what is the point of un ending torment

[shadowman]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

[maudman]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

It's not God that is tormenting!

The torment is what you will be doing to yourself, Not God.

It is what will happen when certain People come to grips with what they were and had did. The second death is what causes it. Those of the second death will have used the name of CHrist to sin against God. They won't be able to forgive themselves.

Their Guilt will cause their torment.

NO man Put his hand to the Plow and looks Back is fit for the Kingdom of God.

MDN

[shadowman]

Why have a oint of no return? why not let people repent once they realize their mistake?

Does god still love people in hell?

are any of his children in hell?

[rstrats]

maudman,

re: “He that is convinced against his will is of the same Opinion still.”


That seems like a contradictory statement. If a person still has the same opinion about something, then he hasn’t been convinced otherwise.

Agnostics and atheists may not post in this forum unless granted prior permission.

[Bill the Cat]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

Shadowmaster, my good friend! Have you read JP Holding's article on hell as eternal shame?

http://www.tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/hello.html

[Zguy28]

to make god happy?

who benefits?We know God is just, giving the due penalty for sin.

As far as "Why torment instead of annihilation?" I don't know the reasoning to be honest. I just know that Christ said "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."(Matt 25:46)

Why don't you ask in prayer if Scripture does not reveal the reason to you? :pray:

[maudman]

maudman,

re: “He that is convinced against his will is of the same Opinion still.”


That seems like a contradictory statement. If a person still has the same opinion about something, then he hasn’t been convinced otherwise.

It's a form of denial, It is a derivative of false Pride and a truth. It's what at times People refuse to believe about themselves. """Deception""' Being false (decieved) while "'refusing"" to believe otherwise; for whatever reason (Preception). """"We lie to ourselves with the truth"".

Its the diference between one who seeks the ""truth of things for the sake of God"" and one who seeks to ""justify himself"" with what truth he has. One is capable of Growth the other damnation.


MDN

[shadowman]

We know God is just, giving the due penalty for sin.

As far as "Why torment instead of annihilation?" I don't know the reasoning to be honest. I just know that Christ said "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."(Matt 25:46)

Why don't you ask in prayer if Scripture does not reveal the reason to you? :pray:

how is eternal torment of any kind, fire, darkness, knives, melted led, eternal shame and contempt, basically how is human suffering just?

who benefits from it?

if we did this to people wouldnt it be a sin?

do only gods children go to heaven?

I understand that people who accept the gospel are gods children, but if they dont, they are not?

so before hearing the gospel are poeple potentially gods children?

are people in hell pure evil? are all humans pure evil without gods help...

[shadowman]

It's not God that is tormenting!

The torment is what you will be doing to yourself, Not God.

It is what will happen when certain People come to grips with what they were and had did. The second death is what causes it. Those of the second death will have used the name of CHrist to sin against God. They won't be able to forgive themselves.

Their Guilt will cause their torment.

NO man Put his hand to the Plow and looks Back is fit for the Kingdom of God.

MDN

why cant they be forgiven, they made a mistake.... why wont god forgive the mistake?

why is death set up as a point of no return? why cant god present people with the truth in a more believable fashion? why have the requirements for salvation sit upon the beliefs that fallible and fickle and imperfect humans hold in their heads?

what if one day I feel like a christian and another day I feel like Ive just bee brainwashed.

does god accept this skeptical approach?

can it be that god is so mechanical that after everything we humans go through he boils our existence down to a checklist of belief in jesus?

[Genesius]

In my opinion, I don't think it has anything to do with God, really. There is a place that is reserved for the 'wicked' and those who do not CHOOSE to repent. I'm of the mindset that people will have all the chances possible to turn to God and "goodness", but God can not make them choose to love him.

Why is there a place of eternal punishment? What else would you call a place devoid of God in every sense? It is a place reserved for angels as well as humans, whether or not all creatures who are disobedient become immortal is debatable IMO.

[maudman]

why cant they be forgiven, they made a mistake.... why wont god forgive the mistake?

why is death set up as a point of no return? why cant god present people with the truth in a more believable fashion? why have the requirements for salvation sit upon the beliefs that fallible and fickle and imperfect humans hold in their heads?

what if one day I feel like a christian and another day I feel like Ive just bee brainwashed.

does god accept this skeptical approach?

can it be that god is so mechanical that after everything we humans go through he boils our existence down to a checklist of belief in jesus?

Hey Shadowman

I think more in the Lines of Genesius, God doesn't want to do any of those things to People.

The whole Idea of a God that acts like us is out of sink. But if God burns up the things that he hates. I'm not talking people here, but things as in the "way" of. That way of being. What will be left of those that were that way?

The way I look at it is God is going to burnup Ideaology or false Ideas that drove certain people. And as People see God burn things that they spent there entire life doing or believing and they became what they believed. ( And It doesn't matter about any false Ideas they have about themselves or their intentions) They will be rendered to whatever is left. And if what is left is nothing? I think that is the whole Point. That which was once a way of life is no more and if you spent your life living that way your conscience will be rendered to nothing.

I'm not talking about people who aren't christian either. MOst the real fire is comming on those that are decieved and lead others astray. God knows the real evil doers and their Hearts.


MDN

[Lost]

It's not God that is tormenting!

The torment is what you will be doing to yourself, Not God.

It is what will happen when certain People come to grips with what they were and had did. The second death is what causes it. Those of the second death will have used the name of CHrist to sin against God. They won't be able to forgive themselves.

Their Guilt will cause their torment.

NO man Put his hand to the Plow and looks Back is fit for the Kingdom of God.

MDN

That is a heartless thing to say. God also forgives as many times as it takes to teach a person to obey Him - Show some love mate.
We all look back after putting our hand to the plow - well at least I have and I am not going to be bullied into thinking I am the only one :teeth:
He who has been forgiven little loves little.

[Lost]

Hey Shadowman

I think more in the Lines of Genesius, God doesn't want to do any of those things to People.

The whole Idea of a God that acts like us is out of sink. But if God burns up the things that he hates. I'm not talking people here, but things as in the "way" of. That way of being. What will be left of those that were that way?

The way I look at it is God is going to burnup Ideaology or false Ideas that drove certain people. And as People see God burn things that they spent there entire life doing or believing and they became what they believed. ( And It doesn't matter about any false Ideas they have about themselves or their intentions) They will be rendered to whatever is left. And if what is left is nothing? I think that is the whole Point. That which was once a way of life is no more and if you spent your life living that way your conscience will be rendered to nothing.

I'm not talking about people who aren't christian either. MOst the real fire is comming on those that are decieved and lead others astray. God knows the real evil doers and their Hearts.


MDN

I agree.
Better to be a sheep than a leader who is leading others astray.
Having said that, it is best for the sheep to pray for their leaders.

[maudman]

That is a heartless thing to say. God also forgives as many times as it takes to teach a person to obey Him - Show some love mate.
We all look back after putting our hand to the plow - well at least I have and I am not going to be bullied into thinking I am the only one :teeth:
He who has been forgiven little loves little.

Hello Lost

Yeah, I no it seems heartless, but I think you can see in my following post a little more clarification. Helps to type in bites rather than meals and makes it easier to respond. There are sins more deadly to the spirit than others. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach the damnation of the world believe it or not.

You don’t have to go anywhere to find yourself in hell. Hell like the kingdom of heaven it can and does exist on earth. When we look at the suffering of others in this world, many exist in a state or place of hell, and “”at no fault of their own””. Their state of existence is because others have made it that way for them and that to me is the real evil. Understanding what causes these things leads to a lot of debate.

Yes many will love God perportionally for the dept that he has forgiven. The question I always ask myself is the importance of when that takes place. I think personally that while on earth those that repent will recieve the greatest reward while those in the end judgements will not fair as well. I think it has to do with how the Father will justify. As Christ responded to the Apostle; Being seated at his right hand or left really isn't for him to decide but the Fathers'.





Peace and Godbless

MDN

[Lost]

Hello Lost

Yeah, I no it seems heartless, but I think you can see in my following post a little more clarification. Helps to type in bites rather than meals and makes it easier to respond. There are sins more deadly to the spirit than others. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach the damnation of the world believe it or not.

You don’t have to go anywhere to find yourself in hell. Hell like the kingdom of heaven it can and does exist on earth. When we look at the suffering of others in this world, many exist in a state or place of hell, and “”at no fault of their own””. Their state of existence is because others have made it that way for them and that to me is the real evil. Understanding what causes these things leads to a lot of debate.

Yes many will love God perportionally for the dept that he has forgiven. The question I always ask myself is the importance of when that takes place. I think personally that while on earth those that repent will recieve the greatest reward while those in the end judgements will not fair as well. I think it has to do with how the Father will justify. As Christ responded to the Apostle; Being seated at his right hand or left really isn't for him to decide but the Fathers'.





Peace and Godbless

MDN

that is true.

[Whipartist]

why cant they be forgiven, they made a mistake.... why wont god forgive the mistake?

Sin is not just a mistake. It is wrong. It is evil, diabolical, horrible, reprehensible. Did Hitler make a mistake when He slaughtered the Jews mercilessly? Do those who traffic and hold women and children in bondage to prostitution merely make mistakes? How about those who torture Christians for their faith by lighting them on fire and slaughtering them with machetes?

