Health is yours Storico

[outcast]

Hello Storico :lol: First of all your assumptions are faulty. First i do NOT Belive in "Name it Claim it Doctrine. Second Yes i do belive in health and Prosperity for all Christians. Are you ready for the truth:eek: Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free,

Do you want to have a debate on Healing?? the only thing i ask is that have an open mind so that you can hear the message and then Judge it latter. We should be able to openly discuss the bible in a civil matter, without ad homien attack on both sides.

I have several questions, my first one is:

1. If Jesus Christ walked the earth today in the year 2007 would He still heal the sick, as He did in the Gospels?:pray:

[Lost]

Hello Storico :lol: First of all your assumptions are faulty. First i do NOT Belive in "Name it Claim it Doctrine. Second Yes i do belive in health and Prosperity for all Christians. Are you ready for the truth:eek: Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free,

Do you want to have a debate on Healing?? the only thing i ask is that have an open mind so that you can hear the message and then Judge it latter. We should be able to openly discuss the bible in a civil matter, without ad homien attack on both sides.

I have several questions, my first one is:

1. If Jesus Christ walked the earth today in the year 2007 would He still heal the sick, as He did in the Gospels?:pray:

I guess this thread is is for Storico but I thought I might just chime in.
Whilst I might go against the entire tide of this forum and will be totally flamed, I agree in as much as I know that I know that I know that we have been given the authority over all the works of the devil and that includes sickness & disease.
The difficult problem is that there is an enormous tide to swim against but then there is the challenge.
Some of the tide is caused by the abuse of that authority and the extreme ideas that have sometimes accompanied it but what I do know is that the underlying fact that we have been given that authority remains unchanged waiting for christians to take up that authority as they are led to by the Holy Spirit and only in that way.
Sheesh this is going to be a lousy thread.

[outcast]

Amen, you are 100% correct LOST. The Word of God settles it, who cares what i say, what the bible says is absolute truth, end of story. Jesus said i give you "Authority" over all the works of the devil. If Jesus said "i give you authority," that is a absolute truth, unchangeable, doesn't matter if the culture changes God Word does not change.

[Bill the Cat]

Outcast,

Do you believe God desires all Christians to healthy and wealthy?

[Zguy28]

It is written:

"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

[outcast]

Yes i do belive it is God will for His people to be healthy in mind, body, and spirit. Let me clarify what i mean, so you dont get the wrong idea of what im saying. Yes it is always God will to heal the sick. However yes we do experience colds, flu, and symptoms of being sick, what im saying though is i dont go pointing the finger at someone who is sick, saying their sick because of sin or lack of faith, no christian should do that. Do you think "Bill" that satan wants his people sick or healthy that they may do his will on the earth?

Now on the second question you will have to define for me what you consider being wealthy? for the sake of better understanding where your coming from,

[dizzle]

However yes we do experience colds, flu, and symptoms of being sick, what im saying though is i dont go pointing the finger at someone who is sick, saying their sick because of sin or lack of faith, no christian should do that.

Then you are inconsistent.

[Bill the Cat]

Yes i do belive it is God will for His people to be healthy in mind, body, and spirit.

But from your clarification, not at all times?

Let me clarify what i mean, so you dont get the wrong idea of what im saying. Yes it is always God will to heal the sick.

Why did He not heal Paul's eyesight? Not only was Paul not healed, but he had to leave Trophimus in Miletus because of sickness (2 Tim. 4:20). His beloved friend Epaphroditus was gravely ill (Phil. 2:24-30). His son in the faith, Timothy, had frequent stomach disorders, concerning which Paul didn't tell him to "claim healing" but to drink a little wine for medicinal purposes (1 Tim. 5:23).



However yes we do experience colds, flu, and symptoms of being sick, what im saying though is i dont go pointing the finger at someone who is sick, saying their sick because of sin or lack of faith, no christian should do that.

I would NEVER do that. Sickness is part of fallen man's nature. We get sick and we die. THose are facts of life. God does not want us permanently healthy until We are in His presence.


Do you think "Bill" that satan wants his people sick or healthy that they may do his will on the earth?

I think he will use them however he sees fit, whether well or sick. And when he is done with them, they will be dead, broke, or destroyed.

Now on the second question you will have to define for me what you consider being wealthy? for the sake of better understanding where your coming from,

Wealthy is having more money than what you need to accomplish what God has called you to do, IMHO.

[Zguy28]

In addition to Bill's post, it is important to note that there is more than one reason why people, even Christians, suffer ill health.

Some to show God's healing power:

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

some to show His power despite the person's continued weakness:

there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

some because of sin:

29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.

Z

[outcast]

Originally posted by outcast
Yes i do belive it is God will for His people to be healthy in mind, body, and spirit.
But from your clarification, not at all times?

Once God wills something He cannot go back on His word, Just because somebody is sick doesnt mean that its not God will for them to be healed

Why did He not heal Paul's eyesight? Not only was Paul not healed, but he had to leave Trophimus in Miletus because of sickness (2 Tim. 4:20). His beloved friend Epaphroditus was gravely ill (Phil. 2:24-30). His son in the faith, Timothy, had frequent stomach disorders, concerning which Paul didn't tell him to "claim healing" but to drink a little wine for medicinal purposes (1 Tim. 5:23).

