what G-d wants

[staylor2233]

I'm tired of playing around here . I'd like some real thought about this . Tell me , you people , how it is that G-d can want anything . Think befoire you answer so as not to give me the same ole same ole. To want suggests an unknown and there is no other way around it . How do we atribute an unknown to G-d ?????????????????

[Shadow Phoenix]

I'm tired of playing around here . I'd like some real thought about this . Tell me , you people , how it is that G-d can want anything . Think befoire you answer so as not to give me the same ole same ole. To want suggests an unknown and there is no other way around it . How do we atribute an unknown to G-d ?????????????????

Ever been in love? When you are in love, you want not only the joy of the beloved, but them as well. The more you know them, the more you love them and the more you want that for them.

The best good for us is to be who we are in Christ and to exalt in the truth in love. God wants us to reflect him. He wants us to be like him but to be ourselves too.

[staylor2233]

I do apreciate the meaning of what yo say , but it is a simple question who's answer is not so simple . I'm simply asking how it is that we can say that G-d wants a thing . Sure , I know what it is like to love and want the love in return . Why must we continuosly use our language . G-d can not ( as I bekieve ) WANT anything .How can we re-word ourselves for a greater understading

Sincerly , Stu

[Shadow Phoenix]

I do apreciate the meaning of what yo say , but it is a simple question who's answer is not so simple . I'm simply asking how it is that we can say that G-d wants a thing . Sure , I know what it is like to love and want the love in return . Why must we continuosly use our language . G-d can not ( as I bekieve ) WANT anything .How can we re-word ourselves for a greater understading

Sincerly , Stu

God cannot want? How come? If you know something, you cannot want it? I see no reason to say that?

And why say "our language?" Doesn't the Bible speak of our relationships as mirroring his? Do we not speak of the Father from whom all fatherhood comes? Would not he be the love from whom all true love comes? Does not true love involve want?

It seems you are stuck on God not being able to want but you have given no reason for thinking such a view is accurate.

[staylor2233]

I feel my question is a good one . You ask why God cannot want . Is there anything that he does not know ?

[Shadow Phoenix]

I feel my question is a good one . You ask why God cannot want . Is there anything that he does not know ?

No. What that has to do with God wanting, I do not know.

[Trout]

Because want implies lack, Nick.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Because want implies lack, Nick.

Yes, but lack does not imply a lack of knowledge on God's part. I do not see any problem with Christ saying "How I longed to gather you in my arms, but you were not willing."

[staylor2233]

I simply mean that I do not see how an unknown can be applied to God . What is known in a whant ? You can't see where I'm coming from ??

[Shadow Phoenix]

I simply mean that I do not see how an unknown can be applied to God . What is known in a whant ? You can't see where I'm coming from ??

No. I do see though how there is much unknown about GOd, and I am thankful that there is. What is known to God though? Everything is. I honestly don't see where exactly you are coming from.

[staylor2233]

O.K . Yes , for us there is unkown about God , as it shoud be , but to say that God wants us to .........anything, implies that He does not know the outcome of our decision , which of course is not right . So why do we not re phrase what we say ?

[staylor2233]

Eactly !

[staylor2233]

I cant spell or type . I meant " exactly "

[{Tim}]

Thread moved to Apologetics.

staylor2233, you can edit your posts up to 45 minutes after you post them (click where it says "options" at the bottom). That's generally preferred to doing a "double post" to correct yourself. Checking out the "quote" tag could also help make your posts clearer. :wink:

[Shadow Phoenix]

O.K . Yes , for us there is unkown about God , as it shoud be , but to say that God wants us to .........anything, implies that He does not know the outcome of our decision , which of course is not right . So why do we not re phrase what we say ?

I could see how you would think that, but I'm not sure if we can speak in such a way. I don't believe God creates our decisions. God has the decisions he would have liked us to make but he does not make them for us. He knows many times that we will not make the decisions that we ough to make. He desires that we do not sin, but he knows that we will.

I think there is a strong and mysterious dynamic and that Scripture does affirm both. I prefer to just see it as the wonder of the God I serve. I see him as wanting and knowing all. I do not call it contradiction. I call it limitation on my understanding.