They are doing evil and unless they repent and change their ways, from hate to love, they should face justice. They are evil and nothing can change them, not even hell. That's why they deserve it. If they did not recognize the value of the lives they destoryed and of their own life, then their punishment would be nill anyway. Pain has a way of making one face what he is. If a person hates pain, then why inflict it mercilessly? A gun wouldn't be a gun if it couldn't kill. And a human life isn't valuable unless when it is devalued, severe consequences ensue. You can't play with fire without getting burned. If you could, it wouldn't be fire. This is life and every day we live in it as an amazing privelege.

why is death set up as a point of no return?

The grave is the natural place for judgment. When you're dead, your activity under the sun has ceased and thus any chance for reformation. Hell isn't life, it's death. Why would there be a chance for reformation in a place in which choices are empty and void? Death is stillness and eternal. Once a person dies, what they were in this life is set in stone and cannot be undone. They chose it, they lived with it, now they must die with it. Anyone can do good in his life. It's an obviously important thing to do. Do onto others as you would have them do to you.

why cant god present people with the truth in a more believable fashion?

The truth is everywhere. The stones cry it out. It's so obvious that it can't be missed. It's repressed by humanity and they've all decided to do it together as a culture. It's not cool to not do wrong with other people. It makes them feel judged. Oh well, I choose to live in reality instead of pretending that my enemy deserves the evil I want to do to him.

why have the requirements for salvation sit upon the beliefs that fallible and fickle and imperfect humans hold in their heads?

Your question is entirely valid but irrelevant as far as salvation is concerned. Many people think that salvation comes down to beliefs, but it does not. Salvation comes down to worshipping the true God and obeying Him in doing righteous deeds. How you live is going to determine your eternal destiny. Not what you believe in your head.

what if one day I feel like a christian and another day I feel like Ive just bee brainwashed.

does god accept this skeptical approach?

Whatever you feel is irrelevant. God requires faithfulness, but is still there to forgive even after failure. Whatever you feel, keep on following God and don't give up. He's there, I promise. You probably have been brainwashed. We all face it daily. Prayerfully study the Bible for help.

can it be that god is so mechanical that after everything we humans go through he boils our existence down to a checklist of belief in jesus?

Absolutely not. Whether you believe in Jesus or not is only part of the question. What it all boils down to is how you live in response to having heard about Jesus. And if you hadn't heard about Him, it still boils down to how you live. One day we will all be called to account for how we've treated our fellow men.

Heaven and hell are not based on realities as arbitrary as a person's beliefs. They are based on how a person lives.

I hope that helps.

[shadowman]

how do you know that it is dependant on how we live. what if I live as good as I can, but think "eh that jesus thing doesnt make enough sense, Ill go with taoism or something like that?"

what if I started out praying to jesus, but in my later years I lose faith?

[M.Talkingsworth]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

Hi Shadowman,

Out of curiosity, do you work for Shadowmaster? Just a little t-web joke there...


So the idea of lots of people, most actually according to Jesus (or so it would seem) spending the rest of forever in unending torment makes you a little squeamish, does it? Well, good, that means you are normal. It makes me pretty sick to think about it too. Also, as you seem to be hinting at, it really does not seem to make too much sense. Well, it does not make sense to me either. It is possible to make a defense for annihilationism based on reasoning from scripture. The idea is not without its problems, but I have seen a pretty good case made for it by Theonomy, a.k.a Jack Bauer, a.k.a whatever else he has changed his name to recently. I declare, this name switchery here at T-Web makes me do cheetah flips!

Anyway, I also think that it is a possibility that humans *cannot* be destroyed once they are made. Perhaps hell is the only option for those who do not choose God. I think that this idea has some holes in it, but it is something to think about.

Either way, I'm with you. Eternal torment does not intuitively make sense. Perhaps scripture has been misunderstood or perhaps there are other parameters we are not aware of which would clarify the matter.

Cheers,

Matt

[god rules]

what about the question of being luke warm? the luke warm he shall spew out of his mouth.

[mickiel]

In my view, there is no point to unending torment. And no possible way to support the point using Gods characther, Gods common sense, his mercy or his love and wisdom. None of those things can be used to justify such a belief.

But it is more than just a belief, it is a religion within itself. It is not just a belief, I think it is an inward desire of those who hold to it, and willnot release it. Its what they want to do with unbelievers. They want them to be tortured. Its a desire. I wouldnot believe in anything that I personally do not desire or agree with. So I cannot believe in hell torment, I neither desire it for myself or others.

Everything in the bible that I have accepted, I agree with 100 %. What I agree with, I desire it, and I admire it. I do not agree with eternal misery, and I do not see God as being that kind of being would would allow its existance. I ask forgiveness for stating this, because I know many here hold to this so strongly. This subject is a main reason I parted company with the beliefs of any religion that has accepted this unusual interpitation of what they believe God will do.

Its such a horrible thing for hearts filled with love to accept and believe. I honestly don't see how people do it.

Peace.

[god rules]

how do you know that it is dependant on how we live. what if I live as good as I can, but think "eh that jesus thing doesnt make enough sense, Ill go with taoism or something like that?"

what if I started out praying to jesus, but in my later years I lose faith?

our rightiousness is as filthy rags. we are only saved by the blood of jesus.

[god rules]

how do you know that it is dependant on how we live. what if I live as good as I can, but think "eh that jesus thing doesnt make enough sense, Ill go with taoism or something like that?"

what if I started out praying to jesus, but in my later years I lose faith?

In my view, there is no point to unending torment. And no possible way to support the point using Gods characther, Gods common sense, his mercy or his love and wisdom. None of those things can be used to justify such a belief.

But it is more than just a belief, it is a religion within itself. It is not just a belief, I think it is an inward desire of those who hold to it, and willnot release it. Its what they want to do with unbelievers. They want them to be tortured. Its a desire. I wouldnot believe in anything that I personally do not desire or agree with. So I cannot believe in hell torment, I neither desire it for myself or others.

Everything in the bible that I have accepted, I agree with 100 %. What I agree with, I desire it, and I admire it. I do not agree with eternal misery, and I do not see God as being that kind of being would would allow its existance. I ask forgiveness for stating this, because I know many here hold to this so strongly. This subject is a main reason I parted company with the beliefs of any religion that has accepted this unusual interpitation of what they believe God will do.

Its such a horrible thing for hearts filled with love to accept and believe. I honestly don't see how people do it.

Peace.

If you read the bible jesus talks more about hell than he does about heaven. If there wasn't a place hell consisting of eternal separation from god than why the need for a savior? This would make the death and resurrection of Christ irrelevant.

[mickiel]

I disagree that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did heaven, those who repeat that statisitc perhaps show how little they read the bible. The need for a Savior and the Reason for Salvationis is sin, we are being saved from sin, not saved from Hell. If you think the only reason Christ is relevant is because of hell, in my view, such a view of Christ is shallow.

Many believe in eternal torture because they see a few verses in the bible, and have made those verses doctrines of belief, and desires of themselves. The two reasons people adhere to eternal hell punishment, is because they believe it, and desire it.

Every doctrine in scripture I have accepted, I wholeheartly desire it. Now, believers in hell punishment will never admit that they desire it, to themselves or to God. So one needs to ask themselves why there is something in Gods word that they believe and accept, but really do not desire. If they show the courage to admit that they really do desire it, well then we will see whats really in the heart.

And they are trying to convince us that that " Weirdness" is in Gods heart also. I will never accept that Gods heart is anything like the beliefs and interpitations of men.

I offer my humble apology for not agreeing with those who are spreading this belief.

Peace.

[shadowman]

If you read the bible jesus talks more about hell than he does about heaven. If there wasn't a place hell consisting of eternal separation from god than why the need for a savior? This would make the death and resurrection of Christ irrelevant.

isnt jesus mostly interested in how we come to know the father?

[shadowman]

our rightiousness is as filthy rags. we are only saved by the blood of jesus.

even if we are all screwed up, we shouldnt be eternally cut off/tortuured... whatever. its just not what you do with conscious beings.... unless you are a big meanie. it a hard stance for a human to relate too.

[M.Talkingsworth]

If you read the bible jesus talks more about hell than he does about heaven. If there wasn't a place hell consisting of eternal separation from god than why the need for a savior? This would make the death and resurrection of Christ irrelevant.

I think Jesus would be equally as relevant if there was a different sort of punishment such as annihailation, or purgatory. I also echo that Jesus is relevant for his power to release people from the bondage of sin regardless of any potential punishment he may or may not rescue us from.

Another thought:

Sin is defined by some as separation from God. Hell is described as eternal separation from God. Sin is also described as *THE* problem with creation. By making hell eternal, God would be, in a manner of thinking, intentionally prolonging the problem with creation. Eliminating the wicked and retaining the righteous sees as though it would be a much cleaner way to deal with sin. Also somewhat kinder. Still just, too since the wicked are punished and are unable to perpitrate any more wickedness.

Thoughts?


God Bless,

Matt

[shadowman]

does wicked mean the people who dont believe in jesus, or those who reject the holy spirit?

why cant god just remove the wickedness from everyone, like he does with the people hes grooming for his heaven club?

I want my wickedness removed, but I can't see labeling myself as "A WICKED" nor can I make sense of labeling others as simply "A WICKED"

[M.Talkingsworth]

does wicked mean the people who dont believe in jesus, or those who reject the holy spirit?