First of all Paul never had a eyesight problem as many have been deceived into believing, i even used to belive that false doctrine. Apostle Paul was healed by a disciple when he was blinded originally by Christ Light.
Paul never had to tell Timothy about healing because it is part of the Covenant both old and new.

would NEVER do that. Sickness is part of fallen man's nature. We get sick and we die. THose are facts of life. God does not want us permanently healthy until We are in His presence.

First Sin is part of Mans fallen nature sickness and disease, death are a result. in the sense After Adam fall thats when Sickness and disease entered the earth as a result of sin
We die Physically because of are Fleshly bodies which are corrupt. How is God glorified with His body being sick? we as humans should be dying of natural causes not sickness and disease. All sickness and disease are Oppresion of the devil.

Wealthy is having more money than what you need to accomplish what God has called you to do, IMHO.

You are right i dont need more money then what is needed to acomplish God will for my life.

Prosperity is not Just money and wealth to me, and the bible does not teach that God is a glorified Santa Clause, who will give you whatever you want . The Hebrew word "Shalom" means Peace, Prosperity. Prosperity can mean good health, not just money.

So bill are you gonna answer my original question ? "If Jesus Christ walked the earth today in the year 2007, would He still heal the sick cast out demons, raise the dead as He did in the Gospels?

[Bill the Cat]

Originally posted by outcast
Yes i do belive it is God will for His people to be healthy in mind, body, and spirit.
But from your clarification, not at all times?

Once God wills something He cannot go back on His word, Just because somebody is sick doesnt mean that its not God will for them to be healed

Nor is it an indication that it is His will is for them to die of the sickness, i.e. Lazarus

Why did He not heal Paul's eyesight? Not only was Paul not healed, but he had to leave Trophimus in Miletus because of sickness (2 Tim. 4:20). His beloved friend Epaphroditus was gravely ill (Phil. 2:24-30). His son in the faith, Timothy, had frequent stomach disorders, concerning which Paul didn't tell him to "claim healing" but to drink a little wine for medicinal purposes (1 Tim. 5:23).

First of all Paul never had a eyesight problem as many have been deceived into believing, i even used to belive that false doctrine. Apostle Paul was healed by a disciple when he was blinded originally by Christ Light.

You can disagree with it all you want, but the inferences are there. Paul was a man who bore the marks of an oft beaten man. He was not in picture perfect health. His companions were also ill, i.e. Trophimus and Epaphroditus.

Paul never had to tell Timothy about healing because it is part of the Covenant both old and new.

That's an argument from silence. Paul never told Timothy to demand his healing, but to remedy it with a little wine.

would NEVER do that. Sickness is part of fallen man's nature. We get sick and we die. THose are facts of life. God does not want us permanently healthy until We are in His presence.

First Sin is part of Mans fallen nature sickness and disease, death are a result. in the sense After Adam fall thats when Sickness and disease entered the earth as a result of sin
We die Physically because of are Fleshly bodies which are corrupt. How is God glorified with His body being sick?

In our weakness, He is shown strong.

we as humans should be dying of natural causes not sickness and disease.

What is a natural cause?

All sickness and disease are Oppresion of the devil.

False. Totally false. Some are, but some are for God to show His power and Glory.


2 Kings 15
5 "Then the Lord smote the king, so that he was a leper unto the day of his death."


Psalm 119
75 I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me."


Wealthy is having more money than what you need to accomplish what God has called you to do, IMHO.

You are right i dont need more money then what is needed to acomplish God will for my life.

Prosperity is not Just money and wealth to me, and the bible does not teach that God is a glorified Santa Clause, who will give you whatever you want . The Hebrew word "Shalom" means Peace, Prosperity. Prosperity can mean good health, not just money.

I am glad that you see that. But remember, we are called to suffer for Christ, crucify our flesh, and rejoice in our sufferings.

So bill are you gonna answer my original question ? "If Jesus Christ walked the earth today in the year 2007, would He still heal the sick cast out demons, raise the dead as He did in the Gospels?

Would He find faith? I believe those things would (and do) still happen, but I also realize that He let Lazarus die before raising him from the dead to prove His power. Why did He not just heal Lazarus if it were His will that all believers would be healed?

P.S.
If Jesus were walking the earth today, the First Resurrection would have already taken place.

[outcast]

You can disagree with it all you want, but the inferences are there. Paul was a man who bore the marks of an oft beaten man. He was not in picture perfect health. His companions were also ill, i.e. Trophimus and Epaphroditus.
Apostle Paul was Beaten as a result of persecution, which the bible promises us. Paul asked God to take away the "thorn in his flesh" which was Persecutions, that he could be more effective in ministry, but God said "my grace is sufficient for you" not an eye problem as many belive.
In our weakness, He is shown strong. the context is about faith, not being physical sickness

False. Totally false. Some are, but some are for God to show His power and Glory.

To say something is "Totaly False is a Absolute statement, then for you to say "Some are" shows that your belief is not grounded. Lets see what the bible says In Exodus God says "I am the Lord who Healeth thee" so we can conclude that God is the Healer Right?? then the bible says in Acts 10:38 that satan is the "Oppressor." right??

