Judas a traitor or a savior?

[moose7237]

Hello and Peace be to all,

This post shouldn't be very long but after listening to "judith" by A perfect circle. I began to wonder.

Why is Judas viewed as negatively in Christianity??? I mean he is the one who helped the prophecy succeed in order for your sins to be forgiven(I reject atonement and original sin, but for the sake of argument I will not touch upon it much....yet :)

Whose to say that maybe Judas wanted to be the one who betrayed Jesus just for the very reason to have the sins of christians forgiven. If someone told me this is the person is partly responsible for my eternal salvation, I would praise them and not call them a traitor. If it weren't for Judas, whose to say that the prophecies would have been fulfilled the way they were supposed to be??? I say Judas did it all for you!!!

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello and Peace be to all,

This post shouldn't be very long but after listening to "judith" by A perfect circle. I began to wonder.

Why is Judas viewed as negatively in Christianity??? I mean he is the one who helped the prophecy succeed in order for your sins to be forgiven(I reject atonement and original sin, but for the sake of argument I will not touch upon it much....yet :)

Whose to say that maybe Judas wanted to be the one who betrayed Jesus just for the very reason to have the sins of christians forgiven. If someone told me this is the person is partly responsible for my eternal salvation, I would praise them and not call them a traitor. If it weren't for Judas, whose to say that the prophecies would have been fulfilled the way they were supposed to be??? I say Judas did it all for you!!!

Why yes.

Let's also give praise to Caiaphas for what he did in having Jesus put to death.

Let's praise Pilate because he turned coward and went against what he knew was right simply to please the people and win his own position.

Let's praise the people because they rejected God's salvation that came to them.

Bottom line: Here's why we don't praise Judas.

What he did was evil.

The God who knows the beginning from the end can use the evil actions of men to bring about good. That in on way justifies their actions.

As Romans says, when we meet some who say "Let us do evil that good may result", then their condemnation is deserved.

[Pilgrim]

Why yes.

Let's also give praise to Caiaphas for what he did in having Jesus put to death.

Let's praise Pilate because he turned coward and went against what he knew was right simply to please the people and win his own position.

Let's praise the people because they rejected God's salvation that came to them.

Bottom line: Here's why we don't praise Judas.

What he did was evil.

The God who knows the beginning from the end can use the evil actions of men to bring about good. That in on way justifies their actions.

As Romans says, when we meet some who say "Let us do evil that good may result", then their condemnation is deserved.

Evil but necessary. And according to God's will. It is an interesting question.

[mastralvarado]

The agnostics cannot accept the Gospel of Judas because it implies that Jesus existence was partially man and partially G-d. Does hypostatic union not require that he be Fully man and fully God? Gnostics reject the trinity because of this.

[Pilgrim]

The agnostics cannot accept the Gospel of Judas because it implies that Jesus existence was partially man and partially G-d. Does hypostatic union not require that he be Fully man and fully God? Gnostics reject the trinity because of this?

Interesting question but not really related to this thread topic. Why don't you start a new thread?

[mastralvarado]

I have already started a thread over that "Is the trinity Fruitful?". I changed the question to an affirmation. You see, all of these topics are interrelated and you simply can't focus on a single point without looking at the whole picture first.

[moose7237]

Why yes.

Let's also give praise to Caiaphas for what he did in having Jesus put to death.

Let's praise Pilate because he turned coward and went against what he knew was right simply to please the people and win his own position.

Let's praise the people because they rejected God's salvation that came to them.

Bottom line: Here's why we don't praise Judas.

What he did was evil.

The God who knows the beginning from the end can use the evil actions of men to bring about good. That in on way justifies their actions.

As Romans says, when we meet some who say "Let us do evil that good may result", then their condemnation is deserved.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

My point was, what if his intent was to really fulfill scripture? Is this really a bad thing on his part then? What he did was help fulfill the prophecy so christians can have their sins forgiven. Its like saying a person steals bread to feed children that are about to die. The act may have been evil but the intention was good nevertheless.

[Sparko]

Moose, since Satan fulfils his role of being evil in the Koran so that Allah can deliver us from him, does that mean that muslims praise Satan?

I should hope not.

Neither do Christians praise evil doers like Judas even if they are fullfilling their destiny. Sinning to get more grace is condemned in the bible.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

My point was, what if his intent was to really fulfill scripture? Is this really a bad thing on his part then? What he did was help fulfill the prophecy so christians can have their sins forgiven. Its like saying a person steals bread to feed children that are about to die. The act may have been evil but the intention was good nevertheless.