The Bible presupposes the deity of Jesus as an obvious fact, therefore it follows that only wicked people would reject the obvious Son of God. Therefore in the Biblical view, the two are synonymous. Of course, it does not make sense that someone who has never heard of Jesus is automatically wicked (unless you take the position that people are born wicked, which I do not) since they clearly did not have a choice in the matter.



why cant god just remove the wickedness from everyone, like he does with the people hes grooming for his heaven club?


It is possible that the removal of "wickedness" is not something that can be passively applied to an individual. Perhaps wickedness is such that the individual must make a choice. I would imagine that the choosing ability inherent in humanity would play into this somehow.


I want my wickedness removed, but I can't see labeling myself as "A WICKED" nor can I make sense of labeling others as simply "A WICKED"

I think that this may be some of it too. I have often found that I must understand the evil in something before I am able to cast it off. Perhaps God is actually teaching us things through our choice to reject wickedness and subsuquent struggle.

Cheers,

Matt

[Narnian]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

Good point Shadowman.

I like Pope JP's explanation;

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

Why is this in Unorthodox theology? Who said unending torment was orthodox?

[god rules]

does wicked mean the people who dont believe in jesus, or those who reject the holy spirit?

why cant god just remove the wickedness from everyone, like he does with the people hes grooming for his heaven club?

I want my wickedness removed, but I can't see labeling myself as "A WICKED" nor can I make sense of labeling others as simply "A WICKED"

So should your boss do all your work at your job while you receive the paycheck?

[god rules]

The Bible presupposes the deity of Jesus as an obvious fact, therefore it follows that only wicked people would reject the obvious Son of God. Therefore in the Biblical view, the two are synonymous. Of course, it does not make sense that someone who has never heard of Jesus is automatically wicked (unless you take the position that people are born wicked, which I do not) since they clearly did not have a choice in the matter.




It is possible that the removal of "wickedness" is not something that can be passively applied to an individual. Perhaps wickedness is such that the individual must make a choice. I would imagine that the choosing ability inherent in humanity would play into this somehow.



I think that this may be some of it too. I have often found that I must understand the evil in something before I am able to cast it off. Perhaps God is actually teaching us things through our choice to reject wickedness and subsuquent struggle.

Cheers,

Matt

8 He will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit."

9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

[god rules]

I disagree that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did heaven, those who repeat that statisitc perhaps show how little they read the bible. The need for a Savior and the Reason for Salvationis is sin, we are being saved from sin, not saved from Hell. If you think the only reason Christ is relevant is because of hell, in my view, such a view of Christ is shallow.

Many believe in eternal torture because they see a few verses in the bible, and have made those verses doctrines of belief, and desires of themselves. The two reasons people adhere to eternal hell punishment, is because they believe it, and desire it.

Every doctrine in scripture I have accepted, I wholeheartly desire it. Now, believers in hell punishment will never admit that they desire it, to themselves or to God. So one needs to ask themselves why there is something in Gods word that they believe and accept, but really do not desire. If they show the courage to admit that they really do desire it, well then we will see whats really in the heart.

And they are trying to convince us that that " Weirdness" is in Gods heart also. I will never accept that Gods heart is anything like the beliefs and interpitations of men.

I offer my humble apology for not agreeing with those who are spreading this belief.

Peace.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 10:15
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Mark 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Ezekiel 31:17
They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalm 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psalm 86:13
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Ezekiel 31:16
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Matthew 13:41-43 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I hope this is enough for you

[barnasha]

Hell is watching your life play back and being unable to change it as you realize all the times you have failed to do good, and to know for eternity that your mark upon the world and that the core of your being is now inexorably represented by the way you behaved.

hell is much more than death, death is what happens when people stop living, tons of walking dead today who prefer to live in the fantasy of Adam, i.e. eat from the Tree of Knowledge, rather than return the Garden of Bliss mentioned in the Book of Genesis

eternal life is to become like a child again, not to merely become 'religious'.

[mickiel]

Verses were listed on hell, and the writer suggest that he hopes they were enough for me. The fear he has in those verses, the hope and belief he has in those verses, the desire he has in those verses, the way he interpits those verses,are not for me. They are only for those who view hell as he does. Hell is simply the grave, or a place of death. Both of those things, which are not human, but " Things", are cast into a lake of fire. The reason they are cast into the lake, is to be destroyed, and they will stay destroyed forever, thus their fate is eternal.

In other words, there will forever be no more death, no more graves, no more misery, no more suffering, and no more crying, or these things will no longer exist. This is the Promise of God in Revelation 22:3; " There shall no longer be any CURSE." This promise of God is repeated in Rev.21:4. Notice the expression, " There shall no longer Be." This is the promise, or the Desire of God, that there shall no longer be, " Mourning, crying, pain , Death or misery, all the things that the substance of this imagined eternal suffering in hell must be if it is to exist.

This is what is enough for me. These are the verses that match and feed my desires, my interpitation, my hope for humanity, and my views of God himselfs hope for his creations. My mind is free from the misery of Hell, and no christian can any longer enslave it with their view of misery. And I have a list of scriptures of my own, but I will only list two for now. I share them with the hope and freedom that they have given me. The true desire they have filled me with.

Job 23:13;" But God is Unique and who can turn him? What his soul DESIRES, that he does." God only does those things he desires to do. He does not do things he does not want to do, he is not contridicted or confused. What does God desire? 1Tim. 2:4;" He DESIRES that all men be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth." So the hope of sinful humanity, unbelieving humanity, rest in the Desires of God, it is there that Salvation is Born, not in the Hearts and beliefs of men. Not in the scriptorial interpitation of men, not in the desire of hell suffering believers.

I don't need to ride the hell wave of those who have given there desire for misery to their hearts, in order to fuel their belief. I am fueled by the gifts and mercies of God, his promise to end those things that I do not like.

Because I believe that God does not like Hell, nor does he like anything that is misery, and he certainly is not incapable of forever destroying any form of misery forever. He has already destroyed the misery and desire of hell in my mind.

This is the hpoe I have in God for humanity. And I ask the forgiveness of those that this desire, this hope offends.

Peace.

[god rules]

dear mickiel
if you think i want to believe in hell because i enjoy the thought of it, you are mistaken. I believe there is a hell because JESUS spoke of hell as being a real place where there will be eternal suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Not my words but JESUS words. No disrespect, but you can't only believe the things you like about what JESUS said and not the things you don't like. If you say that hell is not real, then you have to be willing to say JESUS is wrong or not telling the TRUTH. I'm not willing to do that. By not telling people the truth about eternity we are doing them a disservice that will have eternal consequences. If there was a cliff ahead would you not warn the driver? or say "let him find out when he gets there".

[god rules]

check this out:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/188/story_18811_1.html

[Bill the Cat]

Rev 22:3 is a continuation of the description of the New Jerusalem, which those in the lake of fire have no part.

Rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Job 23 is in the middle of Job's complaining that God has afflicted him and has more in store. It has nothing to do with the salvation of men in 1 Tim, or else Jesus' words in Matthew 23:37 are contradictory. Taking a similar English word in two different languages and contexts does not make it so.

[mickiel]

To God rules,

In my view, there is no such thing as a seperation of what you believe about God, and his fruits of the Spirit, they apply to any subject in the bible, or any doctrine derived from the bible. For example, if you accept anything that God is doing, or plans on doing, then you must accept that he is doing it because he takes joy out of doing it, he Loves doing it, he is patient doing it, he will suffer long doing it, he will be gentle and kind while doing it, and it will always result in Peace.

Every doctrine in the bible that I believe in, is no different. If I accept that God has planted the doctrine, then those can only be his reasons for creating the doctrine. None of the Fruits of Gods Spirit " Fit the eternal hell torturing doctrine", none of them. If I must force my belief to fit a doctrine such as everlasting suffering, then it must be explained according to Gods characther only, and HIS desires. Then one can say, well if God desires it, then so do I, and use blind faith and trust in God. What you then believe, is a statement of YOUR desires, because you believe them to be Gods desires also.

I am respectfully disagreeing with those who claim it is Gods desire to punish humans, while they are conscious, for all of eternity. I am already convinced that God will get what he desires, just as I am convinced that misdirected believers in God willNOT get what they desire for sinners who willnot repent.

Jesus came to take the sins of humanity away, the misdirected beliefs of some believers are searching the scriptures to find ways to bring those sins back, and charge God to punish them forever. This belief is strong, because it is a strong desire at its root. You do not push a doctrine that you do not personally desire, that is not possible. The doctrine does not fit God, it fits misery and death, two things God willnot co-exist with in eternity. I search the scripture to find life for unbelievers, forgiveness for sinners, hope for people who are hopeless, and I have found it because it is there. I offer my respectfull disagreement with those who have found ways to condemn humanity to an eternal life of misery.

Peace.

[god rules]

To God rules,

In my view, there is no such thing as a seperation of what you believe about God, and his fruits of the Spirit, they apply to any subject in the bible, or any doctrine derived from the bible. For example, if you accept anything that God is doing, or plans on doing, then you must accept that he is doing it because he takes joy out of doing it, he Loves doing it, he is patient doing it, he will suffer long doing it, he will be gentle and kind while doing it, and it will always result in Peace.