Even if God wants to show His power over sickness, one cannot say that God is the one who made a person sick or born with a disease, that would be calling God evil , and associating evil with God, thus He would cease to be God.

Psalm 119
75 I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me."
God disciplines those He loves, Their is no reference to Physical sickness, or disease in this scripture, thus the argument is weak.

2 Kings 15
5 "Then the Lord smote the king, so that he was a leper unto the day of his death."

First of all you are not understanding Hebrew thought. In the Context it says that their was idolatry in the land and as discipline he was punished, however as a result of sin he had a open door for the enemy to oppress him. In Hebrew thought the Jews see it as God Putting sickness on someone. But as i have already proven all sickness and disease is from the devil

But remember, we are called to suffer for Christ, crucify our flesh, and rejoice in our sufferings. that is speaking of Persecutions, not being poor or having lack.

Would He find faith? I believe those things would (and do) still happen, but I also realize that He let Lazarus die before raising him from the dead to prove His power. Why did He not just heal Lazarus if it were His will that all believers would be healed?

That is a real good question, I think Jesus would find little faith in Americas Churches.

but I also realize that He let Lazarus die before raising him from the dead to prove His power.
The Jews set up a number of things that the Messiah had to do if he was the Christ, and one of those was the raising of the dead after a certain amount of days, i think three days, Jesus met all the requirements and they still rejected him, i will have to get back to you on this so i can give you full details, and who set it up.

Why did He not heal Lazarus, He did he made him whole, and second it was done in God perfect timing.


Bill I dont like cats they shed to much hair, on the furniture, and carpet.

Bill So you do belive in healing and that Jesus would still heal the sick, I got great news for you Bill,

[Bill the Cat]

You can disagree with it all you want, but the inferences are there. Paul was a man who bore the marks of an oft beaten man. He was not in picture perfect health. His companions were also ill, i.e. Trophimus and Epaphroditus.
Apostle Paul was Beaten as a result of persecution, which the bible promises us.

And that is a red herring. Was Paul a picture of perfect health or not? Did God heal Pauls's scars from the repeated floggings? And why do you continue to dodge the issue of Paul's companions?


Paul asked God to take away the "thorn in his flesh" which was Persecutions, that he could be more effective in ministry, but God said "my grace is sufficient for you" not an eye problem as many belive.

I disagree with you vehemently on this. I already stated my reasons in the other thread on why. Paul had 2 perfectly good Greek words to use for persecution, which he used one 22 times and the other 23 times. Yet, he chose to use the word for infirmities, which was the same word Luke used of the woman with the crooked back in Luk 13:11 and that John used to describe what killed Lazarus in John 11:4. It was a physical ailment, not persecutions from others.


In our weakness, He is shown strong. the context is about faith, not being physical sickness

First, please use the [ QUOTE] [/ QUOTE] tags in your responses when you want to quote me. It makes it easier to read.

Second, It was used in context of pride vs. humility.

False. Totally false. Some are, but some are for God to show His power and Glory.

To say something is "Totaly False is a Absolute statement, then for you to say "Some are" shows that your belief is not grounded.

:sigh: Allow me to restate then. Your absolute statement is incorrect in some cases. Therefore it is false. Let me reiterate... You said ALL sickness and disease come from the devil. This is like saying that ALL water comes from clouds. It is a false statement. While SOME comes from clouds, SOME comes from the faucet which invalidates the absolute statement. Form a logic standpoint, your premise can be invalidated with another premise which invalidates it. I will show one instance where God directly caused the plagues in Egypt.

Lets see what the bible says In Exodus God says "I am the Lord who Healeth thee" so we can conclude that God is the Healer Right??

In Exodus, God also says He will SMITE the firstborn in Egypt. He is more than the healer.

then the bible says in Acts 10:38 that satan is the "Oppressor." right??

Yes, but only as a result of God's will. Do you think that Satan can act independently of what God allows?

Even if God wants to show His power over sickness, one cannot say that God is the one who made a person sick or born with a disease, that would be calling God evil , and associating evil with God, thus He would cease to be God.

God tests us with sickness to see if we will trust Him to see us through it. This is not evil. It is His wisdom and justice.

Psalm 119
75 I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me."
God disciplines those He loves, Their is no reference to Physical sickness, or disease in this scripture, thus the argument is weak.

David references his infirmity all throughout the Psalms, and says the Lord has treated him justly by afflicting him. Psalms 41 shows that David's enemies look upon his disease and say that he will never recover from it.

So, David was sick, as his enemies saw and laughed (Psa. 41), because of his sin, and proclaimed that God afflicted him (Psa. 119)

2 Kings 15
5 "Then the Lord smote the king, so that he was a leper unto the day of his death."

First of all you are not understanding Hebrew thought. In the Context it says that their was idolatry in the land and as discipline he was punished, however as a result of sin he had a open door for the enemy to oppress him. In Hebrew thought the Jews see it as God Putting sickness on someone. But as i have already proven all sickness and disease is from the devil

You proved it? :huh:. All you showed was that the devil CAN cause sickness in those under his domain.


