of the egyptian priesthood came over by ship to study cosmology at stonehenge.
The blue stones were transported from scotland ... and would have taken far superior technology than the britons had at that time!
It is speculated that he same technology that was used in the construction of the pyramids was employed to achieve this....a lot of credible evidence is also given.
ANOTHER interesting book......by llewellyn press- wales.is ''the 21 lessons of merlin''.....this book was supposedly researched by the authour over a period of many years..who went to the library at cambridge every day for 10+ years...as each day a page is turned in ''THE BOOK OF PHERRLT''..which is supposed to be an ancient writing by some of the very last celtic priests...who were druidic celts..turned christian to avoid being culled by the romans.
I hope this helps........dw

[technomage]

AN interesting book is one called URIELS MACHINE

Mythological twaddle, based not in scholarship but in the Freemason "history myth."

''the 21 lessons of merlin''

Not just twaddle, but dangerous rubbish: this book actually recommends taking mistletoe internally.

[Hail Mary]

Anyone familiar with Druidic thought ??

NOBODY has been familiar with Druidic thought for about 2000 years. We really have no idea whatsoever what the Druids actually thought. We have a description of what they did from their enemies (the Romans) but that's about it.

(Is it okay for me to post in this forum? If not, I apologize in advance and throw myself on the mercy of the court.)
Jerry

[technomage]

NOBODY has been familiar with Druidic thought for about 2000 years. We really have no idea whatsoever what the Druids actually thought. We have a description of what they did from their enemies (the Romans) but that's about it.

(Is it okay for me to post in this forum? If not, I apologize in advance and throw myself on the mercy of the court.)
Jerry
Not only is it OK, but you're more than welcome. :smile:

[MR SQUIGGLE]

Mythological twaddle, based not in scholarship but in the Freemason "history myth."



Not just twaddle, but dangerous rubbish: this book actually recommends taking mistletoe internally.


Fair comment on both counts!

I was aware of the masonic link theory with druidic histories...but i have never really delved deep enough to refute this theory.

as for the other book......I'd be suss on ANY of the concoctions listed....it was wormwood that drove salvador dali mad....taken as an absinthe blend.
......some good bedtime stories in it for the kiddies though!

My personal interest in the druids is my welsh ancestry....which is why I came to see what you guys could impart to me!

If you have any credible books that you can recomend....please do so!

Off topic a bit; have you read the series of druid FICTION novels by Irish author caiseal mor.?
These are very good novels based on history of the celts,druids and romans .......(he is a professor or something of celtic history)...
''Circle and the cross'' was the first one...cant remember offhand the names of other 2 ...prettey gory stuff at times....worth a read if you have the spare time.

[Hail Mary]

Not only is it OK, but you're more than welcome. :smile:

Hey COM, thanks for your hospitality. (Pearls to you!)

BTW: I agreed with your above post, I really wish we DID know what the Druids actually thought. But I don't see how its possible to even begin to understand that yet. All we can do is speculate.

It would definitely be cool if we discover that the Druids did 'write' something about themselves, but it was just in a code that we have yet to crack. But even then, it would be like trying to determine what the ancient Egyptians 'thought' from reading the Book of the Dead. We can read the words, and understand them, but its still very difficult to put yourself into the mind of ancient thought. Even from Caesar's Commentaries its impossible to understand what he really thought.

[technomage]

Fair comment on both counts!

I was aware of the masonic link theory with druidic histories...but i have never really delved deep enough to refute this theory.

It's a tricky area, I'll agree--the big problem is that there is so much documentation on the "ancient freemasons" that it can be difficult to dig through and find real history. And ... well, there's also the problem that the Druids didn't write stuff down.

as for the other book......I'd be suss on ANY of the concoctions listed....it was wormwood that drove salvador dali mad....taken as an absinthe blend.
......some good bedtime stories in it for the kiddies though!

Eh, my big problem with Monroe (besides the concoctions) was the misogyny. I haven't read the second book, but the first one showed a bad attitude about women in general. Well, that and the fact that what he presents as "history" is nothing of the sort.

My personal interest in the druids is my welsh ancestry....which is why I came to see what you guys could impart to me!

Hey, cool! I also have some Welsh ancestry. :smile:

If you have any credible books that you can recomend....please do so!

I'd start off with John Davies' "The Isles" and "History of Wales." He tends to indulge far less in speculation while still making a great read--a bit dry, but fun if you're a history nut.

Off topic a bit; have you read the series of druid FICTION novels by Irish author caiseal mor.?

I haven't, but after reading your recommendation, I'll certainly give it a shot. :smile:

[joshuadrox]

I've been away for a bit .. glad to see my post getting some attention.

Thanks 'Cup of Mystery' for the info.

Let me restate my initial post.

My real interest is in knowing what is up with the idea of splitting the year into two halves, and what is it with the association of the number 21 with 'awakening' ??

If that covers druidic thought, fine ... if it is really something else, fine.

I just want to know .. because whoever came up with the idea, it is real to me and I have real interest involved.