Every doctrine in the bible that I believe in, is no different. If I accept that God has planted the doctrine, then those can only be his reasons for creating the doctrine. None of the Fruits of Gods Spirit " Fit the eternal hell torturing doctrine", none of them. If I must force my belief to fit a doctrine such as everlasting suffering, then it must be explained according to Gods characther only, and HIS desires. Then one can say, well if God desires it, then so do I, and use blind faith and trust in God. What you then believe, is a statement of YOUR desires, because you believe them to be Gods desires also.

I am respectfully disagreeing with those who claim it is Gods desire to punish humans, while they are conscious, for all of eternity. I am already convinced that God will get what he desires, just as I am convinced that misdirected believers in God willNOT get what they desire for sinners who willnot repent.

Jesus came to take the sins of humanity away, the misdirected beliefs of some believers are searching the scriptures to find ways to bring those sins back, and charge God to punish them forever. This belief is strong, because it is a strong desire at its root. You do not push a doctrine that you do not personally desire, that is not possible. The doctrine does not fit God, it fits misery and death, two things God willnot co-exist with in eternity. I search the scripture to find life for unbelievers, forgiveness for sinners, hope for people who are hopeless, and I have found it because it is there. I offer my respectfull disagreement with those who have found ways to condemn humanity to an eternal life of misery.

Peace.

Most people choose not to believe that not only is he a loving God but also a God of wrath and judgement. As long as you are covered by the blood you have nothing to fear. You do not believe the story of Noah and the flood? The flood was God's judgement on the earth.

16 Make a roof for it and finish [a] the ark to within 18 inches [b] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you.

or how about the plagues that were sent against pharoah in egypt?

12 the LORD appeared to him at night and said:
"I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a temple for sacrifices.
13 "When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

These are not doctrines but actual events that took place in history. Anyway this last passage sums up what i've been saying to you in a nutshell

Ephesians 5:5-7 (New International Version)

5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

[M.Talkingsworth]

dear mickiel
if you think i want to believe in hell because i enjoy the thought of it, you are mistaken. I believe there is a hell because JESUS spoke of hell as being a real place where there will be eternal suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Not my words but JESUS words. No disrespect, but you can't only believe the things you like about what JESUS said and not the things you don't like. If you say that hell is not real, then you have to be willing to say JESUS is wrong or not telling the TRUTH. I'm not willing to do that. By not telling people the truth about eternity we are doing them a disservice that will have eternal consequences. If there was a cliff ahead would you not warn the driver? or say "let him find out when he gets there".

Hi God Rules,

I cannot speak for Mickiel, but I think he may be referring to something a little more complex than "I choose what I like from the Bible and discard the rest". The idea that eternal punishment is not Biblical is not a new idea and is not universally denied. Although the "annihilationists" may be in the minority, there really are reasonable arguments to be made from scriptural principles which show annihilationism to be a logical possibility.

Another fact that must be taken into consideration is the fact that although scripture is clear on the important points of salvation, there is some ambiguity with some details. There are many differing beliefs held by people who venerate the Bible as God's word. Take for example, the argument between Erasmus and Luther regarding free will. Both venerated the Bible but both came to very different conclusions based on the text. Luther and Calvin had a similar disagreement over a different issue which I cannot bring to mind right now.

In light of this, I think Mickiel may be saying that when there is ambiguity in scripture, people have a tendency to believe what they think God would want. I do not think that Mickiel believes as he does because of selfish or evil reasons, but because he sincerely believes that God would not punish people eternally.

Most people choose not to believe that not only is he a loving God but also a God of wrath and judgement. As long as you are covered by the blood you have nothing to fear. You do not believe the story of Noah and the flood? The flood was God's judgement on the earth.

I disagree. It seems that most Christians whole heartedly accept the idea of eternal hell. It seems to be the most commonly held belief. I also think that God can be just without subjecting people to eternal hell. I think that he could do away with wicked people as a just punishment for a life of wrongdoing.

I also think that describing God as "Wrathful" may give some people the wrong impression. Sometimes "wrathful" carries a connotation of vengeance whereas God is just and upright and only punishes people according to what they deserve (also the definition of just).

Cheers,

Matt

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=god rules;2035414]

These are not doctrines but actual events that took place in history. Anyway this last passage sums up what i've been saying to you in a nutshell



What you have been saying to me in a nutshell, is that Gods wrath is against sinners, what I have been saying is that his wrath is against sin, not the person. Sin will be forever done away with, you are believing the sinner will forever be done away with. I desire God to destroy sin forever, I want him to do it, I agree with him doing it. I am not ashamed of admitting thats what I desire. You want God to do away with sinners forever, you believe it, because you want him to do that, but you willnot seemingly admit your desire. Or you won't admit that God is going to do something that you do not like.

In John 3:16, the reason Jesus was given to the world, is because God loves sinners, and he does not love punishing them. I agree with God, we should be punished, but I agree with him that Jesus took the punishment for our sins, that is what 1John 2:2 means. Jesus paied the debt incurred by humanitys sin which incited Gods wrath, but you are suggesting that humanity must personally pay for those sins already covered, by and endless issue of pain and misery for all eternity. Which suggest to me that Jesus death was NOT the Propitition for all sin, but just for the sins of the people who believe as you do. This is not a message of hope for sinners, its a partial selection of hope for believers only. I disagree with that. Reconciliation covers all sin, because Jesus was a ransom for all, 1Tim. 2:6.

My eyes behold a Lamb of God who has taken away the sins of the world, John 1:29, you are suggesting that he has not taken them away, thus , according to your points of view, Salvation is selective and God is partial to only believers. So this kind of belief has literally trained people to be shortsighted on Salvation, which, from that mindset or belief, it becomes frightenly easy to condemn people to everylasting fruitless existence, and claim that to be Gods desire, and somehow lack the courage to claim its not your desire.

One mans act of Righteousness has given forgiveness and Salvation to all men, Rom. 5:18. Your view of hell is trying to eliminate the truth in this verse from Gods promise.

And it is why I have seperated myself from those who hold to this view.

I just don't like it. And I do not desire it.

Peace.

[M.Talkingsworth]

[QUOTE=god rules;2035414]

These are not doctrines but actual events that took place in history. Anyway this last passage sums up what i've been saying to you in a nutshell



What you have been saying to me in a nutshell, is that Gods wrath is against sinners, what I have been saying is that his wrath is against sin, not the person. Sin will be forever done away with, you are believing the sinner will forever be done away with. I desire God to destroy sin forever, I want him to do it, I agree with him doing it. I am not ashamed of admitting thats what I desire. You want God to do away with sinners forever, you believe it, because you want him to do that, but you willnot seemingly admit your desire. Or you won't admit that God is going to do something that you do not like.

In John 3:16, the reason Jesus was given to the world, is because God loves sinners, and he does not love punishing them. I agree with God, we should be punished, but I agree with him that Jesus took the punishment for our sins, that is what 1John 2:2 means. Jesus paied the debt incurred by humanitys sin which incited Gods wrath, but you are suggesting that humanity must personally pay for those sins already covered, by and endless issue of pain and misery for all eternity. Which suggest to me that Jesus death was NOT the Propitition for all sin, but just for the sins of the people who believe as you do. This is not a message of hope for sinners, its a partial selection of hope for believers only. I disagree with that. Reconciliation covers all sin, because Jesus was a ransom for all, 1Tim. 2:6.

My eyes behold a Lamb of God who has taken away the sins of the world, John 1:29, you are suggesting that he has not taken them away, thus , according to your points of view, Salvation is selective and God is partial to only believers. So this kind of belief has literally trained people to be shortsighted on Salvation, which, from that mindset or belief, it becomes frightenly easy to condemn people to everylasting fruitless existence, and claim that to be Gods desire, and somehow lack the courage to claim its not your desire.

One mans act of Righteousness has given forgiveness and Salvation to all men, Rom. 5:18. Your view of hell is trying to eliminate the truth in this verse from Gods promise.

And it is why I have seperated myself from those who hold to this view.

I just don't like it. And I do not desire it.

Peace.

Hi Mickiel,

Just to clarify and not to start an argument:

Do you think that the Bible teaches that *all* people, even those who reject Jesus, will be saved through Jesus' sacrifice?

Thanks,

Matt

[mickiel]

Well yes, I most certainly do.

Sin is nothing to God, and will do nothing to alter his will for humanity. We were created to have Life, and have it abundantly, which is eternally, and that is a plan of God that willnot return to him void. And I know God is very capable of doing that, because its what he Wants to do. People believe in limited Salvation because they have been trained to believe that Salvation is soley up to, and the result of human will and choice. I believe Salvation is up to and soley the result of Gods will.

The sacrifice of Jesus was a total reconciliation of God toward humans, and all humans are sinners, there are no exceptions to this. The death of Jesus canceled out the certificate of death that hung over sinners, Col.2:14. Thus any interpitation that looks to bring back that death certificate and make it active, even active eternally, in my view looks to again enslave humanity from something we have been freed from.

And yes, the bible most certainly teachs this. Notice 1Tim.4:10;" For this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the Living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, ( which is a reference to unbelievers and those who reject Christ), and Especially of BELIEVERS! Now this verse clearly shows two seperate groups of humans being saved. One is Special, the believers, the other is simply " All other men who do not believe." Now I didnot put this verse in the bible to make my belief true, it put my belief in me. And thats why the verse was put there, so we can believe it and strive and labor to fix sinners and unbelievers hope on it.

But astoundingly, certain believers in God, are actually striving to take away this hope from humanity, and replace it with threats of eternal damnation. They are not" Prescribing and teaching these things" of God Saving all men, ( vs.11), they are doing just the oppisite.