But remember, we are called to suffer for Christ, crucify our flesh, and rejoice in our sufferings. that is speaking of Persecutions, not being poor or having lack.

It has to deal with every situation in our life where we are struggling.

Would He find faith? I believe those things would (and do) still happen, but I also realize that He let Lazarus die before raising him from the dead to prove His power. Why did He not just heal Lazarus if it were His will that all believers would be healed?

That is a real good question, I think Jesus would find little faith in Americas Churches.


I do agree with you there, although I'd extend that to all over the world.

but I also realize that He let Lazarus die before raising him from the dead to prove His power.
The Jews set up a number of things that the Messiah had to do if he was the Christ, and one of those was the raising of the dead after a certain amount of days, i think three days, Jesus met all the requirements and they still rejected him, i will have to get back to you on this so i can give you full details, and who set it up.

Yet it was still sickness that killed Lazarus. If God wanted all believers healed, why was Lazarus sick in the first place?

Why did He not heal Lazarus, He did he made him whole, and second it was done in God perfect timing.

But you missed the point. Why was Lazarus sick in the first place?


Bill I dont like cats they shed to much hair, on the furniture, and carpet.

I really don't like cats very much either. Allergies and all. But I don't see what this has to do with this thread... :huh:

Bill So you do belive in healing and that Jesus would still heal the sick, I got great news for you Bill,

I do absolutely believe in healing, but I believe it is abused by many today. I do however believe that it is God's will that believer can and do get sick from time to time so they learn to rely on Him for their health.

[outcast]

Bill,Bill, Bill. You really belive that it is God will for people to get sick so that they can rely on him for faith, have you thought about what you are saying about your creator?? Thats like saying that it is God will for some to go to hell, and others to go to heaven.

You are associating (evil,sin, sickness, disease, ) with a perfect creator who cant do that because He is perfect and it is against His nature, any ways Bill i could argue with you day after day about this so i will lay out some solid proof about healing. If you choose to reject it that is your free-will choice to do so,

Bill what does the word "Salvation" mean in the Hebrew and Greek, im not saying this sarcastically either.

[Heartablaze]

Bill,Bill, Bill. You really belive that it is God will for people to get sick so that they can rely on him for faith, have you thought about what you are saying about your creator?? Thats like saying that it is God will for some to go to hell, and others to go to heaven.


Read through the gospels again, outcast, I ask you, please. Read them with an open heart to the Holy Spirit, because He is our Helper.

Whether or not you can come ot terms with that He may "will" disease or pain, can you deny that God uses it for his own purposes? Paul's thorn in the flesh was not taken from him. Since you seem to deny this, here is the whole passage:

"So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations,[a] a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
2 Corinthians 12:7-10

Yes, God loves us. But this life is only temporary: God may let disasters and sickness strike us for His glory. There have been many "giants" of the faith who were ill.

That sickness also strikes those who are in opposition to God is also true, but that serves a different purpose.

I do not deny that healing happens today, however it is in those place where God chooses to manifest himself. Mostly I've observed this overseas.

-heartablaze

[Bill the Cat]

Bill,Bill, Bill. You really belive that it is God will for people to get sick so that they can rely on him for faith,

Sickness is one tool of many that God uses to draw men closer to Himself.

have you thought about what you are saying about your creator?? Thats like saying that it is God will for some to go to hell, and others to go to heaven.

No it is not. God's ultimate desire is that all men come to repentance. No where does it say that God desires all men to be healthy at all times.


You are associating (evil,sin, sickness, disease, ) with a perfect creator who cant do that because He is perfect and it is against His nature, any ways Bill i could argue with you day after day about this so i will lay out some solid proof about healing. If you choose to reject it that is your free-will choice to do so,

God causes sickness to befall men. He says many places that He did, does, and will cause sickness and death on men.

Bill what does the word "Salvation" mean in the Hebrew and Greek, im not saying this sarcastically either.

Greek - Soteria - deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
Hebrew - Y@shuw`ah - salvation, deliverance, victory

ok?

[outcast]

Well, i have been gone lately, and i realize that some people will see that as forfeiting the debate, and that is not my intension. However the Holy Spirit told me to leave this board for now because of priority issues. These boards take up to much time for me, and im in bible college and work a full time job and the computer was starting to replace some of my studies.

I think some people here will see that as cowardice but i would rather have the acceptance of God then man, and be obedient to what he says. and since im on here now when i should be in bed i want to say two things pertaing to healing. Then that will be it for me, until a latter time. mayabe a couple of months.

1, Is their any sick people in heaven???????????= NO, of course not amen. Jesus said "Thy will be done on earth as it alredy is in heaven" so we can conclude that it is God will to heal people, other wise you will have to rip that page out of the bible to fit your theology.

2. Im not even going to argue what i heard about God being glorified through are sickness, that is so backwards, and messed up.
How is God glorified in sickness and your disease??????????????????????????????

[The Midge]

Dear Out cast:

You would make a good friend for Job.

[Shadow Phoenix]

we as humans should be dying of natural causes not sickness and disease. All sickness and disease are Oppresion of the devil.

Two things. First off, does this mean that humans are supposed to be Kryptonian since a bullet is hardly a natural cause and if a man gets shot, well it should just bounce off of him if he has faith?

