Jairus' daughter, the young man of Nain and Lazarus.

[sylvius]

646 Christ's Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus' daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus' power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ's Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus' Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is "the man of heaven".


In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space.

here I do agree.

How about you, TWebbers?
I don't think it fits with the conviction that Jesus went to heaven with body and all, without leaving any physical remnants on earth.


At some particular moment they would die again

here I don't agree.

first of course it is not mentioned in NT.

but that's not my point.

Jaïrus daughter
-- she is the eternal virgin.

the young man of Naïn,
young man, Greek "neaniskos" -- he is the one to sit in the grave and to tell the women and the disciples; " you're looking wrong-- he is not here -- don't search for the living among the dead "
-- which is an eternal message -- eternal Gospel.

Lazarus (Greek form of Hebrew Eliezer, Abraham's servant, eliezer with gematria 318, like the 318 well trained with which Abraham defeated the four kings in favor of the five) --
he is the disciple whom Jesus loved; and of whom he said:

What if I want him to remain until I come?

he is still alive.

[mossrose]

So, where are these people who are still alive after being resurrected?

I haven't seen them around proclaiming Jesus Christ. Which I am sure they would be doing if they were still alive, 2000 years later.

What press they would get! And the whole world would believe in Jesus!

You are out to lunch on this one. Including the part about Jesus leaving remains here on earth. And also about Lazarus being the disciple whom Jesus loved.

[Shadow Phoenix]

You are out to lunch on this one.

This is different from usual in what way?

[mossrose]

None. Just figured I would reiterate.

:smug:

[sylvius]

So, where are these people who are still alive after being resurrected?

i see them here, there and everywhere.

I haven't seen them around proclaiming Jesus Christ. Which I am sure they would be doing if they were still alive, 2000 years later.

they're probably not members of your denomination.

What press they would get!

the press is not interested

And the whole world would believe in Jesus!

nope

You are out to lunch on this one.

how do you explain then John 21:22?
Was Jesus joking?


Including the part about Jesus leaving remains here on earth.

what about his blood that has been shed for (many)?

what about his sweat?

his hair and nails that have been cut?

skinchips (i don't know the right word) that he has lost?

his milk-teeth?

did it all fly with him up to heaven?


And also about Lazarus being the disciple whom Jesus loved.

yes he was



Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.

[sylvius]

This is different from usual in what way?

note that because of the resurrection of Lazarus they killed Jesus.

they : all mad one-dimensionales walking around on earth.



And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"
The dead man came out, tied hand and foot with burial bands, and his face was wrapped in a cloth. So Jesus said to them, "Untie him and let him go." Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary and seen what he had done began to believe in him. But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, "What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs. If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come 10 and take away both our land and our nation." But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing, nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish."
He did not say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also to gather into one the dispersed children of God. So from that day on they planned to kill him.

[drmmjr]

You have mentioned 3 people who were raised from the dead in the New Testament - Jairus' daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. But there were two more people. One was Dorcas (Tabitha) from Acts 9: 36-41, and the other was Eutychus from Acts 20: 9-10. Now are these two additional people still walking the earth? These 5 people who were raised from the dead were raised differently than Jesus was. They were simply brought back to life, much like people are today with defibulators. They had only been dead a short amount of time. They re-recieved the breath of life, like before their deaths, they would still be required to breath life in to remain alive.

Jesus on the other hand had been dead for several days. Which shows that he was most definitely dead. He didn't re-recieve the breath of life, he was resurrected to life eternal by the spirit of God.

[sylvius]

They were simply brought back to life, much like people are today with defibulators. They had only been dead a short amount of time. They re-recieved the breath of life, like before their deaths, they would still be required to breath life in to remain alive.

Jesus on the other hand had been dead for several days. Which shows that he was most definitely dead. He didn't re-recieve the breath of life, he was resurrected to life eternal by the spirit of God.

John 11:39,
Jesus says, Take away the stone. Martha, the sister of the dead, says to him, Lord, he stinks already, for he is four days there.