Listen, the bible is full of such verse as these. Filled with good news of Life for all. But people who do not desire Life for all, search the scriptures to find condemnation for unbelieving humanity.

And I just willnot grab hold of their views, and willnot adhere to those views as the desires of God.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

Col 2:14 is referring to believers.

1 Tim 4:10 shows Jesus is the savior of all men (meaning potentially) and especially of the believers (effectually). It does not show them BEING SAVED, it shows the elsewhere specified potential for Jesus to save them if we believe in Him. All men must believe in Him and believers must persevere until the end.

[god rules]

What you have been saying to me in a nutshell, is that Gods wrath is against sinners, what I have been saying is that his wrath is against sin, not the person. Sin will be forever done away with, you are believing the sinner will forever be done away with. I desire God to destroy sin forever, I want him to do it, I agree with him doing it. I am not ashamed of admitting thats what I desire. You want God to do away with sinners forever, you believe it, because you want him to do that, but you willnot seemingly admit your desire. Or you won't admit that God is going to do something that you do not like


no actually i want sinners to be saved and avoid the consequences of rejecting jesus. That is my desire that people receive the gift of eternal life. I'm not sadistic wishing eternal damnation on people please....... I already said i don't like the idea of the reality of hell but that doesn't change the fact that it is a reality. It is out of love that i would warn people of the dangers of hell, for it would be a disservice to tell them not to worry about it.

[mickiel]

no actually i want sinners to be saved and avoid the consequences of rejecting jesus. That is my desire that people receive the gift of eternal life. I'm not sadistic wishing eternal damnation on people please....... I already said i don't like the idea of the reality of hell but that doesn't change the fact that it is a reality. It is out of love that i would warn people of the dangers of hell, for it would be a disservice to tell them not to worry about it.



Well I can want to believe you, that you do not like the Idea, and it is not your desire, you would then be one of the few Christians I have spoken to who admit as such. Now then, since you admit to not liking or desiring the Idea, but yet you believe it is Gods Idea, then you are not desiring what God is, and you dislike something he is planning on doing. Can you then explain to me if you think God himself likes the Idea of eternal punishment. Further more, if you go as far as suggesting that God himself does not like the Idea of it, then explain to me why God would do something for eternity that he does not like to do.

Peace.

[god rules]

Well I can want to believe you, that you do not like the Idea, and it is not your desire, you would then be one of the few Christians I have spoken to who admit as such. Now then, since you admit to not liking or desiring the Idea, but yet you believe it is Gods Idea, then you are not desiring what God is, and you dislike something he is planning on doing. Can you then explain to me if you think God himself likes the Idea of eternal punishment. Further more, if you go as far as suggesting that God himself does not like the Idea of it, then explain to me why God would do something for eternity that he does not like to do.

Peace.

Deuteronomy 5:1
[ The Ten Commandments ] Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them
Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

The reason i post this is for those who believe all are saved. You cannot be saved following a false god. ex. buddah, mohamed, harry chrishna....
God does not desire anyone go to hell for eternity,
1 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version)
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

that is why he sent his son to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. Man is the one who originally sinned against God(adam and Eve in the garden). When we do sin, and we all fall short,

Romans 3:22-24 (New International Version)
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

all we have to do is go to God and ask forgiveness of those sins and turn from them and he cast them into the sea.
Psalm 103:11-13 (New International Version)

11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;

12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

The bottom line is, It's not god's doing it's man's choosing
Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

[mickiel]

Quote; the bottom line is, its not Gods doing, its mans choosing.

Now this is what I view as mans religion, or mans effort, or mans interpitation, or mans will and mans choice, that is self made religion, or religion that is based on what the people choose and do, not on what Christ has done. This is religion based on self. You choose salvation, you choose to go to hell, you choose to repent, you choose while God just stands by and depends on your choice. This is how such people control the biblical teachings in their congregations, they teach that we control God, we control our salvation, all the while their pastors are controlling them.

So when this kind of mentality tries to teach the gospel, it must use " Control tactics", because it evolved from self control. It is teaching human control over Salvation, or free will. It seeks to put the ball in the humans hands, and give humans the responsibility for salvation. And that is exactly why this approach has failed to convert humanity, because humans cannot control and convert other humans.

The only way to receive Salvation is through Jesus Christ, and Jesus has not demanded a price for it. You know why, because its not mans doing, not up to us, we were not required to die on the cross, Jesus choose to die in our place. Its not mans choice, it is esus choice that substains us.

Peace.

[shadowman]

with out hell, or gods wrath..;. what would we need jesus for?

[mickiel]

Without hell or Gods wrath, what would we need Jesus for?{ Quote}


God help us all.

Would you look at this belief. Look at what traditional teaching has influenced this mind to be reduced to. This statement suggest that the two reasons we need Jesus, is hell and Gods wrath. Oh so now Jesus is reduced to a being that " Protects us from the monsters called Gods wrath and hell".

May God have mercy on us. We are pulled by just any wind of doctrine.

Salvation has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with hell or Gods wrath. Good Greif. Salvation has to do with Gods LOVE, his MERCY, his GENTLENESS, his PATIENCE, his JOY, his PEACE, his LONGSUFFERING, his KINDNESS, these are the things Gods Kingdom is built on, not FEAR.

We need Jesus to live in us , so that we can have these fruits COMMING out of us, because they are now our way of Life. THATS why we need Jesus, to let his mind be in us.

Hell and Gods wrath are not doctrines, they only become doctrines to fear laden minds who are not accustomed to the power of Gods Spirit, and its fruits.

Peace.

[shadowman]

are you familiar with the way of the master tv and radio programs?

their message is pretty straightforward, they think fear is the tool to begin the journey of aquiring gods wisdom


we have all broken the commandments

so we all face a terrible wrath of god after death. and jesus took the punishment for us.

we have to accept it.....

[mickiel]

We all do not face a " Terrible Wrath" from God. We face a future of neverending Joy and gladness with God. God needs no fear mongering reputation to get his message across, the only reason certain people need to focus on Gods wrath, is because they wouldnot be obedient without it. They NEED that fear of Gods wrath to hold them up like a crutch.

These same people NEED to believe in hell, because the Fear of it motivates them to believe and obey God. Both of these are just, at its root, fearful self survival, not motivated by God, but by Fear of God. They believe in this fear, because its what they need to run through their veins of belief.

They are scared of God, and their interpitation of scripture is filtered by that fear.

Thats why they show these verses about hell, because its their real motivation, and they think it should be yours.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

Mickiel,

Please show me ONE example of someone escaping hell and going to heaven.

[mickiel]

Mickiel,

Please show me ONE example of someone escaping hell and going to heaven.



My view of hell is not what yours is. You think hell is the Lake of Fire, it is not. The Lake of Fire is a place uniquely its own, and was created for specfic reasons. The Hell I see in the bible is the grave. So you are asking how many people have escaped the grave and are with God.

Even still, it matters not to me, I will still answer what you have requested. There are no examples of anyone escaping hell fire punishment, because there is no hell fire punishment for humans to escape. All those verses about hell have been nullified by a power greater than christian belief. There is now no more condemnation to those in Christ, who then is in Christ, John 17:2, Everyone was given to Christ by God the Father, not just you Christians. You cannot horde salvation all to yourselves.

The gates of hell willnot, cannot prevail on Gods church. What selfish believers don't know is that Gods church, is really his family. The firstfruits are called that, only because they are called out first, then the whole wave of humanity is next to come. So the church, or Gods Family, will eventually be every human being created. And the " Gates of Hell", or the misery of pain and death, willnot penertrate Gods destiny for his people.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Also Bill, let me say this to you,

Because I remember you from last year when I visted Twebb, I have not come to vist to change anyones belief, that will be what it will be in any of us. I was sent a birthday card and thought I would vist, and I saw post on Universal Salvation, which you know me to believe in. So I commented only on those things that intrest me. I have not come to fight or belittle anyones personage, I only speak on my beliefs.

I couldnot give you one example of someone escaping a place that I know does not exist. Hell exist, the Lake of Fire exist, but you view them as things that I do not. Now I could use verses in the bible to debate your point, but that does not intrest me. I already know you are convinced of these views you have. I mean I could use Jude 1:22-23, and show that it shows that " Snatching people out of the Fire", and saving them would suffice your question, but that verse is not speaking about a burning hell torture fire, its talking about the Lake of fire and its real purpose, 1Corinth.3:13-15. Here is the real purpose of the Lake of Fire, an egnigmatic mysterious place. Notice vs.15, " If any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, even through the Fire." This really is the escape from fire, and still being saved you have requested to see.

But you see Bill, we do not see the same. But these two verses are examples of my belief, the fire does not stop Salvation. It will " Burn up things", and we will suffer some kind of Loss, but we still will be saved.

Peace.

[god rules]

[qoute=mickiel]

Even still, it matters not to me, I will still answer what you have requested. There are no examples of anyone escaping hell fire punishment, because there is no hell fire punishment for humans to escape. All those verses about hell have been nullified by a power greater than christian belief. There is now no more condemnation to those in Christ, who then is in Christ, John 17:2, Everyone was given to Christ by God the Father, not just you Christians. You cannot horde salvation all to yourselves.