Secondly, in Exodus 4, God says he makes eyes blind and ears deaf. In Genesis, he makes the men of Sodom blind. In Revelation, he sends boils upon those in the kingdom of Satan. In 1 Samuel, he sends tumors on the Philistines who captured the ark of the covenant? He strikes Uzziah with leprosy for trying to offer incense in the temple.

By your argument then, I could conclude that Satan is God. You really wanna say that?

[Lost]

By the same token Jesus healed ALL the sick that came to Him and He did what He saw His Father doing and His Father's will.
We are to do the same Father's will and to walk as Jesus walked.

So now you take what I have said and go around and around the mulberry bush with it for another 20 posts - have fun picking it to bits.

[Gabby]

Jesus also raised Lazarus from the dead.....

[Shadow Phoenix]

By the same token Jesus healed ALL the sick that came to Him and He did what He saw His Father doing and His Father's will.
We are to do the same Father's will and to walk as Jesus walked.

So now you take what I have said and go around and around the mulberry bush with it for another 20 posts - have fun picking it to bits.

Jesus also claimed deity.....

We can do some things Jesus did and some we can't.

The gospels say we are to care for the sick and the needy and those in prison, etc. We are not told to do a miracle for them.

I am against what Outcast is saying because I know what a destructive teaching it can be in that many people die simply because they believe they are guaranteed healing and they're not. I refuse to offer something God never promised.

[Lost]

Jesus also claimed deity.....

We can do some things Jesus did and some we can't.

The gospels say we are to care for the sick and the needy and those in prison, etc. We are not told to do a miracle for them.

I am against what Outcast is saying because I know what a destructive teaching it can be in that many people die simply because they believe they are guaranteed healing and they're not. I refuse to offer something God never promised.

It is not destructive and Jesus gave us the same authority over the works of the enemy as He had.
Unless of course you don't believe that the Holy Spirit ensured that the canon was put together properly - as in the end of Mark - but they open a much bigger can of worms if you opt for that :)

[Shadow Phoenix]

It is not destructive and Jesus gave us the same authority over the works of the enemy as He had.
Unless of course you don't believe that the Holy Spirit ensured that the canon was put together properly - as in the end of Mark - but they open a much bigger can of worms if you opt for that :)

Chapter and verse please?

And it's not destructive? Please tell that to the former Word of Faith followers who saw their children die because they didn't give them medical care.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Im not even going to argue what i heard about God being glorified through are sickness, that is so backwards, and messed up.
How is God glorified in sickness and your disease??????????????????????????????

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The (so was Jesus "backwards, and messed up"?) Curtmudgeon

[Lost]

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The (so was Jesus "backwards, and messed up"?) Curtmudgeon

The works of God was the healing power thru Jesus.
Jesus was showing that just because someone is sick does not necessarily mean that the sickness came because of sin - it can do but not necessarily so we don't need to judge - just to do what we see our Father doing.

[Lost]

Chapter and verse please?

And it's not destructive? Please tell that to the former Word of Faith followers who saw their children die because they didn't give them medical care.

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

Now some may say "are but the most reliable manuscripts do not contain the last bit of Mark".
OK so they are saying that some manuscripts are not inspired, that God did not inspire the collators of the KJV?

That opens a very big can of worms for those that hold to the inerrancy and inspiration of the NT.
What else may be unreliable about the KJV and for that matter with the original manuscripts and maybe even the authors for that matter - can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Storico]

Hello Storico :lol: First of all your assumptions are faulty. First i do NOT Belive in "Name it Claim it Doctrine. Second Yes i do belive in health and Prosperity for all Christians. Are you ready for the truth:eek: Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free,

Do you want to have a debate on Healing?? the only thing i ask is that have an open mind so that you can hear the message and then Judge it latter. We should be able to openly discuss the bible in a civil matter, without ad homien attack on both sides.

I have several questions, my first one is:

1. If Jesus Christ walked the earth today in the year 2007 would He still heal the sick, as He did in the Gospels?:pray:

I seem to have missed this thread, although it was addressed to me back in June. All the same, I'd be happy to try and respond. If you don't mind, would you refresh me on which assumptions of mine you found faulty at the time? I can't recall, so perhaps you can? I'd appreciate it. All the same, from the context of your post...

.. I can see you're saying you don't believe in the "name it and claim it" doctrine. Okay. At the same time, you're saying you believe in health and prosperity for all Christians. Myself, I believe Christians CAN certainly be those things, as can anyone.... but more to the point, we aren't ALWAYS physically healthy and/or "prosperous". I believe Christians can be spiritually healthy, and that we can build up our faith. That's what I'd personally call prosperity.

I'm more than ready for the truth. The truth is, I've got Christ in my life, and I'm unbelievably at peace because of that. The truth is equally that physically, I am not a healthy person, and I will not become a shining example of physical health anytime for the rest of my life. Does that bother me? Nope. My goal isn't physical health. The state of my mind, the state of my soul, and the state of my relationship with God and with those I love are all what counts to me.... and they're all doing very well, I can thankfully say.

I'd be happy to have a discussion with you at any time, but I'm not sure I see the need for a debate. I'd be happy to discuss the bible with you, though.