[staylor2233]

Yes , But when do we try to surpass our understanding , At least with the words that we use? I do not know why I can not speak in such a way if I can think it . To suggest that God would have liked to do anything seems the contradiction . Please don't shrugg me off , I'm listening

[staylor2233]

Thank you Tim , I'm not very good with this stuff , but the folks here are sharp as tacks and I'v noone else to talk to . he staff scolded me and I'm not sure why , but I'm sure I did something wrong

[staylor2233]

Hey , I didn't want to bother anyone about this . You say what you will but to want implies an unknown and I just wanted some insight as to when we get off the milk and onto the meat . Thank you for your replies .

[nickcopernicus]

Hey , I didn't want to bother anyone about this . You say what you will but to want implies an unknown and I just wanted some insight as to when we get off the milk and onto the meat . Thank you for your replies .

NICK:

Sorry, but your thread got moved to the place where skeptics like me give your question a go.
In anycase, to say that your god "wants" something does not make much sense. Apparently "thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" could alude to what your god wills to happen, does. So either there are times when your god's will "is not done on earth--- or somewhere else" or your god could not possibly "want" anything.

cheers,

Nick

[Zeluvia]

why did you move this poor innocent to the viper pit? =(

[shunyadragon]

Ever been in love? When you are in love, you want not only the joy of the beloved, but them as well. The more you know them, the more you love them and the more you want that for them.

The best good for us is to be who we are in Christ and to exalt in the truth in love. God wants us to reflect him. He wants us to be like him but to be ourselves too.

No, God does not want anything.

[staylor2233]

Thanks , you and I are on the same page , almost . I believe , or I should say that I choose to believe in a creator . The written words that tell the storiesare a different matter . People say that God is ALL knowing , but in the same sentence say that He "wants" this or that . I can't seem to get good conversation on it . If I can't get it here , where ?

[staylor2233]

I agree . Thank you . Why is it so hard for folks o see that a "want "implies an unknown ?

[staylor2233]

Did I get set aside?

[shunyadragon]

I agree . Thank you . Why is it so hard for folks o see that a "want "implies an unknown ?

In many ways it implies more, it implies a desire for something one does not have.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm moving this to a more suitable form.

[Tladatsi]

I'm simply asking how it is that we can say that G-d wants a thing . Why must we continuously use our language.

What choice do we have, we can only use the language that we have. If our language is insufficient to describe God in some way, which would hardly be surprising, we simply must make do with what we have.

G-d can not ( as I believe ) WANT anything .How can we re-word ourselves for a greater understanding

Sincerely , Stu

Why should God not be able to want something? Yahweh wanted Adam and Eve to remain ignorant of the difference between good and evil in Genesis 3 (He did not get what He wanted here, at least not for long). Yahweh wanted to destroy all life on Earth in Genesis 6 (He did get what He wanted here). The Pentateuch is full of the things Yahweh wanted His followers to do or not do (613 mitzvot to name a few).

Psalms 68:16, 118:7, and 140:8 all describe what Yahweh wants or desires, as does Ez 24:21. The Bible seems clear that Yahweh does in want certain things and does not want others.

[Tladatsi]

I agree . Thank you . Why is it so hard for folks o see that a "want "implies an unknown ?

1) I don't see that "want" implies an "unknown", generally the opposite would be true I should think. Usually when one wants, there is a specific thing that is the object of one's desires (e.g. an apple). Sometimes that is not true, at least for humans, we sometimes have desires that we cannot quite name. I cannot think of a single case the Bible where Yahweh was not completely clear on exactly what it is He wanted.

2) Even supposing you were correct that somehow "want" always implies an "unknown", what is the problem with that? In the Bible Yahweh has been caught off-guard on more than one occasion by things He did not know. For example, Yahweh did not know that Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the TOKOGAE or even where they were or even that they were hiding. He was certainly surprised when He found out Cain killed Abel. Yahweh repented having created mankind in Gen 6:6, He had not expected that the "sons of God" would marry the "daughters of men" and produce a race of giants.

Well that is what the Bible says anyway.

