The church will not recognize the two witnesses,... why?

[Okieshowedem]

No where do you read that a great revival will break out and sweep across the land.
The message that the two wittness bring will not be accepted by the religions of this deceived world. Rev.12:9
The Scriptures makes it very clear what the two witnesses will be teaching.
These two witnesses were written about long before the world ever heard of the church.
So do you know why the world will not know when their time comes?
Think about this..... the very Bible that all the preacher boys use to preach from, has all the information written in it to lead you to Salvation, yet these preachers can't tell you when these two wittness will be here to warn the world of the its impending doom.
Just as the Messiah gave the instruction in Matt.24 to warn of the deception of the end of this earth age.
So the prophets wrote about it long before Yahshua repeated them in Matt. 24.
The Scriptures are in total unity from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21.
If you believe any doctriene that is not found in the first five books of your Bible, you my friend have been deceived my the most subtle and crafty of all creatures Satan the Devil.

Okieshowedem

[Hegemon]

If you believe any doctriene that is not found in the first five books of your Bible, you my friend have been deceived my the most subtle and crafty of all creatures Satan the Devil.

Let's see, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. I can't find that in the first 5 books of the Bible...

You're not writing these innane posts from the psych ward are you?

[KarmaGhost]

No where do you read that a great revival will break out and sweep across the land.
The message that the two wittness bring will not be accepted by the religions of this deceived world. Rev.12:9
The Scriptures makes it very clear what the two witnesses will be teaching.
These two witnesses were written about long before the world ever heard of the church.
So do you know why the world will not know when their time comes?
Think about this..... the very Bible that all the preacher boys use to preach from, has all the information written in it to lead you to Salvation, yet these preachers can't tell you when these two wittness will be here to warn the world of the its impending doom.
Just as the Messiah gave the instruction in Matt.24 to warn of the deception of the end of this earth age.
So the prophets wrote about it long before Yahshua repeated them in Matt. 24.
The Scriptures are in total unity from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21.
If you believe any doctriene that is not found in the first five books of your Bible, you my friend have been deceived my the most subtle and crafty of all creatures Satan the Devil.

Okieshowedem

Um, what exacty are you trying to say?

[Okieshowedem]

Hegemon

Then you must have overlooked Mosheh instuction about the One that would be raise up amoung the Nation Israyl.


Okieshowedem

[Hegemon]

Hegemon

Then you must have overlooked Mosheh instuction about the One that would be raise up amoung the Nation Israyl.


Okieshowedem

You're a complete nutcase. Anyone who invents their own personal spellings for biblical nouns usually is.

[James Peter]

You're a complete nutcase. Anyone who invents their own personal spellings for biblical nouns usually is.

Indeed.

It you went for Yishra'el I could see where you were coming from but Israyl is just....random.

[Timothy Leary]

Indeed.

It you went for Yishra'el I could see where you were coming from but Israyl is just....random.

Yisra'el

It's not a shin, it's a sin.

:tongue:

[Weboh2]

No where do you read that a great revival will break out and sweep across the land.
The message that the two wittness bring will not be accepted by the religions of this deceived world. Rev.12:9
The Scriptures makes it very clear what the two witnesses will be teaching.
These two witnesses were written about long before the world ever heard of the church.
So do you know why the world will not know when their time comes?
Think about this..... the very Bible that all the preacher boys use to preach from, has all the information written in it to lead you to Salvation, yet these preachers can't tell you when these two wittness will be here to warn the world of the its impending doom.
Just as the Messiah gave the instruction in Matt.24 to warn of the deception of the end of this earth age.
So the prophets wrote about it long before Yahshua repeated them in Matt. 24.
The Scriptures are in total unity from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21.
If you believe any doctriene that is not found in the first five books of your Bible, you my friend have been deceived my the most subtle and crafty of all creatures Satan the Devil.

Okieshowedem
If you believe "beat their 'swords' into plowshares" is a symbolic reference, it is you who is being deceived.

[shunyadragon]

No where do you read that a great revival will break out and sweep across the land.
The message that the two wittness bring will not be accepted by the religions of this deceived world. Rev.12:9
The Scriptures makes it very clear what the two witnesses will be teaching.
These two witnesses were written about long before the world ever heard of the church.
So do you know why the world will not know when their time comes?
Think about this..... the very Bible that all the preacher boys use to preach from, has all the information written in it to lead you to Salvation, yet these preachers can't tell you when these two wittness will be here to warn the world of the its impending doom.
Just as the Messiah gave the instruction in Matt.24 to warn of the deception of the end of this earth age.
So the prophets wrote about it long before Yahshua repeated them in Matt. 24.
The Scriptures are in total unity from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21.
If you believe any doctriene that is not found in the first five books of your Bible, you my friend have been deceived my the most subtle and crafty of all creatures Satan the Devil.

Okieshowedem

I believe the two witnesses were the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who indeed warned of the impending doom and end of the old world, and the beginning of the new.

[KarmaGhost]

I believe the two witnesses were the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who indeed warned of the impending doom and end of the old world, and the beginning of the new.