And to answer your question, yes, I do believe that if Jesus walked the earth in 2007 He'd heal some of the sick, as He did in the gospels. It's also important to note that when Jesus was alive and on earth some 2000 years ago, He didn't heal EVERYONE on earth. There were some he healed physically and mentally, and many He didn't. That was up to Him, and I believe it's still up to Him today. It's more important to me that He healed all of us in a far, far more lasting way. He closed an incredible rift between us and God, and made it so we'd be forgiven and made it so we could find peace with Him.

I'll take peace with Christ over any cure out there any day, and I say that as someone who'd like cures for a lot of things in this world, least of all my own issues. But your thread title sums it up well enough for me, and I thank you for it: "health is yours Storico". Yes. Spiritual, emotional health is mine, the kind of health I'm grateful most for, and I thank God for it.

[Lost]

I seem to have missed this thread, although it was addressed to me back in June. All the same, I'd be happy to try and respond. If you don't mind, would you refresh me on which assumptions of mine you found faulty at the time? I can't recall, so perhaps you can? I'd appreciate it. All the same, from the context of your post...

.. I can see you're saying you don't believe in the "name it and claim it" doctrine. Okay. At the same time, you're saying you believe in health and prosperity for all Christians. Myself, I believe Christians CAN certainly be those things, as can anyone.... but more to the point, we aren't ALWAYS physically healthy and/or "prosperous". I believe Christians can be spiritually healthy, and that we can build up our faith. That's what I'd personally call prosperity.

I'm more than ready for the truth. The truth is, I've got Christ in my life, and I'm unbelievably at peace because of that. The truth is equally that physically, I am not a healthy person, and I will not become a shining example of physical health anytime for the rest of my life. Does that bother me? Nope. My goal isn't physical health. The state of my mind, the state of my soul, and the state of my relationship with God and with those I love are all what counts to me.... and they're all doing very well, I can thankfully say.

I'd be happy to have a discussion with you at any time, but I'm not sure I see the need for a debate. I'd be happy to discuss the bible with you, though.

And to answer your question, yes, I do believe that if Jesus walked the earth in 2007 He'd heal some of the sick, as He did in the gospels. It's also important to note that when Jesus was alive and on earth some 2000 years ago, He didn't heal EVERYONE on earth. There were some he healed physically and mentally, and many He didn't. That was up to Him, and I believe it's still up to Him today. It's more important to me that He healed all of us in a far, far more lasting way. He closed an incredible rift between us and God, and made it so we'd be forgiven and made it so we could find peace with Him.

I'll take peace with Christ over any cure out there any day, and I say that as someone who'd like cures for a lot of things in this world, least of all my own issues. But your thread title sums it up well enough for me, and I thank you for it: "health is yours Storico". Yes. Spiritual, emotional health is mine, the kind of health I'm grateful most for, and I thank God for it.

Hi Storico.
Jesus healed all those who came to Him.
It is an advantage to not be wealthy or wise or good looking so that those we would seek to help do not mistake our peace and joy for that of this world.
Even our abilities can hinder God's work.

Of course all of these things can also be used for God's work but this is more unusual than the norm I think.

I would rather have nothing in this world and be ugly but have the love of God in my heart than to be rich and famous and lost or to not be in a position to help the lost.

God doesn't need our money or our abilities but just our hearts.

[Storico]

I agree, Lost. I'm glad He's got our hearts. :smile:

[Shadow Phoenix]

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

Now some may say "are but the most reliable manuscripts do not contain the last bit of Mark".
OK so they are saying that some manuscripts are not inspired, that God did not inspire the collators of the KJV?

That opens a very big can of worms for those that hold to the inerrancy and inspiration of the NT.
What else may be unreliable about the KJV and for that matter with the original manuscripts and maybe even the authors for that matter - can't have your cake and eat it too.

Bzzz. If you want to get into textual criticism, you're barking up the wrong tree and you're gonna be biting off a lot more than you can chew here.

The add-on to Mark is no big secret. EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT IT! It means not a thing to inerrancy. Inerrancy applies to the original documents.

Wanna try again?

[Lost]

Bzzz. If you want to get into textual criticism, you're barking up the wrong tree and you're gonna be biting off a lot more than you can chew here.

The add-on to Mark is no big secret. EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT IT! It means not a thing to inerrancy. Inerrancy applies to the original documents.

Wanna try again?

No - I stand by what I said.

[Shadow Phoenix]

No - I stand by what I said.

Oh. Then you're simply ignorant seeing as those aren't the facts and what I have stated is the historical truth.

If you wish to live in your delusions, carry on.

[RumTumTugger]

Chapter and verse please?

And it's not destructive? Please tell that to the former Word of Faith followers who saw their children die because they didn't give them medical care.

Or to those of us who have lost loved ones to illnesses. Who then have to hear that their love one was not faithful enough to be given Gods Grace.

[Storico]

Or to those of us who have lost loved ones to illnesses. Who then have to hear that their love one was not faithful enough to be given Gods Grace.