I doubt that was his intent seeing as he committed suicide afterwards....

[moose7237]

Moose, since Satan fulfils his role of being evil in the Koran so that Allah can deliver us from him, does that mean that muslims praise Satan?

I should hope not.

Neither do Christians praise evil doers like Judas even if they are fullfilling their destiny. Sinning to get more grace is condemned in the bible.


Hello and Peace be to you friend,
Satan really does not influence whether we go to paradise or not. It is God's command and Grace that decides this.

For example, if someone said that if you kill an innocent person, but the reward is eternal paradise for mankind, would people really see this act as evil or ultimately good?

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,
Satan really does not influence whether we go to paradise or not. It is God's command and Grace that decides this.

For example, if someone said that if you kill an innocent person, but the reward is eternal paradise for mankind, would people really see this act as evil or ultimately good?

Evil of course.

Remember again our belief from Paul, let us do evil that good may result is condemnable?

For us, Heaven is a place where all reflect the qualities of God. That would include treating life the way he does.

Remember also that he said he would be cut off if it would mean life for his brethren the Jews.

[Storico]

Had Judas a real heart for Christ's gospel, he would have refused payment for turning Jesus in, he would have explained to the disciples and to Jesus what he was doing, or Jesus would have explained to them that Judas had to do this for him, and we would have seen evidence of this in the Bible. Judas also would have likely remained with Jesus and his disciples until Judas himself was killed, along with many of them. That none of the above happened is a good indication that Judas wasn't trying to be a hero. He accepted money for turning Jesus in. He betrayed him. He had no way of knowing that turning him in WOULD do anything significant for mankind --- he killed himself before the resurrection. We don't praise Judas for his actions. There's no evidence Judas had ever been asked, by Jesus, to turn him in. Now, my thinking is that even if Judas had remained silent, the authorities would have eventually taken Jesus anyhow -- perhaps a year later, or more, or less. That still doesn't glorify what Judas did. Instead, it shows us that Jesus and His Heavenly Father used evil for good, turned brokenness into something whole again. Judas wasn't responsible for that turn of events. God was.

[Sparko]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,
Satan really does not influence whether we go to paradise or not. It is God's command and Grace that decides this.

For example, if someone said that if you kill an innocent person, but the reward is eternal paradise for mankind, would people really see this act as evil or ultimately good?

Moose, without Satan having tempted Eve to eat from the tree, sin would never have entered the world and God would have nothing to save us from. So according to your logic, we should be praising Satan because he gave God something good to do (save us from hell)

So I guess that means you will start praising Satan?

[shunyadragon]

Evil but necessary. And according to God's will. It is an interesting question.

Is evil than also God's will? Judas fulfilled an important and necessary role in the gospels. I believe that one who performs God's will could hardly be called evil.

[mastralvarado]

Hello Storico,
I'm quite open as to the interpretation of the authorative and non-authorative texts because of the lack of evidence on Matthew's Gospel and the inconclusive evidence of whether Judas sin was of the flesh or of the spirit on his part.
Had Judas a real heart for Christ's gospel, he would have refused payment for turning Jesus in, he would have explained to the disciples and to Jesus what he was doing, or Jesus would have explained to them that Judas had to do this for him, and we would have seen evidence of this in the Bible. Judas also would have likely remained with Jesus and his disciples until Judas himself was killed, along with many of them. That none of the above happened is a good indication that Judas wasn't trying to be a hero. He accepted money for turning Jesus in. He betrayed him. He had no way of knowing that turning him in WOULD do anything significant for mankind --- he killed himself before the resurrection. We don't praise Judas for his actions. There's no evidence Judas had ever been asked, by Jesus, to turn him in. Now, my thinking is that even if Judas had remained silent, the authorities would have eventually taken Jesus anyhow -- perhaps a year later, or more, or less. That still doesn't glorify what Judas did. Instead, it shows us that Jesus and His Heavenly Father used evil for good, turned brokenness into something whole again. Judas wasn't responsible for that turn of events. God was.
From Storico:
There's no evidence Judas had ever been asked, by Jesus, to turn him in.

From me:
If you would accept non-authoritave scripture as evidence, the Gospel of Judas (GOJ) is evidence. But if you don't accept the non-authorative scripture then there is no evidence.