Look at what it says in verse 3, it seems you stopped reading to soon or just took it out of context:
John 17 (King James Version)2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,
that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If you just read verse 2 than you might think that, but then we see in verse 3 it says:
that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

My point is you need to know the ONLY TRUE GOD and JESUS CHRIST, not BUDDAH, MOHAMAD, or HARRY CRISHNA. All RELIGIONS do not lead to heaven better known as false teachings which the bible speaks of and gives warning to.

[god rules]

Quote; the bottom line is, its not Gods doing, its mans choosing.

Now this is what I view as mans religion, or mans effort, or mans interpitation, or mans will and mans choice, that is self made religion, or religion that is based on what the people choose and do, not on what Christ has done. This is religion based on self. You choose salvation, you choose to go to hell, you choose to repent, you choose while God just stands by and depends on your choice. This is how such people control the biblical teachings in their congregations, they teach that we control God, we control our salvation, all the while their pastors are controlling them.

So when this kind of mentality tries to teach the gospel, it must use " Control tactics", because it evolved from self control. It is teaching human control over Salvation, or free will. It seeks to put the ball in the humans hands, and give humans the responsibility for salvation. And that is exactly why this approach has failed to convert humanity, because humans cannot control and convert other humans.

The only way to receive Salvation is through Jesus Christ, and Jesus has not demanded a price for it. You know why, because its not mans doing, not up to us, we were not required to die on the cross, Jesus choose to die in our place. Its not mans choice, it is esus choice that substains us.

Peace.

then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve
Please tell me how you can misconstrue this statement and by the way, this is JESUS WORDS not mine.

[Whipartist]

are you familiar with the way of the master tv and radio programs?

their message is pretty straightforward, they think fear is the tool to begin the journey of aquiring gods wisdom


we have all broken the commandments

so we all face a terrible wrath of god after death. and jesus took the punishment for us.

we have to accept it.....

That's funny, I suspected you were reacting to some of the "Way of The Master" material. To put it in a nutshell, they're full of baloney from beginning to end. This very popular version of the gospel is not true, not from the Bible and is irrational.

[mickiel]

It does not matter what gods men worship now, what only matters is that they are destined to worship the one and only true God, that is their destiny. But people cannot see that now, they are blinded by the one true God, and THATS why they worship false gods. It is ALSO why they cannot be condemned, so those who do worship the only true God, SHOULD know this and stop condemning them.

The REAL problem with those who do worship the one true God, is how THEY are doing it. Instead of complettely understanding that God has locked people into disbelief, they are running around condemning others for not believing as they do, as if God is not going to draw those people to him in the future.

I know that there is only one God, one Faith and one way to believe that. But I also know that only God can give that understanding.

And he does not give it to people so that they can condemn others, but that is exactly what most believers are doing.

Peace.

[infide]

with out hell, or gods wrath..;. what would we need jesus for?

The implication behind this question could in fact be stated another way - "The only good reason to be a Christian is to escape hell."

This is at the very heart of why I am a Universalist. Because, basically - I just dont believe that God is the kind of Person to threaten people into a relationship with Himself. Love is not forced, nor can it be.

But the mysterious nature of death leads living people to feel they have some special benefit over the dead. Why should God give 1000 times for repentance to someone who lives a long life, but none to a young child who dies? If there are many ways for God to offer forgiveness in this life, how much more will there be opportunity for it after death?

Peace,
JD

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=infide;2036732]The implication behind this question could in fact be stated another way - "The only good reason to be a Christian is to escape hell."



The way some Christians push and depend on the hell doctrine, one would think they believe that they are escape artist who hold the right to brag on their skill at escaping. Not all Christians, but many have had their mentalitys reduced to serving God out of survival, and their thinging is that of a survivalist. So their message is rooted in survivalism, or escaping hell damnation. That is not the Gospel, its just not. The Gospel has nothing to do with hell, nothing.

So they have blanketed the world with this message, thinking that fear of hell is the best Gospel.

As we have seen and can see in history, it is not.

Peace.

[god rules]

HEY Mickiel did u check this out yet? please do and let me know your thoughts?

check this out:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/188/story_18811_1.html

[god rules]

mickiel
plus you never responded to post #57

[mickiel]

Well " Choose this day who you will serve", is not a " Calling of God", I am not blinded by such verses. The calling of God, or the drawing of God, is simply God contacting the human first, and no one, no matter what their personal choice may be, can inititiate this by their human desire. No one can even come to Christ, except and unless the Father first draws them, which means God will do something to their minds, their belief, and once God does that, I believe it cannot be undone.

I reject any other way of comming to be aware of God, other than this. And if you need the scriptures, I can post them.

Peace.

[JackC]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

Lucifer.

Unending torment is a fallen idea, created by Lucifer to keep the lost arguing, so that they remain lost.



Jack

[mickiel]

There are really no such things as "Lost people", to the dismay of Christians, all are destined to be saved.

The reason people teach good things and evil things, is because they have taken from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so they can only put out whats already inside of them, a deadly mixture of them both.

Not only is unending torment a fallen idea, its a horrible idea. But it will not die in Christianity because it is a Christian hope for sinners, they won't admit it, but its what they want God to do. Its a foundation of moderday Christian teaching.

Peace.

[god rules]

Well " Choose this day who you will serve", is not a " Calling of God", I am not blinded by such verses. The calling of God, or the drawing of God, is simply God contacting the human first, and no one, no matter what their personal choice may be, can inititiate this by their human desire. No one can even come to Christ, except and unless the Father first draws them, which means God will do something to their minds, their belief, and once God does that, I believe it cannot be undone.

I reject any other way of comming to be aware of God, other than this. And if you need the scriptures, I can post them.

Peace.
Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7
[ Ask, Seek, Knock ] "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

God did not create robots. We do have a part to play. God does use the holy spirit to draw people unto him but we must choose to act on it. These verses clearly state that God is urging us to seek him and when we do, we will find him.

[JackC]

There are really no such things as "Lost people", to the dismay of Christians, all are destined to be saved.

The reason people teach good things and evil things, is because they have taken from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so they can only put out whats already inside of them, a deadly mixture of them both.

Not only is unending torment a fallen idea, its a horrible idea. But it will not die in Christianity because it is a Christian hope for sinners, they won't admit it, but its what they want God to do. Its a foundation of moderday Christian teaching.

Peace.

Hello Mickiel,

I wish others would also see this, that all that comes from them is of the tree of knowledge of good and evil!

That in God, in Life, such a distinction of good/evil does not exist.

We are here because we wanted control, we wanted choice, we wanted to function according to our own wills, and so God said so be it and gave us a world of choice.

The idea of unending torment is 'punishment' and is the opposite of 'reward' - both are of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Having partaken of this tree, we are faced with judgments, choices, between what we perceive as good and what we perceive as evil and it is not until we do just as Jesus - as have all true teachers - taught and instructed - lose our life of choice, of judgment, of self will based on our individual desires and fears - will we find Truth and salvation.

In Truth, there is no reward and there is no punishment. This is why Paul talked of our status as heirs.

We must deny the self - lose our life of choice, of judgment - and walk as we have been taught - resisting not evil (not judging anything from a self perspective as bad or evil nor as good - remember what Jesus said when someone judged him as good), and following in the footsteps of Christ, losing our life in this world - losing our life of knowledge of good and evil.

Unfortunately, this is difficult to understand when all of one's programming and understanding comes from the tree of knowledge. One is programmed to make judgments from a self perspective. Denying self is an alien concept.

And you are right, all that God created will be saved - the Spirit that is in each human will eventually go Home. What will be lost will be the soul that clothed that Spirit, the collection of individual experiences in the playgrounds of creation will be lost in the second death.

Jesus did not come to save our Spirit - that does not need to be saved for it can never be lost. But what is lost* and what God is looking to save, is the soul clothing the Spirit - the collection of individual experiences in creation.

*Lost in forgetfulness of its true nature and purpose. Lost in self.

Peace to you, mickiel.



Jack

[mickiel]

the belief that we must " Choose to Act" on Gods calling, is an attemp from a selfish religion to incert self somewhere into the formula of conversion that results from the calling of God. Its a foundational result of believing in free will. Free will, or self choice, is an over ruling factor even in Gods calling according to Christian belief. This is an astounding error in interpitation. When God calls and chooses someone, he incerts within them his Holy Spirit, ( and only that when he is ready, not when their self choice to act is ready) the RESULTS of him doing that, is what the bible calls the fruits of the Spirit. The person is NOT acting upon their individual choice to follow those fruits, they are acting unpon the RESULTS of God injecting into them , something that was not there before. The person was DRAWN by God, and all of their behavior AFTER the drawing is a result of that drawing experience, NOT a result of THEIR CHOICE!

You see Christians invest an awful lot into themselves. They factor themselves into every area of doctrine that they can, even into the drawing of God. They do this because Christianity is based on pride and the elevation of self. These two things are the foundation of how they interpit many biblical things. No matter how powerful God is, Christians have created a way to control their own salvation and have based a doctrine on that control, that being free will. As Great as God is, the Christian teachs that we still control salvation by our individual choice.

I can't count the people in scripture that God called and choose, and NONE of them were ever given a free will choice. He stopped their lives where ever it was, and made them do what he wanted. There is not ONE single example of free will conversion in scripture, because its no such thing. Its a selfishly manufactored doctrine created by the forefathers of Modernday Christianity, ( the Pharisees), created as a way to give the Christian a way to put glory in themselves, and a way to support the doctrine of hell.