[staylor2233]

Thanks for the feedback . "Want "most certainly applies an unknown . Sure , I may know the taste of an apple but there is no certainty that I will get the apple to my mouth . Lets not take the smallest thing for granted . The future is not known to us . ( By the way, in an earlier post I meant to ask " why must we continuously MISUSE our language . ) My reply to you saying " 2) Even supposing you were correct that somehow "want" always implies an "unknown", what is the problem with that?" Well , I simply cannot apply an unknown to God . So , for me , this use of language is confusing. Yes , I understand that for teaching purposes liberties must be taken . What I want to know is at what point do we use our language more correctly when describing this "wanting " ? If there is no other way to teach than to apply the word " want " as an atribute of God , so be it . Want implies an unkown and until I can see it otherwise , my question stands.
Sincearly , Stu
Oh yeah , My use of our language is pittyfull at best So I'm really not trying to knit-pick with Websters and the rest

[barnasha]

Yes , But when do we try to surpass our understanding , At least with the words that we use? I do not know why I can not speak in such a way if I can think it . To suggest that God would have liked to do anything seems the contradiction . Please don't shrugg me off , I'm listening

well, how does one even begin to contemplate what G-d (Abraham's god) "wants" without typifying it as some sort of human-like entity that sits within the scope of time and space; as something that 'thinks' ?

That would be as if there is a future or past, which are properties of the universe G-d created/creates, to which surely G-d is not a subject.

Also there is the problem of 'wanting' as if the thing that wants does not have the power to bring something about. Truly, if G-d wills a thing to be, it is decreed to be and it is, there is no transitory period of 'wanting', in that sense.

we can view the will of God and our free will to coincide with it as "G-d wanting us to do such-and-such", though.

[staylor2233]

How do we begin ? I suppose as I have , By asking . It sems so trivial a thing and not one worth pondering but I do it just the same .Doesn't it seem strange that this typifying of G-d as you have stated be so casual and permanent within so many discussions? To stab at humor and keep it light , "where's the beef " . Your response is not so typical . There can be no transitory period as you say , if one believe what they claim , that G-d is all knowing . I do believe this and it has helped me to think of this "want " thing . One more thing , if you wish , please explain your last statement because therein lies the heart of this beast

[Tladatsi]

Thanks for the feedback . "Want "most certainly applies an unknown . Sure , I may know the taste of an apple but there is no certainty that I will get the apple to my mouth . Lets not take the smallest thing for granted . The future is not known to us.

I think you are confusing two very different things, wanting something and actually getting what is wanted. I certainly agree that there is a huge unknown between the two but the OP merely asked about the "want" half of that equation. I will stand by my point that wanting (as opposed to getting) does not at all imply any unknown.

Well , I simply cannot apply an unknown to God . So , for me , this use of language is confusing. Yes , I understand that for teaching purposes liberties must be taken . What I want to know is at what point do we use our language more correctly when describing this "wanting " ? If there is no other way to teach than to apply the word " want " as an atribute of God , so be it . Want implies an unkown and until I can see it otherwise , my question stands.
Sincearly , Stu

Well, I see your point. Now I don't know if you give any creadance to the BIble or not but if one does, the BIble makes it quite clear that Yahweh does indeed want some things and does not want others. To your point, it is true that Yahweh does not always get what He wants but that is a separate issue. Moreover, it seems very clear that Yahweh has very clear and specific ideas about what He wants. I cited several passages in the BIble where this is made clear.

[staylor2233]

Thank you for your thoughts , but i am puzzled by what you say . How is it that G-d does not get what he wants ( all the time ) Surely he is in complete and total control of his plan , beyond our ability to understand . I believe his plan is in motion as he designed it and it is our inability to see the perfection in it all , even in the midst of death and terror . He can not ( as I believe ) not recieve what we veiw as him wanting .I'm listenning so , when you can , call back . Mine are not deaf ears .

[Tladatsi]

Thank you for your thoughts , but i am puzzled by what you say . How is it that G-d does not get what he wants ( all the time ) Surely he is in complete and total control of his plan , beyond our ability to understand . I believe his plan is in motion as he designed it and it is our inability to see the perfection in it all , even in the midst of death and terror . He can not ( as I believe ) not recieve what we veiw as him wanting .I'm listenning so , when you can , call back . Mine are not deaf ears .

Well I merely report what the Bible says. Yahweh wanted Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of the TOKOGAE but they did. I feel pretty confident that Yahweh did not want Cain to kill Abel but that is just what happened. Yahweh did not want the His sons (beni Elohim) to marry the daughters of men but they did and Yahweh had to destroy all life on Earth with a flood fix that thing which He did not want. Yahweh wanted the children of Israel to obey all of His commandments (all 613) but they did not. There are several places where Yahweh wants justice rather sacrifices and fairness for the poor but sees only their oppression by the rich. The Tanakh is a virtual laundry list of things Yahweh wanted but did not get. The God of the OT is a unsatisfied God, a God who did not get what He wanted.