Or to those of us who are Christians and who will eventually lose our lives to illness. Personally, I'm rather amused that there's this belief going around that says if I just believe I'll get better hard enough, my illness will be suddenly taken away. It's like Dorothy with her ruby slippers tapping together, as she murmers "there's no place like home" to take her away from Oz. Something about it strikes me as being quite a bit like that. I can tell you right now that I've known many Christians who experienced illness and suffering all their lives, but who still thank God or who thanked God while they live/lived.

I'd like to bring forth the idea that, in fact, our physical bodies will USUALLY experience pain and illness -- that's how they work. In rare exceptions, individual humans will be healthy for a very long time, or they will recover from some kind of ailment.... but mostly, we've got the reality of our bodies to deal with. At the same time, many of us love God. So if anyone here believes that if we pray hard enough and believe fervently enough that we'll be physically healed, you've got a bit of a connundrum -- you'd either have to declare "your faith isn't strong enough" or "ooops, your faith IS strong... and you do love God... so looks like I was wrong, because you're still sick..." Or, you could find a middle ground, one that says our physical health is NOT the only thing that matters.

Our bodies are so impermanent. Some of us live seconds, others hours or days only, some get months, or weeks, or years or decades, but none of us know when our hour's going to come. Some of us live out our time in health, and others live it out in pain and illness. That's why I think the time to choose Christ is now. Spiritual health, feeling emotionally at peace and ready to face the hardest physical challenges of my life, that's more important to me right now than anything. I've got Christ with me. I'm ready and I'm thankful to Him. I've got family and friends and I'm delighted to find how much I can lean on them. They're all gifts from God, whether or not they admit it. They've been angels on earth, and some of them are here on this board.

My illness doesn't have to go away. God gave me, gave all His kids eternal life WITH Him -- I couldn't ask for or demand more than that, could I? Should I? I don't think so. I finally understand that God DOES heal, and He heals you starting with the inside. If my inside, my heart and my mind and my soul only ever are healed, that's healing enough.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Jesus healed all those who came to Him.

Ah, yes, that would include Paul -- remember him? -- too, right?

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

The (IOW: Bzzzt. Thanx for playing.) Curtmudgeon

[Lost]

Ah, yes, that would include Paul -- remember him? -- too, right?

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

The (IOW: Bzzzt. Thanx for playing.) Curtmudgeon

Are you trying to say that Paul came to Jesus while Jesus was alive or what? Otherwise your comment is not related to my statement which was a quote from the bible.

In the NT it clearly says many many times that all those who were sick that came to Jesus were healed - not one went away sick.

Another interesting thing about sicknesses back then is that quite often the were related to demon possession. Now to avoid the possibility that modern sicknesses are not often related to demon possession you have to say that modern sicknesses are totally different or that demons are now bound totally and not around these days - both difficult to substantiate.

For many the NT would read much nicer if Jesus had just been more moderate and merely healed the sick with magic hands and not gone to all that dramatic stuff of casting out demons.

[Lost]

Or to those of us who are Christians and who will eventually lose our lives to illness. Personally, I'm rather amused that there's this belief going around that says if I just believe I'll get better hard enough, my illness will be suddenly taken away. It's like Dorothy with her ruby slippers tapping together, as she murmers "there's no place like home" to take her away from Oz. Something about it strikes me as being quite a bit like that. I can tell you right now that I've known many Christians who experienced illness and suffering all their lives, but who still thank God or who thanked God while they live/lived.

I'd like to bring forth the idea that, in fact, our physical bodies will USUALLY experience pain and illness -- that's how they work. In rare exceptions, individual humans will be healthy for a very long time, or they will recover from some kind of ailment.... but mostly, we've got the reality of our bodies to deal with. At the same time, many of us love God. So if anyone here believes that if we pray hard enough and believe fervently enough that we'll be physically healed, you've got a bit of a connundrum -- you'd either have to declare "your faith isn't strong enough" or "ooops, your faith IS strong... and you do love God... so looks like I was wrong, because you're still sick..." Or, you could find a middle ground, one that says our physical health is NOT the only thing that matters.

Our bodies are so impermanent. Some of us live seconds, others hours or days only, some get months, or weeks, or years or decades, but none of us know when our hour's going to come. Some of us live out our time in health, and others live it out in pain and illness. That's why I think the time to choose Christ is now. Spiritual health, feeling emotionally at peace and ready to face the hardest physical challenges of my life, that's more important to me right now than anything. I've got Christ with me. I'm ready and I'm thankful to Him. I've got family and friends and I'm delighted to find how much I can lean on them. They're all gifts from God, whether or not they admit it. They've been angels on earth, and some of them are here on this board.

My illness doesn't have to go away. God gave me, gave all His kids eternal life WITH Him -- I couldn't ask for or demand more than that, could I? Should I? I don't think so. I finally understand that God DOES heal, and He heals you starting with the inside. If my inside, my heart and my mind and my soul only ever are healed, that's healing enough.

Fortunately you are mistaken.
I have seen what I have seen and experienced what I have experienced and I believe the Words of Jesus.
I can see that it is a waste of effort discussing these things here.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?"
Who were these people that actually were driving out demons and performing miracles? - not trying to - it says actually doing it - and "many" not just a few - and that was just the one's that were going to miss out on eternal life as well - doesn't even include those who were driving out demons and performing miracles in the name of Jesus and were going to eternal life.