Using Authorative texts:
Just the evidence that Judas "hanged himself" is hardly complete without the use of Judas's own words as proof as well. Have you given thought to the possibility that Jesus instructed Judas to do all of those hypocritical deeds as act of testing of the Apostles' understanding of all of his teachings? In other words, this was the "final test of faith" for the Apostles.
_____
Using Mathew 27:5 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Matthew+27) (in context)


Judas Hangs Himself
3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus [1] was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.”



There is basically almost no evidence from authorative texts as to what Judas's words were so as to make a full picture of the man's personality. In literal context, this passage, "Judas Hangs Himself"bring s to light very little evidence so as not to become biased. An qualitative anomaly comes to mind, such as the "blood money" remark of the chief priests. Is it unlawful for chief priests according to Jewish law to take into the treasury "blood money"? Do you think that the person who wrote any of the Gospels had the intention of researching what the Pharisees said after Judas took that money?
If there is a law in Jewish Jurisprudence that does not allow blood money to be saved in the treasury?
No. it just says "and he went and he hanged himself". Isn't it obvious the person who wrote this is not an Apostle? If he was, he would have known that Jesus would have forgiven Judas (betrayal is not an unforgiveable sin of the spirit such as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).
[/quote]
"And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed,[I] and he went and hanged himself"
Using common sense:
a) Judas dropped the money into the temple (not mentioned in GOJ)
b) Judas could have dropped the money anywhere
________

It seems like Judas gave the money back thereby symbolically obeying Jesus remark in Mark 12:17 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Mark+12%3A17)


Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” And they marveled at him.


Thus, in dropping the money inside the temple, it seems to me using common sense, that it is something symbollic related to Mark 12:17.

Conclusions:
If Judas Iscariot was an evil man/possesed, without a reasonable doubt, when he dropped the money he would have dropped it outside of the temple. Doesn't common sense tell you that Jesus could have exorcised Judas "satan" mentioned in (see John 13:27) (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=John+13:27) . If Jesus could not exorcise him, then Judas was much worse than a betrayer and possibly a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost (Jesus would not have picked him as an apostle).
If he (Judas Iscariot) was insightful and the best Apostle of Jesus as the Gospel of Judas makes Judas to be, then either Jesus instructed him or he did everything willingly when taking into account the other Gospels. I have read the Gospel of Judas BTW.
How could Jesus have forgiven/chosen Judas if he was a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost as in Luke 12:10 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Luke+12%3A10)? Traitor, he might have been, but he was not a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit because his sin was of the flesh (deeds). Jesus could have forgiven him if he had not commited suicide. Only someone who has lost everything commits suicide while saddened. Contrarily to this emotional state of mind, someone who is angry rarely commits suicide by hanging. If I were to form a conclusion based on authorative texts, Judas commited a sin that was of the flesh (caused by an evil spirit) and thus forgiveable. The sad part is that in John 13:2 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=John+13) says that betrayal on Judas part was a sin of the heart (spirit) and no accounts of his words (in the authorative Gospels) that can be recognized as an evil heart on Judas account(see http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Matthew+15%3A18).

I hope this clarifies things for you.

As ever, Mastralvarado

[moose7237]

Moose, without Satan having tempted Eve to eat from the tree, sin would never have entered the world and God would have nothing to save us from. So according to your logic, we should be praising Satan because he gave God something good to do (save us from hell)

So I guess that means you will start praising Satan?

Hello and Peace be to you friend,
we both have different views on this matter. If satan never tempted Adam, according to Muslim theology, there is no guarantee that we still would be here and Adam in heaven. We don't believe in original sin that is. Adam's fault was not the cause for our faults. But Judas did probably fulfill an act that was of God's will to lead into the crucifixion. He helped prophecy be fulfilled and helped contribute to your paradise. I wouldn't see him as evil if he contributes to your paradise.

[Sparko]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,
we both have different views on this matter. If satan never tempted Adam, according to Muslim theology, there is no guarantee that we still would be here and Adam in heaven. We don't believe in original sin that is. Adam's fault was not the cause for our faults. But Judas did probably fulfill an act that was of God's will to lead into the crucifixion. He helped prophecy be fulfilled and helped contribute to your paradise. I wouldn't see him as evil if he contributes to your paradise.