[staylor2233]

I don't question the janguage that is used . I read what you read . I simlply feel that our unerstanding is meant to grow beyond the manner in which a language attempts to explain what cannot be totally grasped . I think it can be a great tool in our growth if we use the words that are written as a foundation for deeper spiritual understanding . We all wered given a unique eyesight for the world around us and all very well may be equal , if the truth of what we see is at our hearts . For me , it has been a wonderfull few years contemplating this seemingly trivial issue . For me , there is no "want ' in G-ds plan . What we interprate as G-d wanting seems mearly a stepping stone to the challenge of growing . For me , G-d exists on all plains of existance in all spaces in all of time at once . His plan is perfect and this is a mystery to me .He can not "want " . It is us that put this want to him to help us grow . All of your examples can be re-worded to alieviate the "want" and not lose the value of the story . I'm not looking for a "laundry list" here , or a "report ". I'm looking for YOUR thoughts
sincerely , Stu

[Soyeong]

I think the problem comes in having mutually exclusive wants. For example, someone might want to stay home instead of going to work today. However, they might want to be out of debt or to pay rent more than the want to stay home. If they go to work, they are doing something they want to do (gain money), but at the same time with the cost that they are allowing something they don't want to happen (going to work instead of staying home). That goes hand in hand with the problem of wanting something that is the end result of a process. For example, I want a muscular body, but that means I have to exercise regularly, which is something I don't particularly want to do.

I think God wants us to love Him, but for whatever reason, He wanted more than that for us to go through a processes called Life, where we could choose to love Him at the cost that some would choose to reject Him.

[staylor2233]

Somehow , I think you are right , simply because it feels right . Then , in an instant, I feel it is also true that He knew the hour , the very moment that we truly love him . That He always new that hour even before there was an hour . Naturaly what comes next is my question : "could he have wanted what he already created , what he already knew , what he already had ? " On na lnear time frame it's simple . I was created in 1966 , or the vessal that carries my soul , what have you , but , was that when I was really created . That moment was known as are all other moments . In this context i feel there can be no "want " , only what is known . Yet , I feel that G-d wants my love , just the same . I don't know what conversation I hope to have here , anyway . I like it though .

[Tladatsi]

I don't question the janguage that is used . I read what you read . I simlply feel that our unerstanding is meant to grow beyond the manner in which a language attempts to explain what cannot be totally grasped . I think it can be a great tool in our growth if we use the words that are written as a foundation for deeper spiritual understanding . We all wered given a unique eyesight for the world around us and all very well may be equal , if the truth of what we see is at our hearts . For me , it has been a wonderfull few years contemplating this seemingly trivial issue . For me , there is no "want ' in G-ds plan . What we interprate as G-d wanting seems mearly a stepping stone to the challenge of growing . For me , G-d exists on all plains of existance in all spaces in all of time at once . His plan is perfect and this is a mystery to me .He can not "want " . It is us that put this want to him to help us grow . All of your examples can be re-worded to alieviate the "want" and not lose the value of the story . I'm not looking for a "laundry list" here , or a "report ". I'm looking for YOUR thoughts
sincerely , Stu

The OP suggested that to want something automatically implies an "unknown" and that Yahweh cannot "want" because Yahweh cannot not know something. My only point is that I think you are mistaken, wanting something does not automatically mean some "unknown" so Yahweh can want somethings and not others. I merely cite the Bible as evidence supporting this logic.

You seem troubled with the idea that Yahweh might not get what He wants, an entirely different question. Suffice it so say, the Bible is full of evidence that this is the case. Is this what you really want to discuss?

[Tladatsi]

I think God wants us to love Him, but for whatever reason, He wanted more than that for us to go through a processes called Life, where we could choose to love Him at the cost that some would choose to reject Him.

Then He would not get what He wants.

[staylor2233]

When someone tells me that I am mistaken about a " want " implying an unknown , I challenge them to give me just one example when it does not . By it's very definition in any dictionary It most definately does . Why do we apply this word to G-d ?( other than to help teach beginners ) Yes , this is what I enjoy discussing but cannot seem to carry the conversation through with someone that decides for themselves just what to take litteraly or sybolicaly from what they read and then " cite " me to no end .