Thanks to all ... but please stay on the subject. You can always open your own post if you want to digress.

Thanks again for the input.

[joshuadrox]

ApologiaPhoenix -

I would appreciate it if you would move this post back out of the Wiccan thread.

I'm not sure where it belongs.

It is about true mysticism .. do you have a category for that?

I have been away for a bit, so I have not been around to regulate this post and keep the replies relevant.

Thanks!

[technomage]

My real interest is in knowing what is up with the idea of splitting the year into two halves,

The Insular Celts are said to ahve done this, but we don't know why or what significance it had to them. Some modern Neopagans also do so, but the differences are broad enough to make a blanket statement impossible. I can give you the Wiccan significance of the "Dark Year/Light Year" division, but it may not be at all similar to the Neopagan Druids.

and what is it with the association of the number 21 with 'awakening' ??

That's more from numerology than anything--the number 21 is related to the Major Arcana "The World" in most Tarot decks. The World indicates spiritual awakening among other possible meanings.

[joshuadrox]

The Insular Celts are said to ahve done this, but we don't know why or what significance it had to them. Some modern Neopagans also do so, but the differences are broad enough to make a blanket statement impossible. I can give you the Wiccan significance of the "Dark Year/Light Year" division, but it may not be at all similar to the Neopagan Druids.

That's more from numerology than anything--the number 21 is related to the Major Arcana "The World" in most Tarot decks. The World indicates spiritual awakening among other possible meanings.

Thanks for the info!

The way I see it, the two actually go together. There is a night and there is a day. What is inherent to the discussion and extremely relevant is the transition from one to the other. Thus May 1st and November 1st are key dates.

Why? There is a point shared at both Dawn and Dusk, when light and dark are equal and there are no shadows. In photography, this time is called 'magic hour' ... because it is an ideal time for taking pictures of light sources. Of course, it is also romantic, etc ...

Ya, ya .... the 'twilight zone' can be a strange place if one does not know what the heck is going on.

Given an association of 21 with Awakening, it also has a direct association with May 1st and the Dawn of the Light Half of the year.

Incidentally, February 1st is the middle of the night. Interestingly, February is when lunar based calendars generally begin their year.

In essence, this is about much more than Pagan or Celtic or any other specific belief.

This is about what is universal to people all over the world.

[technomage]

This is about what is universal to people all over the world.


Very interesting. The only quibble I'd make is to the sentence I quoted above. Remember, any form of mystical insight that can be expressed in words and numbers is not the actual "insight," but is the map t that insight. The map is not the terrain. :wink:

[joshuadrox]

So much of the world (21?) is seen in a dualistic sense ... good & evil, life & death, black & white, etc..

What is often overlooked is the idea of 'non-duality' ... which (moderators take note) in itself has nothing to do with Paganism or Wiccan or Celtic.

As far as I know, Hinduism is the only world religion that embraces the concept. Yet they don't truely grasp it, either.

Ok, back to the point ...

Non-duality goes hand-in-hand with the transition point of night and day .. when light and dark are equal and there are no shadows ... perfect balance.

:smile:

Non-duality does not mean that things do not oppose one another. Non-duality has everything to do with the underlying unity of Creation.

Things may naturally oppose one another, but they are not in opposition as such. Actually, they are in Communion. Synergy is present.

The even & uniform light of non-duality is essential for resolving issues and not casting shadows on situations. It is the basis of discernment.

As I understand it, becoming consciously aware of the state of non-duality is what 'nirvana' is all about. Kinda funny, because it has absolutely nothing to do with becoming detached to anything ... but that is what the popular notion is.

Ok, enough for now.

Hopefully someone gets what I'm saying.

[joshuadrox]

Very interesting. The only quibble I'd make is to the sentence I quoted above. Remember, any form of mystical insight that can be expressed in words and numbers is not the actual "insight," but is the map t that insight. The map is not the terrain. :wink:

Gotcha ... that is definitely good to keep in mind!

[joshuadrox]

Non-duality does not mean that things do not oppose one another. Non-duality has everything to do with the underlying unity of Creation.

Things may naturally oppose one another, but they are not in opposition as such. Actually, they are in Communion. Synergy is present.

I cannot stress the importance of this enough.

It is downright essential for Life itself for things to oppose one another.

It is natural for things to oppose one another .... BUT they should NOT be in opposition as such.

Things do what they have to do to maintain individual integrity & identity.

The larger picture here that gets into focus is Divine Providence and the synergy therein.

Synergy is integrated energy .. it is as stable as it gets.

It is an environment in which Divine Providence flourishes.

Ok, I gotta go ... some mundane stuff to tend to :wink:

[joshuadrox]

Yikes, my train-of-thought is not quite ready to stop ... hehehe :lol:

The point, the point, the point is .... one does not exist without the other.

Divine Providence is not present without synergy, which is not present without non-duality, which is not present without perfect balance, which only occurs twice a day for a single momentary instant ....

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I hope to God someone caught the @#%@#% thing!

:lol:

[joshuadrox]

Ah, finally...