When evil fulfils a prophesy that does not make it good. I just means that God knew what they would do. the fact that God can make something meant for evil into something good does not mean that the evil act should be praised. To even suggest that is nonsense.

[moose7237]

When evil fulfils a prophesy that does not make it good. I just means that God knew what they would do. the fact that God can make something meant for evil into something good does not mean that the evil act should be praised. To even suggest that is nonsense.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I would say that the ultimate act is not evil if it results in reward that guarantees billions of people to salvation. How would such an act be evil? For example, if I had a chance to kill Hitler as a baby, would you consider this to be an evil act? I wouldn't say so, because I would be saving thousands if not millions of lives. To say that the act is evil that was done by Judas, in my opinion, is not something right so at all.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I would say that the ultimate act is not evil if it results in reward that guarantees billions of people to salvation. How would such an act be evil? For example, if I had a chance to kill Hitler as a baby, would you consider this to be an evil act? I wouldn't say so, because I would be saving thousands if not millions of lives. To say that the act is evil that was done by Judas, in my opinion, is not something right so at all.

So Jesus comes claiming to have new revelation from the one true God and it's not an evil act to deny him and in fact it's not even evil to crucify him if that'll bring salvation?

Hmmmm. I wonder if it could be called then good to deny that Mohammad came giving new revelation since it allows others to come to Christianity and be saved.

[Sparko]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I would say that the ultimate act is not evil if it results in reward that guarantees billions of people to salvation. How would such an act be evil? For example, if I had a chance to kill Hitler as a baby, would you consider this to be an evil act? I wouldn't say so, because I would be saving thousands if not millions of lives. To say that the act is evil that was done by Judas, in my opinion, is not something right so at all.

The ultimate result of Hitler killing all the Jews was that mankind banded together to destroy hitler. The Jews got their own country, we got an alliance of nations (NATO and the UN) - so much good has come from Hitler's evil. Does that mean we should praise Hitler for his actions?

Please, Moose, get some common sense.

[sylvius]

The ultimate result of Hitler killing all the Jews was that mankind banded together to destroy hitler. The Jews got their own country, we got an alliance of nations (NATO and the UN) - so much good has come from Hitler's evil. Does that mean we should praise Hitler for his actions?

Please, Moose, get some common sense.

you forgot the Autobahn

[moose7237]

So Jesus comes claiming to have new revelation from the one true God and it's not an evil act to deny him and in fact it's not even evil to crucify him if that'll bring salvation?

Hmmmm. I wonder if it could be called then good to deny that Mohammad came giving new revelation since it allows others to come to Christianity and be saved.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Jesus' purpose was not for new revelation, his death was his purpose so your sins can be forgiven. It would be good to deny Muhammad and come to christianity if christianity was in fact the true religion of God. But to the Muslim understanding it is not. For as the Jews were under the impression that they are responsible for their own sins, the Muslims too have this belief.

[moose7237]

The ultimate result of Hitler killing all the Jews was that mankind banded together to destroy hitler. The Jews got their own country, we got an alliance of nations (NATO and the UN) - so much good has come from Hitler's evil. Does that mean we should praise Hitler for his actions?

Please, Moose, get some common sense.

hello and peace be to you friend,

firstly, not all of mankind was against hitler. Germany, japan, and Italy made up the Axis. Secondly, one told you that this baby is hitler, and you know that history would not change and that Hitler would kill the Jews, would you not want to kill him? I would say that many people, if presented with the opportunity would have done so. If Hitler would have been killed as a baby, he would never have killed the Jews, and that would mean that NATO would have been made another way. But the best result would have been saving innocent lives. Now, on to Judas, he was a big reason for your salvation. The Gospel of Judas claims that the crucifixion was staged, maybe Judas did want to fulfill prophecy so you can get your salvation. It is possible. Like I mentioned earlier, how can an act be evil if the ultimate result is the best reward possible for any man and that is salvation?

[Sparko]

hello and peace be to you friend,

firstly, not all of mankind was against hitler. Germany, japan, and Italy made up the Axis. Secondly, one told you that this baby is hitler, and you know that history would not change and that Hitler would kill the Jews, would you not want to kill him? I would say that many people, if presented with the opportunity would have done so. If Hitler would have been killed as a baby, he would never have killed the Jews, and that would mean that NATO would have been made another way. But the best result would have been saving innocent lives. Now, on to Judas, he was a big reason for your salvation. The Gospel of Judas claims that the crucifixion was staged, maybe Judas did want to fulfill prophecy so you can get your salvation. It is possible. Like I mentioned earlier, how can an act be evil if the ultimate result is the best reward possible for any man and that is salvation?