[drmmjr]

OK, so in my haste, I forgot about Lazarus being dead for several days. The thing is that he wasn't raised from the dead in the same manner as Jesus was. He wasn't raised to immortality.

[sylvius]

OK, so in my haste, I forgot about Lazarus being dead for several days. The thing is that he wasn't raised from the dead in the same manner as Jesus was. He wasn't raised to immortality.


what then would have been meant with John 3:3
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

[apostoli]

Hello sylvius,

John 21:22 What if I want him to remain until I come? he is still alive.Ignoring whom Jesus is talking about for now, your assumption "he is still alive" is disproved in the next verse. "then went this saying abroad amoung the brethren, that that disciple would not die." A.John is saying they misunderstood! And continues, that the correct understanding is that Jesus has the power to make it so "if I will [it]...what is to you?" Jesus' words are responding to A.Peter regarding A.Peter's death before the return of Jesus (vs19).

[sylvius]

Hello sylvius,

Ignoring whom Jesus is talking about for now, your assumption "he is still alive" is disproved in the next verse. "then went this saying abroad amoung the brethren, that that disciple would not die." A.John is saying they misunderstood! And continues, that the correct understanding is that Jesus has the power to make it so "if I will [it]...what is to you?" Jesus' words are responding to A.Peter regarding A.Peter's death before the return of Jesus (vs19).

did Jesus (or John) then delude us with the false hope that he would return within a man's lifetime?

[apostoli]

Hello sylvius,

did Jesus (or John) then delude us with the false hope that he would return within a man's lifetime?I'm interested where in scripture you get that idea. As I remember it "apart from the Father, noone knows the day or the hour".

[sylvius]

Hello sylvius,

I'm interested where in scripture you get that idea. As I remember it "apart from the Father, noone knows the day or the hour".

so this beloved disciple indeed still might be alive...

[apostoli]

so this beloved disciple indeed still might be alive...Within the remembrance of God in regard to the future resurrection, yes. But actually, as of here and now, no.

[sylvius]

Within the remembrance of God in regard to the future resurrection, yes. But actually, as of here and now, no.


why then:

What if I want him to remain until I come?

he is leaving the possibilty open,

but maybe not for you.

What concern is it of yours?

[apostoli]

he is leaving the possibilty open, But not conclusively. It is relative to Peter's death.
but maybe not for you.Or you! It is for God to judge.

[sylvius]

But not conclusively. It is relative to Peter's death.


where you got that idea from?

it is not in the text.

What if I want him to remain until I come?

since Jesus did not come yet the saying leaves the possibilty open that the beloved disciple is still alive.

or you must say: Jesus was wrong in expecting to come back within a man's lifetime?

Or you! -- maybe you are the beloved disciple. Why not?

[apostoli]

he is leaving the possibilty open,But not conclusively. It is relative to Peter's death.where you got that idea from? it is not in the text.Relative to Peter's death=John 21:18-23. The other=John 21:23 Though the brethren misunderstood Jesus (as you do) "Yet Jesus did not say unto him, he shall not die"

since Jesus did not come yet the saying leaves the possibilty open that the beloved disciple is still alive.]All followers of Christ are supposed to be dead in the flesh but alive in Christ.

[QUOTE=sylvius]or you must say: Jesus was wrong in expecting to come back within a man's lifetime? Where does Jesus say he will return in a man's lifetime?

maybe you are the beloved disciple. Why not?Hmm! I don't remember writing the gospel of John (see: John 21:24)

[sylvius]

Relative to Peter's death=John 21:18-23.
it makes only clear that the passage is written after Peter's death.


The other=John 21:23 Though the brethren misunderstood Jesus (as you do) "Yet Jesus did not say unto him, he shall not die"
it shows how it has to be understood; viz. in the sense of John 11:25-26
I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.



Where does Jesus say he will return in a man's lifetime? in this passage; and also in f.e., Mark 9:1

Hmm! I don't remember writing the gospel of John (see: John 21:24)

no I meant John writing about you.

The called out of the grave Lazarus being the beloved disciple.