Now I can rest.

Been working non-stop for 11 years on that .. back when I was 21.

Nailed it that time.

BIG :smile:

[OckhamsRazor]

I would say that a good estimation of the beliefs of Druids would be to simply study the overall religious ideas of the Celts and you'll get a pretty good idea. The Druids were the priest class of the pre-Christian Celts.

It seems to me that the Celts didn't like the Druids much. They often were frightened of them. Druids were seen as having the ability to do horrible things to people. The Celt's religion was composed of numerous gods and spirits. Celts spent a good deal of time trying to protect themselves from evil or dark spirits. They had an extensive series of traditions for appeasing these spirits. They lived in constant fear of them. Christianity presented a single God of love and who was supreme and therefore more powerful than dark spirits. Much of the tradition of fear with the Celts was eliminated by Christianity. This probably is why Christianity was successful with the Celts. No one likes living with a gun to their heads. The fear of these spirits was probably just like that.

[tmancour]

It seems to me that the Celts didn't like the Druids much. They often were frightened of them.

What are you basing your information upon? It seems to me that the Celts had the same opinion about the Druids that we do about our professional classes, doctor/lawyer/priesthood. Due to the decentralized nature of the Celtic society, individual tribes (<i>tuatha</i>) each had a Druid or three around to minister to them and to make magickal war on the tribal enemies. Therefore MY Druid is great, but YOUR Druid is spooky and gives me the creeps.



[font=Arial][size=3][color=blue]
Druids were seen as having the ability to do horrible things to people.

. . . and heal them, officiate over their weddings, birthings and funerals, keep track of their legal obligations, teach their kids, entertain at parties, render wise counsel, and do horrible things to their enemies.


[font=Arial][size=3][color=blue]
The Celt's religion was composed of numerous gods and spirits. Celts spent a good deal of time trying to protect themselves from evil or dark spirits. They had an extensive series of traditions for appeasing these spirits. They lived in constant fear of them.


So did ALL peoples of the "Dark Ages". Look at early Christian prayers, wherein the focus of the prayer was to protect. It's a fundamental aspect of all reglious thought. Christians just did it with scripture and foreign ritual in a foreign language, is all.

[font=Arial][size=3][color=blue]
Christianity presented a single God of love and who was supreme and therefore more powerful than dark spirits. Much of the tradition of fear with the Celts was eliminated by Christianity.

LOL! You're kidding, right? Been to Ireland recently? Christianity imported whole new realms of fear previously undrempt of by the Celts. Original Sin? Damnation? Demonization of sexuality and cultural imprisonment of women? There is a fundamental darkness that runs through the Celtic psyche, and all Christianity did was tap into it to gain converts and secular power. When you wave books around illiterate people, and claim to have all the answers, and then threaten them with ETERNAL DAMNATION if they do not comply, it kind of takes the sheen off of the whole "God of love" thing.


[font=Arial][size=3][color=blue]
This probably is why Christianity was successful with the Celts. No one likes living with a gun to their heads. The fear of these spirits was probably just like that.

Christianity replaced the .22 pistol of "evil spirits" with the double-barreled shotgun of Satan and Jehovah. Christianity's success with the Celts had far less to do with the inherent appeal of the religion and far more to do with the fact that Celtic society had been dealt a series of strong blows, and used Christianity to breath some new intellectual life into the culture. Before Christianity, women had legal rights and a great deal of freedom. After Christianity they had no rights and were chattle of their fathers and husbands. The success of the Christian "monotheism" can be clearly seen in how powerful the cults of Mary and Brigit were in the Celtic countries -- two pure Goddess figures. And St. Anne (Danu) and a number of others.

Did the Celts "fear" natural spirits? Only to the extent that pissing them off brought misfortune into their lives. The pre-Christian Celtic religion, administered by the Druids, respected these nature-spirits for what they were, powerful <i>Genius loci</i> that had to be honored and respected (and occasionally bribed) in order to gain their favor. It was a minor part of the religion, but one that Christian missionaries shrewedly siezed upon as a wedge into the culture. Christianity's real success among the Celts in opposition to Druidism was the fact that, being a text-based religion, any idiot who could learn how to read could become a monk or priest, whereas Druidism required a lifetime of dilligent study. The advantages of a literate culture were superior to those of a culture that discouraged sacred writings, and the adaptation was made for as much economic and social reasons.

I'd be interested where you got your sources.

Arion

[shunyadragon]

Anyone familiar with Druidic thought ??

In particular, I'm interested in their splitting the year into two halves, a light & a dark .. like night & day.

Day begins on May 1st, and Night on November 1st.

I also remember something about the number 21 and its association to an 'awakening'.

Thanks for the input.


The solar calendar was important to Druids, the Winter Solstice was an important festival as the middle of darkness of winter, and the beginning of the lengthing of the day, and hope of lightness.

Human sacrifice is not well documented among the Druids, but in fact likely occured just as in the Bible. Bodies found that represent possible ritual killings have not been determined as to whether these were sacrificial or punishment for crimes