Judas was not trying to save mankind. He was trying to betray Jesus (and he suceeded) That was an evil act.

If you murdered Hitler as a baby that would be an act of evil. You would be evil.

It's pretty simple Moose. The fact that you can't even recognize that shows that you have a lack of morals that is mind boggling. Is that the kind of stuff they teach in Islam? That the end justifies the means? No wonder the middle east is in so much trouble. Using your logic any attocity can be called "good" as long as some eventual good can come of it, even to the point of murdering babies.

[moose7237]

Judas was not trying to save mankind. He was trying to betray Jesus (and he suceeded) That was an evil act.

If you murdered Hitler as a baby that would be an act of evil. You would be evil.

It's pretty simple Moose. The fact that you can't even recognize that shows that you have a lack of morals that is mind boggling. Is that the kind of stuff they teach in Islam? That the end justifies the means? No wonder the middle east is in so much trouble. Using your logic any attocity can be called "good" as long as some eventual good can come of it, even to the point of murdering babies.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Firstly Sparko, why even bring Islam into any of this??? This is not the Islam forum. Now if I murdered Hitler as a baby, I would not say its an evil act, because if I were to let him live and leave the rest of history alone, even more evil would come about. I know he is going to be a murderer and create so much more chaos, so by killing him thousands of lives would be saved. Same thing with Judas. He betrayed Jesus, yet he contributed to your salvation by fulfilling prophecy. Why would this be considered evil? To contribute to the so called salvation of billions of people?

[Sparko]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Firstly Sparko, why even bring Islam into any of this??? This is not the Islam forum. Now if I murdered Hitler as a baby, I would not say its an evil act, because if I were to let him live and leave the rest of history alone, even more evil would come about. I know he is going to be a murderer and create so much more chaos, so by killing him thousands of lives would be saved. Same thing with Judas. He betrayed Jesus, yet he contributed to your salvation by fulfilling prophecy. Why would this be considered evil? To contribute to the so called salvation of billions of people?


Killing someone before they have even done anything is evil, moose. Its called MURDER. Killing a baby is MURDER.

I hope you don't actually believe the crap you spew out.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Jesus' purpose was not for new revelation, his death was his purpose so your sins can be forgiven. It would be good to deny Muhammad and come to christianity if christianity was in fact the true religion of God. But to the Muslim understanding it is not. For as the Jews were under the impression that they are responsible for their own sins, the Muslims too have this belief.

Hmmm. Doesn't that disagree with the Qu'ran anyway to say that Jesus died?

[moose7237]

Hmmm. Doesn't that disagree with the Qu'ran anyway to say that Jesus died?

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

my intention is not to bring any of my beliefs to this thread. And yes, we don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, nor do we believe in atonement.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

my intention is not to bring any of my beliefs to this thread. And yes, we don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, nor do we believe in atonement.

Alright. Then to get back, you said it was good to believe if it was true. So what? Why don't I just not believe and have that be good and you can praise me for it?

[moose7237]

Killing someone before they have even done anything is evil, moose. Its called MURDER. Killing a baby is MURDER.

I hope you don't actually believe the crap you spew out.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I am giving the hypothetical, that if you knew what hitler was going to do in the future, and the only way to stop it is to kill him as an infant, if you do not take the opportunity, history will remain unchanged. You are saying that you wouldn't take the opportunity? I can tell you a lot of Jews would take it. You are ok with thousands of lives tortured and dead, but to kill the person who did so, even if he was a baby is not ok with you? I am quite sure, that many have an opposing view then yours sparko.

[moose7237]

Alright. Then to get back, you said it was good to believe if it was true. So what? Why don't I just not believe and have that be good and you can praise me for it?

hello and peace be to you,

i don't understand your point here, can you please re-clarify?

[Sparko]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I am giving the hypothetical, that if you knew what hitler was going to do in the future, and the only way to stop it is to kill him as an infant, if you do not take the opportunity, history will remain unchanged. You are saying that you wouldn't take the opportunity? I can tell you a lot of Jews would take it. You are ok with thousands of lives tortured and dead, but to kill the person who did so, even if he was a baby is not ok with you? I am quite sure, that many have an opposing view then yours sparko.