[apostoli]

Relative to Peter's death=John 21:18-23.it makes only clear that the passage is written after Peter's death.Yep! A.John wrote the account some years after A.Peter's death. But in the account Jesus is addressing Peter, so at the time related to us, Peter was still alive.

The other=John 21:23 Though the brethren misunderstood Jesus (as you do) "Yet Jesus did not say unto him, he shall not die"it shows how it has to be understood; viz. in the sense of John 11:25-26
I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.Yep! Those who follow him never die spiritually. Fear them that can kill your body but have no fear for they cannot kill your soul. Also see Matthew 16:25-26 "whosoever will save his life shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life for my sake will find it. For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul""

Where does Jesus say he will return in a man's lifetime?in this passage; and also in f.e., Mark 9:1See Mark 9:1-8. cp Luke:9-27-36, Matthew 16:28-17:1-8. Jesus words in Mark 9:1 are filfilled in the following verses. Have you another text to support your ideas?

Hmm! I don't remember writing the gospel of John (see: John 21:24) no I meant John writing about you. The called out of the grave Lazarus being the beloved disciple.Guess you don't believe A.John wrote the gospel. John 20:24 clearly identifies "the disciple whom Jesus loved" as the writer of the gospel.

[sylvius]

Yep! A.John wrote the account some years after A.Peter's death. But in the account Jesus is addressing Peter, so at the time related to us, Peter was still alive.
the story is made up; it is not an historical, like journalistic, account.
(proof of this the number 153, which hints at the "tov", good, in Genesis 1:12)

Yep! Those who follow him never die spiritually. Fear them that can kill your body but have no fear for they cannot kill your soul. Also see Matthew 16:25-26 "whosoever will save his life shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life for my sake will find it. For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul""
so also Lazarus' coming out of the grave has to be understood spiritual.

See Mark 9:1-8. cp Luke:9-27-36, Matthew 16:28-17:1-8. Jesus words in Mark 9:1 are filfilled in the following verses. Have you another text to support your ideas?
what you think "after six days" (Mark 9:2) might be hinting at?
I say at scripture., Genesis 1:31-2:1, not at an historical event.

Guess you don't believe A.John wrote the gospel. John 20:24 clearly identifies "the disciple whom Jesus loved" as the writer of the gospel.

you mean John 21:24 , no that's not true; it doesn't say that.

[apostoli]

the story is made up; it is not an historical, like journalistic, account.
(proof of this the number 153, which hints at the "tov", good, in Genesis 1:12)It is a memoir. A.John's recollection of events. Is it not possible that he uses a genre familar to his audience and therefore uses symbolic devices to emphasise an event? In the case of the fishes, the point was that the disciples didn't recognise Jesus until that miricle occurred.

so also Lazarus' coming out of the grave has to be understood spiritual. No. It was physical. He was brought back to life but he was not "changed" as the NT describes those participating in the first resurrection. The atonement sacifice had not occured yet. So Lazarus etc were still under the penalty of death like all mortal beings.

what you think "after six days" (Mark 9:2) might be hinting at? I say at scripture., Genesis 1:31-2:1, not at an historical event.Well, the six days could allude to Moses’ ascent of Sinai with Joshua in Exodus 24. Moses does figure in the vision the apostles beheld. Or it might simply mean six literal days after Jesus asks the apostles "who do you say that I am" (Mark 8:27-30).

you mean John 21:24 , no that's not true; it doesn't say that.Pick a translation. They all say the same thing eg: "Jesus did not say he [the one who the Lord loved] would not die...It is the same disciple who attests what has here been written. It is in fact he who wrote it." (NEB)

So if you understand "the one loved by the Lord" at John 21:20 is Lazarus, then you must be telling us that Lazarus wrote the gospel and not A.John.

[sylvius]

Originally posted by sylvius
you mean John 21:24 , no that's not true; it doesn't say that.