Peace.

[JackC]

the belief that we must " Choose to Act" on Gods calling, is an attemp from a selfish religion to incert self somewhere into the formula of conversion that results from the calling of God. Its a foundational result of believing in free will. Free will, or self choice, is an over ruling factor even in Gods calling according to Christian belief. This is an astounding error in interpitation. When God calls and chooses someone, he incerts within them his Holy Spirit, ( and only that when he is ready, not when their self choice to act is ready) the RESULTS of him doing that, is what the bible calls the fruits of the Spirit. The person is NOT acting upon their individual choice to follow those fruits, they are acting unpon the RESULTS of God injecting into them , something that was not there before. The person was DRAWN by God, and all of their behavior AFTER the drawing is a result of that drawing experience, NOT a result of THEIR CHOICE!

You see Christians invest an awful lot into themselves. They factor themselves into every area of doctrine that they can, even into the drawing of God. They do this because Christianity is based on pride and the elevation of self. These two things are the foundation of how they interpit many biblical things. No matter how powerful God is, Christians have created a way to control their own salvation and have based a doctrine on that control, that being free will. As Great as God is, the Christian teachs that we still control salvation by our individual choice.

I can't count the people in scripture that God called and choose, and NONE of them were ever given a free will choice. He stopped their lives where ever it was, and made them do what he wanted. There is not ONE single example of free will conversion in scripture, because its no such thing. Its a selfishly manufactored doctrine created by the forefathers of Modernday Christianity, ( the Pharisees), created as a way to give the Christian a way to put glory in themselves, and a way to support the doctrine of hell.

Peace.

Good insight, Mickiel.

And thus we find the Christian ranks filled with selfish individuals interpreting scripture from a self centered perspective, and creating a god in the image of their own selfishness.

Worse, not even understanding what they have done and why it keeps them imprisoned.

If we note, Jesus never said chose God, or make a choice for God - he said we can only serve one master - the self and its choices for itself, or God and God's choices, whatever those may be.

He not only taught but also demonstrated how to walk in self-denial, how to repent from a life of choices for the self and walk instead in love and service for our human family, waiting for God, for whatever God choses for us.



Jack

[god rules]

That in God, in Life, such a distinction of good/evil does not exist.


I beg to differ:

Ephesians 6:11-13 (New International Version)

11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

[god rules]

Good insight, Mickiel.

And thus we find the Christian ranks filled with selfish individuals interpreting scripture from a self centered perspective, and creating a god in the image of their own selfishness.

Worse, not even understanding what they have done and why it keeps them imprisoned.

If we note, Jesus never said chose God, or make a choice for God - he said we can only serve one master - the self and its choices for itself, or God and God's choices, whatever those may be.

He not only taught but also demonstrated how to walk in self-denial, how to repent from a life of choices for the self and walk instead in love and service for our human family, waiting for God, for whatever God choses for us.



Jack
Dear jackc and mickiel
respectfully, What do you base your beliefs on?

[god rules]

There are really no such things as "Lost people", to the dismay of Christians, all are destined to be saved.

The reason people teach good things and evil things, is because they have taken from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so they can only put out whats already inside of them, a deadly mixture of them both.

Not only is unending torment a fallen idea, its a horrible idea. But it will not die in Christianity because it is a Christian hope for sinners, they won't admit it, but its what they want God to do. Its a foundation of moderday Christian teaching.

Peace.

You know this type of reteric reminds me of an old song by Keith Green. It talks about people not believing in the devil. I hope everyone sees this because it is so profound. It reveals the devils greatest tool of influence is a lack of belief in him. What a revelation for Keith that was 30 yrs. ago.

No One Believes In Me Anymore Lyrics
Artist(Band):Keith Green

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As time keeps slipping away
I can imitate your brightest light
And make your night look just like day
I put some truth in every lie
To tickle itching ears
You know I'm drawing people just like flies
'Cause they like what they hear

I'm gaining power by the hour
they're falling by the score
You know, it's getting very simple now
'Cause no one believes in me anymore

Oh, heaven's just a state of mind
My books read on your shelf
And have you heard that God is dead
I made that one up myself
They dabble in magic spells
They get their fortunes read
You know they heard the truth
But turned away and followed me instead

I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
You know, no one's watching for my tricks
Because no one believes in me anymore

Everyone likes a winner
With my help, you're guaranteed to win
And hey man, you ain't no sinner
You've got the truth within
And as your life slips by
You believe the lie that you did it on your own
But don't worry
I'll be there to help you share our dark eternal home

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As day slips into day
The magazines, the newspapers
Print every word I say
This world is just my spinning top
It's all like childs-play
You know, I dream that it will never stop
But I know it's not that way

Still my work goes on and on
Always stronger than before
I'm gonna make it dark before the dawn
Since no one believes in me anymore
Well now I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
You know, no one watches for my tricks
Since no one believes in me anymore

Well I'm gaining power by the hour
They're falling by the score
You know, it's getting very easy now
Since no one believes in me anymore
No one believes in me anymore
No one believes in me anymore

[JackC]

I beg to differ:

Ephesians 6:11-13 (New International Version)

11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.


Greeting god rules,

Note that I did not say that evil does not exist, but that evil does not exist in Life, in God.

Evil is certainly a force that must be contended with while we live in this world - a world of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We chose to partake of this tree, and so a world of good and evil, a world of our chosing, came into existence.

We must also remember that Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world of good and evil.

Once we understand what Life is (and that it is not here!) and what Truth and freedom are, we will understand what evil is, what its purpose is, and how it manipulates, fools, and uses us. Then we will see how we must stand firm against evil.

While we are in this world, a part of this world, we must make choices - we must choose this over that. And Paul often gives good advice on how to make the right choices. But this is not liberation. This is learning how to best survive in bondage, until we find the Truth. And Jesus incarnated into this world is a manifestation of Truth, is Truth. He became Truth. (If we want to know what Truth is, all we have to do is look at the life and teachings of Jesus - this was Truth manifested in this world.)

The path to liberation from the tree of good and evil is walked by following Christ, walking as he did. Walking the path of Truth. Christ will show us the way to liberation from this world of choice, this world that must be maneuvered through, to find the place of Grace, where we know longer participate in self will choices, but wait only for God.

Upon the alone, my soul waits in silence.

Jesus taught us how to endure evil, which does not mean to battle, but to come to the place of ultimate surrender.

It is a process though, which is why the Bible seems contradictory. Some instruction is for the those just beginning the process and some is for those at the end.

The key is to walk in obedience to the guidance of Christ. The first step is to emulate His walk.

To tie this into unending torment - unending torment is referring to existence in a world of good and evil, existence in a world of suffering. The deeper we become trapped, the more we will suffer, and eventually if we cannot find the Way to Life, the Way out of this outer darkness, the Way to the point of Grace - of no longer participating in choice, but waiting silently for God, He will mercifully bring the existence of our soul to an end, in what is referred to as the second death.



Jack

[JackC]

Dear jackc and mickiel
respectfully, What do you base your beliefs on?


There is a scripture that speaks to the source of my understanding...

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.



If we walk as Jesus walked, keeping His Word, we will come to see this world as He saw it, we will understand the world, our life in this world, as Christ understands it.

We will eventually come to understand all that Christ understands [edited to add: few though have ever reached this place!]

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Freedom from sin comes when we find the Truth, when we see and understand as Jesus did.

He wants to show us, just follow Him

If you are not becoming free then you are not walking the right path. [edited to add: the sorrow of Christ is great because so few have walked as he instructed sufficiently in order that they might just begin to understand sin and freedom from sin.]




Jack

[mickiel]

My beliefs are still being broken, and being rebuilt and renewed, but all of them come directly from the bible, which I view as a major source of Spiritual Revelation and insight.

I say broken, because I was rasied by Christian people in a Christian church. The direction God has willed for me, is not that path, so he has broken me away from Christianity, because its far too limited , he has desires for me to see how unlimited he really is. Birds of a feather flock together, I am a different kind of bird, so I best walk alone. God did the same thing to me amoungst the Universalist group, he didnot want me with them either. I just can't get along with anyone Spiritually, I literally disagree with every group on earth, and thats just telling the truth. There is no group I favor anymore, including Universalist, I don't like a lot of their views either.

So my path is alone. But I view the paths of all created humanity to be this, and its the Last recorded verse in the bible, Rev.22:19;" The Grace of the Lord Jesus be with ALL MEN!" That is the destiny of all men, to be with God and Jesus, and their " GRACE" to be with us.

And , you know, we need that from them because we are so weak minded, so frail in our belief, so much in dire need of their forgiveness and pardon.

I have just discovered a prescious stone of great value, that the above mentioned is exactly what Jesus and God are going to do. And I value the stone. It has become the cornerstone of my belief.

Peace.

[JackC]

My beliefs are still being broken, and being rebuilt and renewed, but all of them come directly from the bible, which I view as a major source of Spiritual Revelation and insight.

I say broken, because I was rasied by Christian people in a Christian church. The direction God has willed for me, is not that path, so he has broken me away from Christianity, because its far too limited , he has desires for me to see how unlimited he really is. Birds of a feather flock together, I am a different kind of bird, so I best walk alone. God did the same thing to me amoungst the Universalist group, he didnot want me with them either. I just can't get along with anyone Spiritually, I literally disagree with every group on earth, and thats just telling the truth. There is no group I favor anymore, including Universalist, I don't like a lot of their views either.