If I knew for a fact that some baby was going to grow up to be a mass murderer I would still not kill that baby. It would still be murder because that baby has not done anything wrong. The ends does not justify the means. You can't murder a baby because of something it will do when it grows up. That is evil.

sheesh moose. Are you that morally bankrupt?

[Shadow Phoenix]

hello and peace be to you,

i don't understand your point here, can you please re-clarify?

What's so hard to understand. Your idea could be used to justify ANYTHING by saying "My intentions were good!" or "I knew God would work it for good."

[moose7237]

If I knew for a fact that some baby was going to grow up to be a mass murderer I would still not kill that baby. It would still be murder because that baby has not done anything wrong. The ends does not justify the means. You can't murder a baby because of something it will do when it grows up. That is evil.

sheesh moose. Are you that morally bankrupt?

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Ok, so you say, let him kill the thousands of people, then we will kill him. Man, so many people, especially people who lost loved ones would respect that decision. :lol: If I had an opportunity to kill the person for example, that will end up killing my father, and I know this will happen, and the person will be guilty, I can tell you whether or not he was a child or an adult, I would kill him. Call me an inhumane human being, but I can tell you so many other people would do the same exact thing. You are saying, let him do the mass murder first, which will result in emotional distress then kill him, instead of killing him before the murder and to avoid thousands of lives lost. Riiiiiiiiiight. I think I will stick to my idea. I would call you inhumane for not taking the action of saving thousands of lives. If you knew this piece of information, and you could have stopped it, you are no better then the murderer.

[moose7237]

What's so hard to understand. Your idea could be used to justify ANYTHING by saying "My intentions were good!" or "I knew God would work it for good."

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Well it depends on the situtation. I never said ANYTHING. Because my intentions could be good, but they can be harmful to others at the same time. In regards to Judas, maybe his intent was bad, I don't know because of the information contained in the gospel of Judas. But the fact is that his action resulted in the ultimate reward for billions of people(these are not my beliefs, just to clear it up), I can't see this as an evil act. For example, say that I stole from a rich person to feed hundreds of families, but the rich person would not be affected much at all, quantity wise that is, and these people would have died had I not committed this act. Would one say that this is an evil act? It is more good then evil if you ask me.

[Sparko]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Ok, so you say, let him kill the thousands of people, then we will kill him. Man, so many people, especially people who lost loved ones would respect that decision. :lol: If I had an opportunity to kill the person for example, that will end up killing my father, and I know this will happen, and the person will be guilty, I can tell you whether or not he was a child or an adult, I would kill him. Call me an inhumane human being, but I can tell you so many other people would do the same exact thing. You are saying, let him do the mass murder first, which will result in emotional distress then kill him, instead of killing him before the murder and to avoid thousands of lives lost. Riiiiiiiiiight. I think I will stick to my idea. I would call you inhumane for not taking the action of saving thousands of lives. If you knew this piece of information, and you could have stopped it, you are no better then the murderer.
And so maybe someone should kill you before you kill the hitler baby to stop you from killing a baby who has done nothing wrong. and then someone should kill that person before he kills you to stop him from killing you. and so on...

Get real Moose.

Did you every watch that movie Minority Report? Where they had some psycops that could tell the future and they went around arresting people before they could commit crimes? Basically arresting and killing innocent people because of what they would do in the future. You would fit right in there.

[mastralvarado]

So Jesus comes claiming to have new revelation from the one true God and it's not an evil act to deny him and in fact it's not even evil to crucify him if that'll bring salvation?

Hmmmm. I wonder if it could be called then good to deny that Mohammad came giving new revelation since it allows others to come to Christianity and be saved.

http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Corinthians+11%3A4
4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.


Compare this to anyone to what someone who says this:


For if someone comes and proclaims another god than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different "news" from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.


This is no different of what men of old used to say when a prophet/truth bringer did come with genuine truths.