Not to mention the end of Christian orthodoxy, which is why they're not the two witnesses. The two witness--as in those who see and testify, like a court--would bear out the truth of Christ. Does Ba'hai do that? Whoops, guess not. Truth is transiet and the active, personal God is just a creator force we might call the Source.

[shunyadragon]

Not to mention the end of Christian orthodoxy, which is why they're not the two witnesses. The two witness--as in those who see and testify, like a court--would bear out the truth of Christ. Does Ba'hai do that? Whoops, guess not. Truth is transiet and the active, personal God is just a creator force we might call the Source.

Well, ah . . . the beginning of Christianity was the end of Jewish orthodoxy, and most Jews denied Christ because of their own orthodoxy. The Bab and Baha'u'llah bore witness to the reality of Christ as the messiah and spiritual Son of God, bu like the Jews the church is destined t reject the two witnesses.

[Lili]

Well, ah . . . the beginning of Christianity was the end of Jewish orthodoxy, and most Jews denied Christ because of their own orthodoxy. The Bab and Baha'u'llah bore witness to the reality of Christ as the messiah and spiritual Son of God, bu like the Jews the church is destined t reject the two witnesses.Didn't Baha'ullah actually claim to be the return of Christ? If he did, that's interesting because Baha'ullah said that it was a sin to drink alcohol while Christ not only drank it, he turned water into wine. Also, Christ taught that God is personal while Baha'ullah taught that God is impersonal and unknowable. If Christ's teachings are true, (and I believe they are) then Baha'ullah's teachings were wrong since they contradict those of Christ and therefore, he was a false prophet.

[KarmaGhost]

Well, ah . . . the beginning of Christianity was the end of Jewish orthodoxy, and most Jews denied Christ because of their own orthodoxy. The Bab and Baha'u'llah bore witness to the reality of Christ as the messiah and spiritual Son of God, bu like the Jews the church is destined t reject the two witnesses.

The beginning of Christian orthodoxy was the realization of Jewish orthodoxy. Prior to the 300's, God was considered multi-personal. Jesus did not say "stop following the law!" On the contrary, he said that the law was not the sum whole of our relationship to God. He iterated the law in two points "Love the Lord Your God"--which would imply obeying him--and "Love your neighbor as yourself." These two commandments of Jesus are not foreign to Jewish thought. Rather, he fulfilled the Law, as no one else could. Then he was killed. This is Jewish sacrifice. I am pained when I hear fellow Christians being ignorant of the fact that they are Jewish.

[Okieshowedem]

The Christian religion has had control of this world for over 1900 years look what a mess it has made!


O

[shunyadragon]

Didn't Baha'ullah actually claim to be the return of Christ? If he did, that's interesting because Baha'ullah said that it was a sin to drink alcohol while Christ not only drank it, he turned water into wine. Also, Christ taught that God is personal while Baha'ullah taught that God is impersonal and unknowable. If Christ's teachings are true, (and I believe they are) then Baha'ullah's teachings were wrong since they contradict those of Christ and therefore, he was a false prophet.

Spiritual laws change from age to age as in the NT, but some truths do remain eternal. Jesus changed the law on divorce, and the laws concerning sacrafice, and apparently some belief the Sabbith changed. The Koran changed the law concening the consumption of alcohol, and Baha'u'llah upheld that change.

You are taking only part of Baha'u'llah's teaching on the nature of God, which is not uncommon for Christians to do concerning the beliefs of other faiths. The teaching of Baha'u'llah teach that God may be known through revelation (Baha'i Faith is indeed a theistic religion where God reveals God's message personally through the messiah, but his ultimate nature is unknowable and udefinable from the human perspective. This not out of line from many quotes in the OT and NT concerning the nature of God and his relationship with humanity.

[shunyadragon]

The beginning of Christian orthodoxy was the realization of Jewish orthodoxy. Prior to the 300's, God was considered multi-personal. Jesus did not say "stop following the law!" On the contrary, he said that the law was not the sum whole of our relationship to God. He iterated the law in two points "Love the Lord Your God"--which would imply obeying him--and "Love your neighbor as yourself." These two commandments of Jesus are not foreign to Jewish thought. Rather, he fulfilled the Law, as no one else could. Then he was killed. This is Jewish sacrifice. I am pained when I hear fellow Christians being ignorant of the fact that they are Jewish.

The Baha'i Faith embraces the original Jewish Orthodoxy in many ways, and yes he fulfilled the law and prophesy, but so did the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I believe that the dominant Christian Orthodoxy has endorsed Roman Doctrines and created a schism between Jewish and Christianity that has not healed.

[Lili]

Spiritual laws change from age to age as in the NT, but some truths do remain eternal. Jesus changed the law on divorce, and the laws concerning sacrafice, and apparently some belief the Sabbith changed. The Koran changed the law concening the consumption of alcohol, and Baha'u'llah upheld that change.
I agree that some laws are for a specific time and/or specific culture, while others are universal. However, those laws that you mentioned that were changed were merely ceremonial laws. They were not moral laws. In addition, Jesus didn't change the law on divorce, God always hated and forbid divorce. Jesus said that Moses gave that law because of the hardness of the Israelites' hearts. Similarly, Moses allowed Polygamy but God never allowed it.