Pick a translation. They all say the same thing eg: "Jesus did not say he [the one who the Lord loved] would not die...It is the same disciple who attests what has here been written. It is in fact he who wrote it." (NEB)

So if you understand "the one loved by the Lord" at John 21:20 is Lazarus, then you must be telling us that Lazarus wrote the gospel and not A.John.

exhlqen oun outoV o logoV eiV touV adelfouV oti o maqhthV ekeinoV ouk apoqnhskei. ouk eipen de autw o ihsouV oti ouk apoqnhskei, all, ean auton qelw menein ewV ercomai [,ti proV se]; outoV estin o maqhthV o marturwn peri toutwn kai o grayaV tauta, kai oidamen oti alhqhV autou h marturia estin.

So the word spread among the brothers that that disciple would not die. But Jesus had not told him that he would not die, just "What if I want him to remain until I come? (What concern is it of yours?)" ; this is the disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true

[apostoli]

Originally posted by sylvius
you mean John 21:24 , no that's not true; it doesn't say that.

exhlqen oun outoV o logoV eiV touV adelfouV oti o maqhthV ekeinoV ouk apoqnhskei. ouk eipen de autw o ihsouV oti ouk apoqnhskei, all, ean auton qelw menein ewV ercomai [,ti proV se]; outoV estin o maqhthV o marturwn peri toutwn kai o grayaV tauta, kai oidamen oti alhqhV autou h marturia estin.

So the word spread among the brothers that that disciple would not die. But Jesus had not told him that he would not die, just "What if I want him to remain until I come? (What concern is it of yours?)" ; this is the disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is trueThere is a difference between translation and interpretation. To save time I'll just refer you to an interlinear

John 21:23
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=john+21%3A23&section=0&it=nas&oq=joh%25201&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=1&ncc=1

John 21:24
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=john+21%3A24&section=0&it=nas&oq=johnj%252021%3A24&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1

[sylvius]

There is a difference between translation and interpretation. To save time I'll just refer you to an interlinear


ο γραψας ταυτα

ho grapsas tauta

he who wrote these things


grafw,v {graf'-o}
1) to write, with reference to the form of the letters 1a) to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material 2) to write, with reference to the contents of the writing 2a) to express in written characters 2b) to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record 2c) used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT) 2d) to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions 3) to fill with writing 4) to draw up in writing, compose


i.e., he knows about the numbers 153 and 666.

of course the writer of the Gospel of John knew it --

but all to know it are "the disciple whom Jesus loved, the one who had reclined upon his chest during the supper".

[apostoli]

Hello sylvius,

ο γραψας ταυτα

ho grapsas tauta

he who wrote these things


grafw,v {graf'-o}
1) to write, with reference to the form of the letters 1a) to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material 2) to write, with reference to the contents of the writing 2a) to express in written characters 2b) to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record 2c) used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT) 2d) to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions 3) to fill with writing 4) to draw up in writing, compose


i.e., he knows about the numbers 153 and 666.

of course the writer of the Gospel of John knew it --

but all to know it are "the disciple whom Jesus loved, the one who had reclined upon his chest during the supper".
My only point was to indicate that historically the book is attributed to John. Though I openly admit that in time there has been debate whether it was written by a prsbyeter named John or the apostle John or whether it was transcribed by vocular transmission from John. However, I'm not aware of any authentification of it being passed to us as a vernecular of the man Lazarus.

[sylvius]

Hello sylvius,



However, I'm not aware of any authentification of it being passed to us as a vernecular of the man Lazarus.

Ho I didn't say that.

[apostoli]

Hello sylvius,

Ho I didn't say that.Possibly I've misunderstood you. In earlier posts you seem to have suggested that the one whom Jesus loved at John 21:20-23 was Lazarus. Whereas, John 21:24 says that the one who is spoken of, is the person who wrote the accounts in the book of John.

[sylvius]

Hello sylvius,

Possibly I've misunderstood you. In earlier posts you seem to have suggested that the one whom Jesus loved at John 21:20-23 was Lazarus. Whereas, John 21:24 says that the one who is spoken of, is the person who wrote the accounts in the book of John.

I mean it's not to be understood as historical;

Lazarus being the one in you, in every person (so also in John) that became ill and died and was called from the grave by Jesus.