[The King]

Why is Judas viewed as negatively in Christianity??? I mean he is the one who helped the prophecy succeed in order for your sins to be forgiven

Zizek agrees with you:

“The hidden perverse core of Christianity: if it is prohibited to eat from the Tree of Knowledge in Paradise, why did God put it there in the first place? Is it not that this was a part of His perverse strategy first to seduce Adam and Eve into the Fall, in order then to save them? That is to say: should one not apply Paul’s insight into how the prohibitive law creates sin to this very first prohibition also? A similar obscure ambiguity surrounds the role of Judas in Christ’s death: since his betrayal was necessary to his mission (to redeem humanity through his death on the Cross), did Christ not need it? Are his ominous words during the last Supper not a secret injunction to Judas to betray him? “Judas, who betrayed him, said, ‘Surely not I. Rabbi?’ He replied. ‘You have said so’” (Matthew 26:25). The rhetorical figure of Christ’s reply is, of course, that of disavowed injunction: Judas is interpellated as the one who will hand Christ over to the authorities--not directly (“You are the one who Will betray me!”), but so that the responsibility is put onto the other. Is Judas not therefore the ultimate hero of the New Testament, the one who was ready to lose his soul and accept eternal damnation so that the divine plan could be accomplished? In all other religions, God demands that His followers remain faithful to Him--only Christ asked his followers to betray him in order to fulfil his mission. Here I am tempted to claim that the entire fate of Christianity, its innermost kernel, hinges on the possibility of interpreting this act in a nonperverse way.”

- Slavoj Zizek, The Puppet and the Dwarf: The Perverse Core of Christianity (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 2003), 15-16.

[DanN1]

And so maybe someone should kill you before you kill the hitler baby to stop you from killing a baby who has done nothing wrong. and then someone should kill that person before he kills you to stop him from killing you. and so on...

Get real Moose.

Did you every watch that movie Minority Report? Where they had some psycops that could tell the future and they went around arresting people before they could commit crimes? Basically arresting and killing innocent people because of what they would do in the future. You would fit right in there.

Whether killing an infant Hitler constitutes murder depends on a key issue: whether sin is preordained. If we cannot agree on that we cannot agree on whether going back and killing the infant form of a murderer is execution or murder itself.

----

In answer to the original post, we can supercede the question of whether Judas is to be praised for his hand in Christ's crucifixion with the question of whether Satan is to be praised, for it is clearly stated in Luke 22:3, "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve" as well as in John 13:27.

[Lazarus]

If I'm not mistaken, I thought that the Eastern Orthodox tradition of Christianity did, in fact, recognize Judas Iscariot, as well as Pontius Pilate, as saints precisely because they played such prominant roles in God's plan of salvation. Be that as it may, I think it is safe to say that the betrayal of Jesus by Judas was indeed a sin against God. It was not, however, an unforgivable one. From what we know of the character of Jesus as revealed in the scriptures, and from what we know of St. Peter's own experience after his betrayal of Jesus, I think we can assume that Jesus would have forgiven Judas his sin if Judas had desired forgiveness. Either Judas either did not desire it or he did not feel it was possible for him to receive it and so fell into despair. To my mind this is his greater sin. I do not know if we can call Judas blessed, but I do believe we can pray that God has mercy on him. Indeed, I have often prayed for Judas Iscariot and other recognized sinners of scripture. Only God can justly measure a person's goodness or their evil, and in praying that God's mercy may fall on Judas, perhaps he will be merciful to me as well.

[Petragon]

Zechariah talks about throwing silver into the house of Yaweh "the potter". Judas probably knew this or Matthew invented Judas' actions. (since no one else mentions it). It depends on the level of trust you put into Matthew. Personally, I feel that, if it happened at all, Judas knew the prophecy, Jesus knew the prophecy, and Jesus did what he could to ensure it was fulfilled. Then again, that's assuming Jesus ever existed in the first place, which for the sake of this discussion, it must be presumed that he did.

[anewlife]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I am giving the hypothetical, that if you knew what hitler was going to do in the future, and the only way to stop it is to kill him as an infant, if you do not take the opportunity, history will remain unchanged. You are saying that you wouldn't take the opportunity? I can tell you a lot of Jews would take it. You are ok with thousands of lives tortured and dead, but to kill the person who did so, even if he was a baby is not ok with you? I am quite sure, that many have an opposing view then yours sparko.
First off, are you assuming that killing is the only viable solution in this circumstance? If so, why?

Secondly, if you had the ability to know future events, surely you could also know how to prevent Hitler from ever becoming into power, or how to shape events that would deter Hitler from ever having any capabilities to commit any such wrongdoings.

As hypothetical as your distorted theory seems, with your pragmatic view of justice in killing Hitler , would still be evil, for it would be murder, and you would still be apt to punishment.