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

That is because it is possible to stand on God's word and do these things without obeying God and therefore to be ultimately turned away from God - it doesn't take faithfulness, just faith.

Straight after Jesus says: "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

[Shadow Phoenix]

Are you trying to say that Paul came to Jesus while Jesus was alive or what? Otherwise your comment is not related to my statement which was a quote from the bible.

Yes. Since you quoted the Bible, that means your interpretation of the passage and your view of it in light of today is perfectly accurate. No way. Btw, surely you're not saying Jesus isn't alive now.

In the NT it clearly says many many times that all those who were sick that came to Jesus were healed - not one went away sick.

And Paul was left with the thorn in the flesh. Trophimus was left behind by Paul sick.

They just didn't have faith. Right?

Another interesting thing about sicknesses back then is that quite often the were related to demon possession. Now to avoid the possibility that modern sicknesses are not often related to demon possession you have to say that modern sicknesses are totally different or that demons are now bound totally and not around these days - both difficult to substantiate.

Or you can say that some were related to demon possession and some were not. They did have medicine back then also. You know that. Right?

For many the NT would read much nicer if Jesus had just been more moderate and merely healed the sick with magic hands and not gone to all that dramatic stuff of casting out demons.

Because since we all disagree with Lost on his idea that Christians should not have sickness, we obviously want to water down the Bible.

Fortunately you are mistaken.
I have seen what I have seen and experienced what I have experienced and I believe the Words of Jesus.
I can see that it is a waste of effort discussing these things here.

Get this. No one is saying God can't heal the sick or he won't. We're saying it's not a guarantee. If it was, then Trophimus and Paul make no sense.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?"
Who were these people that actually were driving out demons and performing miracles? - not trying to - it says actually doing it - and "many" not just a few - and that was just the one's that were going to miss out on eternal life as well - doesn't even include those who were driving out demons and performing miracles in the name of Jesus and were going to eternal life.

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Now this just sickens me. Because we disagree, now our faith is in jeopardy. I don't care for veiled threats and if that message is meant as a warning to Storico, I definitely don't care for it. I have no desire to deny the words of Christ. I have a desire though to deny your misuse which is actually abuse of them.

That is because it is possible to stand on God's word and do these things without obeying God and therefore to be ultimately turned away from God - it doesn't take faithfulness, just faith.

Care to tell the difference between the two?

Straight after Jesus says: "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

In the land of Uz there lived a man named Job.

Hey. As long as we're going to quote irrelevant passages on the subject of healing, I thought I'd join in.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Are you trying to say that Paul came to Jesus while Jesus was alive or what? Otherwise your comment is not related to my statement which was a quote from the bible.

So you now admit that your claim that Jesus healed everyone who came to Him, means nothing today since we are not capable of approaching Him in the flesh?

According to what you've just posted, your earlier claim that Storico could claim health from Jesus because He healed everyone is just nonsense, unless she could contact Him in the flesh.

In the NT it clearly says many many times that all those who were sick that came to Jesus were healed - not one went away sick.

In John 5, Jesus goes to the Pool of Bethesda, where there were so many sick people trying to jump into the pool at the appropriate moment, that one man couldn't get near; we know this because he complains about this very fact. Jesus healed only that one man, and totally ignored every other sick person sitting and lying around the pool.

Another interesting thing about sicknesses back then is that quite often the were related to demon possession. Now to avoid the possibility that modern sicknesses are not often related to demon possession you have to say that modern sicknesses are totally different or that demons are now bound totally and not around these days - both difficult to substantiate.

Not nearly as difficult to substantiate as your claim that sicknesses in Jesus' day were "quite often ... related to demon possession." The Gospel accounts never confuse the two; when Jesus does a healing, He heals; when He casts out demons, it says He casts out demons. Never does Jesus say to a man blind from birth, or lame from birth, or a leper, or a woman with a 12-year hemmorhage, "Demon, leave that person!" Always, He draws a clear distinction between the two.

The (you might want to learn to read only what is written, without importing your own interpretations) Curtmudgeon

[Lost]

Yes. Since you quoted the Bible, that means your interpretation of the passage and your view of it in light of today is perfectly accurate. No way. Btw, surely you're not saying Jesus isn't alive now.



And Paul was left with the thorn in the flesh. Trophimus was left behind by Paul sick.

They just didn't have faith. Right?



Or you can say that some were related to demon possession and some were not. They did have medicine back then also. You know that. Right?



Because since we all disagree with Lost on his idea that Christians should not have sickness, we obviously want to water down the Bible.



Get this. No one is saying God can't heal the sick or he won't. We're saying it's not a guarantee. If it was, then Trophimus and Paul make no sense.



Now this just sickens me. Because we disagree, now our faith is in jeopardy. I don't care for veiled threats and if that message is meant as a warning to Storico, I definitely don't care for it. I have no desire to deny the words of Christ. I have a desire though to deny your misuse which is actually abuse of them.



Care to tell the difference between the two?



In the land of Uz there lived a man named Job.

Hey. As long as we're going to quote irrelevant passages on the subject of healing, I thought I'd join in.

hmm so much hate?

[Lizard]

This thread has been closed