You are taking only part of Baha'u'llah's teaching on the nature of God, which is not uncommon for Christians to do concerning the beliefs of other faiths. My misunderstanding has nothing to do with me being a Christian. I actually had that same misconception when I was a non-Christian. I try to have a good understanding of other faiths and I dislike when certain apologists criticize a religion without even attempting to understand it. Sometimes, like all humans, I fail.

The teaching of Baha'u'llah teach that God may be known through revelation (Baha'i Faith is indeed a theistic religion where God reveals God's message personally through the messiah, but his ultimate nature is unknowable and udefinable from the human perspective. This not out of line from many quotes in the OT and NT concerning the nature of God and his relationship with humanity.Yes, but the difference is that there is continuity between Old Testament Judaism and Christianity. While the Hebrews did not believe in a trinity, there is no verse in the OT that says that God is not triune, and there are verses in the OT that hint at the trinity (for example, Proverbs 8:22-30). On the other hand, the 9 manifestations of the Baha'i faith all contradict each other, not just about moral laws, but about the nature of God. For example, the Buddha denied the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, all good creator, but that is the nature of the God of Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and the Baha'i faith. Islam teaches that God is not a trinity, which contradicts Christianity, and it teaches that Jesus was not crucified, which not only contradicts a very important doctrine of Christianity, it also contradicts historical fact. Furthermore, Baha'ullah claimed to be the return of Christ, yet some of his teachings contradict those of Christ, especially the Deity and Resurrection of Christ. Because of the law of non contradiction, Baha'ullah cannot be the return of Christ.

[shunyadragon]

I agree that some laws are for a specific time and/or specific culture, while others are universal. However, those laws that you mentioned that were changed were merely ceremonial laws. They were not moral laws. In addition, Jesus didn't change the law on divorce, God always hated and forbid divorce. Jesus said that Moses gave that law because of the hardness of the Israelites' hearts. Similarly, Moses allowed Polygamy but God never allowed it.

Not so, the law of divorce was changed and changed back regardless of the reason for changing the law. Can you site a specific reference that God always hated and prohibited it. There is no clear evidence that ceremonial laws were changed.

I disgree here, Moses would never allow something that God would not. Moses did not write the laws himself, he essentially brought the laws to the Hebrew people given him by God.



Misconceptions and misunderstandings are common to believers of all faiths, and non-believers, but nontheless, these misconceptions and misunderstandings are more prevalent among those that wish to justify the exclusiveness of their own belief, ie Christians.

[quote] Yes, but the difference is that there is continuity between Old Testament Judaism and Christianity. While the Hebrews did not believe in a trinity, there is no verse in the OT that says that God is not triune, and there are verses in the OT that hint at the trinity (for example, Proverbs 8:22-30).

This continuity is vague at best, and Proverbs 8:22-30 is on thin ice to justify a literal trinity. Herbrews can easily refute the trinity based on the OT, but on the reverse Christian justification of vague references of the trinity based on the OT is not clear enough to stand alone.

On the other hand, the 9 manifestations of the Baha'i faith all contradict each other, not just about moral laws, but about the nature of God. For example, the Buddha denied the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, all good creator, but that is the nature of the God of Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and the Baha'i faith. Islam teaches that God is not a trinity, which contradicts Christianity, and it teaches that Jesus was not crucified, which not only contradicts a very important doctrine of Christianity, it also contradicts historical fact. Furthermore, Baha'ullah claimed to be the return of Christ, yet some of his teachings contradict those of Christ, especially the Deity and Resurrection of Christ. Because of the law of non contradiction, Baha'ullah cannot be the return of Christ.

The law of non-contradiction would only apply if it could be justified that any single belief represented absolutely God's relationship with humanity. Unfortuntely if this absolute standard is to upheld, the contradictions of doctrine or belief exists all through the many divisions of Christianity, and all other religions as well. If it is assumed that religions reflect the human view of God in a relative sense, than the contraditions exist in the minds of humans and not the nature of God and revelation.

This view from the cultural overburden of Christianity is the reason the 'church will not recognize the two witnesses'. Judism in turn for the most part rejected Christ on a similar basis as Christianity rejects the Baha'i Faith.

The differences between the different religions can be easily explained as each religion is the human cultural view of God and revelation and not the true nature of God and this relationship. Your reference to the nature of Buddha and what are considered the doctrines of Buddhism reflects a similar culturall burdened view of an ancient religion. The are in reality the view of God and revelation from different perspective. Buddhism and Taoism does believe in a 'Source' from which all things come froma nd return to, but does not share the extremely anthropomorphic view of the ancient Judeo/Christian theistic beliefs.

The Baha'i Faith does not completely regect the trinity, but believes it is a manifesrtaion of the spiritual relationship between humanity and God found in all religions. The Baha'i Faith believes in a more universal world embracing revelation through manifestations of God through all history of humanity. If one believes in the universality of revelation to ALL humanity, the narrow view of Judism, Christianity and Islam becomes very problematic leaving most of the world in history in the dark without this most essential saving revelation from God.