[Tladatsi]

When someone tells me that I am mistaken about a " want " implying an unknown , I challenge them to give me just one example when it does not . By it's very definition in any dictionary It most definately does . Why do we apply this word to G-d ?( other than to help teach beginners ) Yes , this is what I enjoy discussing but cannot seem to carry the conversation through with someone that decides for themselves just what to take litteraly or sybolicaly from what they read and then " cite " me to no end .

I want an apple. I know what an apple is, I know where to get one, I know why I want it, and what I will do with it. There is nothing unknown implied by my wanting an apple. (As noted earlier it is an entirely different issue whether I ever actually get an apple. Getting and wanting are two very different ideas.)

Here is what the American Heritage Dictionary says about want, you will note nothing about anything being "unknown".



v. want·ed, want·ing, wants

v. tr.

1.
1. To desire greatly; wish for: They want to leave. She wants a glass of water. See Synonyms at desire.
2. To desire (someone to do something): I want you to clean your room.
3. To request the presence or assistance of: You are wanted by your office.
4. To seek with intent to capture: The fugitive is wanted by the police.
2.
1. To request the presence or assistance of: You are wanted by your office.
2. To seek with intent to capture: The fugitive is wanted by the police.
3. To have an inclination toward; like: Say what you want, but be tactful.
4. Informal To be obliged (to do something): You want to be careful on the ice.
5. To be without; lack. See Synonyms at lack.
6. To be in need of; require: "'Your hair wants cutting,' said the Hatter" (Lewis Carroll).


v. intr.

1. To have need: wants for nothing.
2. To be destitute or needy.
3. To be disposed; wish: Call me daily if you want.

n.

1. The condition or quality of lacking something usual or necessary: stayed home for want of anything better to do.
2. Pressing need; destitution: lives in want.
3. Something desired: a person of few wants and needs.
4. A defect of character; a fault.

So it is not some unique or idiosyncratic reading of the word want that does not include the notion of "unknown".

[staylor2233]

Based on what you've just given me I don't understand how you can stll say that the notion of an unkown is not in a want . To want an apple is not an unkown . I know that I want to eat it but do not know that I will . This will sound foolish but I may have a brain anurism ( sorry , I can not spell well ) as I take the first bite , or as I reach to grab it . Bottom line , I do not know for certain that I will have it . All of these definitions support my position . To desire ? Do you desire the apple before or after you eat it ? What do you want that you already have ? You may want to keep it , but you don't want it because you already have it . You say that getting and wanting are two different things . Of course they are . I know that I want but don't know that I 'll get .

[Tladatsi]

Once more, wanting is different from having or getting. I want world peace. I know for a fact I will never get it. I want to have existed. I know I have. There is no unknown here. Simply because wanting does not guarantee getting but demand some unknown.

It is like saying "going" implies an unknown because it is known if the destination was ever reached. Does that mean God cannot go? What about saying? That someone (including God) might say something with the intent that someone else might hear it, it does not mean that anyone does (God has this problem throughout the Bible). Does that mean God cannot "say" something because it is unknown whether anyone will hear Him?

Every verb you can think of has an unknown in that sense which means God can do nothing.

Based on what you've just given me I don't understand how you can stll say that the notion of an unkown is not in a want . To want an apple is not an unkown . I know that I want to eat it but do not know that I will . This will sound foolish but I may have a brain anurism ( sorry , I can not spell well ) as I take the first bite , or as I reach to grab it . Bottom line , I do not know for certain that I will have it . All of these definitions support my position . To desire ? Do you desire the apple before or after you eat it ? What do you want that you already have ? You may want to keep it , but you don't want it because you already have it . You say that getting and wanting are two different things . Of course they are . I know that I want but don't know that I 'll get .

[staylor2233]

O.K. I may want to be young again ( although I don't ) I know that I will not be . There is no unknown in that want , is there . Thanks , I'll think on that . You say " I want to have existed. I know I have. There is no unknown here . " I don't get this one . I never wanted to exist but want to remain existing . I suppose there is an unknown to verbs . You say , "Does that mean God cannot go? " I feel that god is everywhere in all spaces in all dementions in all times , so where can he go that he is not already ? You mention intentions , well , what is an intention ? probably shouldn't go there . As for me not hearing G-ds messages , well , if I don't then I was not meant to at that time , I suppose . You've given me some food for thought . I'm really starting to like this web stuff .