So my path is alone. But I view the paths of all created humanity to be this, and its the Last recorded verse in the bible, Rev.22:19;" The Grace of the Lord Jesus be with ALL MEN!" That is the destiny of all men, to be with God and Jesus, and their " GRACE" to be with us.

And , you know, we need that from them because we are so weak minded, so frail in our belief, so much in dire need of their forgiveness and pardon.

I have just discovered a prescious stone of great value, that the above mentioned is exactly what Jesus and God are going to do. And I value the stone. It has become the cornerstone of my belief.

Peace.

Hello Mickiel,

All our revelations from God are as precious stones!

It is a joy to encounter one who seeks right understanding, no matter the costs. Few are able to do so, to seek and find, because it will cost them everything, including their very lives.

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Jesus

I understand what you mean by broken - my understanding was also been, and continues to be, broken down daily. I use to see truth as a puzzle and God's precious stones as pieces of the puzzle. It was not until He threw my puzzle board away, revealing that it was my limited boxed-in intellect (lucifer works to keep our minds boxed-in, the walls or bars being our fears and desires, which is why we cannot begin to understand God until these have begun to be crucified) that was in error.

We cannot put new wine into old wine skins just as God cannot reveal or give greater understanding to an old receptacle.

We must be emptied and made new, not just once, but again and again, or else we will be building on faulty foundations and eventually all will come crashing down - and the bigger our tower of limitations or intellectual babbling, the greater the fall.

And eghads, being broken daily hurts! As Jesus said the way is difficult and few can walk it.

Keep walking, mickiel, and remember - although there are few of us, we are never alone.




Jack

[mickiel]

Hello Mickiel,



We cannot put new wine into old wine skins just as God cannot reveal or give greater understanding to an old receptacle.

We must be emptied and made new, not just once, but again and again, or else we will be building on faulty foundations and eventually all will come crashing down - and the bigger our tower of limitations or intellectual babbling, the greater the fall.

And eghads, being broken daily hurts! As Jesus said the way is difficult and few can walk it.

Keep walking, mickiel, and remember - although there are few of us, we are never alone.




Jack



Greetings,

Well I certainly agree with what you have written. One reason I think that we must be broken, is because we have so much dislocation from the truth that have been molded within us, that has " Set In" like a cast that grows harder with time. It was mixed and molded before we were born, and we were literally born into a cast which set our forefathers into fixed patterns of belief and understanding. And that mixture was passed down through our generations.

We get stuck on self, stuck on doctrines, stuck on books, stuck on traditions, and stuck on being stuck, then we create religions from these points that we are stuck on, and wonder why we find it very hard to change. Because of this delima in our history, we have tried to " Develop, while we are stuck, or in slavery to these things." This greatly effects our " Freedom", we just don't know how to be free. So when we experience any kind of freedom, we handle it through a mindSET of slavery. Although we get introduced to a limited form of freedom, we really hold too many roots of our slavery, to really know what freedom is.

Some of us get some limited freedom, then we go wild in our beliefs, and continue creating doctrines that are just as wild as our inability to handle the freedom. Because we are still off balance, even in our experience with a little freedom. This is why I believe that the true freedom we need is invested in the freedom of Christ, that is freedom Indeed!

And I have seen this in myself, a constant revealing and breaking of molds that have a hold on me. It seems endless. Because thats just how much I have been cast into these molds of slavery. I know that I need God, and I know the whole world needs him.

And thats just how it is.

Peace to you.

[JackC]

Greetings,

Well I certainly agree with what you have written. One reason I think that we must be broken, is because we have so much dislocation from the truth that have been molded within us, that has " Set In" like a cast that grows harder with time. It was mixed and molded before we were born, and we were literally born into a cast which set our forefathers into fixed patterns of belief and understanding. And that mixture was passed down through our generations.

We get stuck on self, stuck on doctrines, stuck on books, stuck on traditions, and stuck on being stuck, then we create religions from these points that we are stuck on, and wonder why we find it very hard to change. Because of this delima in our history, we have tried to " Develop, while we are stuck, or in slavery to these things." This greatly effects our " Freedom", we just don't know how to be free. So when we experience any kind of freedom, we handle it through a mindSET of slavery. Although we get introduced to a limited form of freedom, we really hold too many roots of our slavery, to really know what freedom is.

Some of us get some limited freedom, then we go wild in our beliefs, and continue creating doctrines that are just as wild as our inability to handle the freedom. Because we are still off balance, even in our experience with a little freedom. This is why I believe that the true freedom we need is invested in the freedom of Christ, that is freedom Indeed!

And I have seen this in myself, a constant revealing and breaking of molds that have a hold on me. It seems endless. Because thats just how much I have been cast into these molds of slavery. I know that I need God, and I know the whole world needs him.

And thats just how it is.

Peace to you.

Indeed mickiel!

This is just how it is.

Wow. I am not sure what to say in return. So seldom do I encounter anyone who has taken this step in wisdom - seeing the truth about ourselves is the beginning of understanding.

I have so much to share, if you would wish to commune.



Jack

[mickiel]

Indeed mickiel!

This is just how it is.

Wow. I am not sure what to say in return. So seldom do I encounter anyone who has taken this step in wisdom - seeing the truth about ourselves is the beginning of understanding.

I have so much to share, if you would wish to commune.



Jack



One of the main ingredients of wisdom, is simply knowing how it is. For example, I have learned not to personally insult people, while at the crossroads of communication. I know that shouldnot be done and I know why it is done. I know I have done it before, and I understand what it leads to,thats how I learned it was wrong. I have come to know that I do not need to break down peoples characther, just because I do not agree with them, I can go after the target of their belief, and break that down. And thats what I think the bible will do, its what the truth will do, it will break down the chains of the Darkness that binds us.

One individual here told me that I give Scriptures in little installments, and try to make big statements with them. I certainly agree with that, because its how I am learning the truth. Here a little, there a little, precept upon precept, line upon line, Isaiah 28:10. In verse 8 the prophet said that all the tables are full of filthy vomit, " Without a single clean place." And people have eaten this stuff about God. Vs. 9, " To whom then would he teach Knowledge and to whom then would he interpit the message? Those just Weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast?"

Indeed God will speak to this kind of person, through stammering lips and a foreign tounge. Look at verse 13, the word of the Lord will be given like this to people, a little here, a little there. Why? Latter part of verse;" That they may stumble BACKWARD, be BROKEN, snared and taken captive." This is exactly what the truth will do to you. It will totally effect your life and throw it into turmoil. It will break every single false doctrine that is in you. It will grab a hold of you and willnot let you loose. And you will feel like getting loose from it many times. It is then that you will know that its not your will, that there is no free will, but Gods will is what will happen.

And people will call you names, call you a fool, but it is the fools that God will call, he will use these to confound the wise. He will deal with the weak of the world, and I am not making any of this up, its all in scripture. Its really there, but its not there for everyone to see.

As long as you hold to the Spirit you have in your communication, we most certainly can continue. I will listen and respond to everything you say.

Peace.

[JackC]

Greetings mickiel,

It is rare that I encounter a fellow sojourner!

One of the main ingredients of wisdom, is simply knowing how it is. For example, I have learned not to personally insult people, while at the crossroads of communication. I know that shouldnot be done and I know why it is done. I know I have done it before, and I understand what it leads to,thats how I learned it was wrong. I have come to know that I do not need to break down peoples characther, just because I do not agree with them, I can go after the target of their belief, and break that down. And thats what I think the bible will do, its what the truth will do, it will break down the chains of the Darkness that binds us.

We do not find such knowledge through intellectual ruminations – because the self will kick and scream and refuse to see and accept these verities. Such is only found through experiential knowing, by walking the path.

And don’t you find afterwards, after the inner experiencing, that scripture becomes clear and obvious, and then you find yourself wondering why you did not see such before?

Why everyone cannot see?

One example in my own journey is with these scriptures...

John 3

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

I learned in church that belief in the son is believing in the historical facts of Jesus – that he was born, lived, taught, was crucified and was resurrected as told in the gospels.

Yet after being broken, I realized that Jesus is quite clear here regarding what he means by belief!

Blessed are the poor in Spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who know their own spiritual poverty, those who have been broken, who realize they are nothing, that they know nothing.


Have you found what I found, mickiel? That Scripture is just what it says it is – a testament, a witness of others’ journeys in Truth? It does not work well as an intellectual treatise – most often leading to confusion and contradiction, or as fodder for debating which only serves to feed one’s ego.

I found that as I walked the same path as the authors, Scripture opened up and became a witness, giving understanding and confirmation to the path I was on.

I began to understand what the authors wrote because I was experiencing and seeing the same which had been seen and experienced by them.


One individual here told me that I give Scriptures in little installments, and try to make big statements with them. I certainly agree with that, because its how I am learning the truth. Here a little, there a little, precept upon precept, line upon line, Isaiah 28:10.

It has been the same for me, mickiel.

Scripture is a text book, a manual, used by the Teacher to teach us – a little at a time as we are able to Hear.

There can though come a time when He breaks us completely, and only then do we really begin to See.

Though You slay me, I will trust You.

3You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6 Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”


-Job
In verse 8 the prophet said that all the tables are full of filthy vomit, " Without a single clean place." And people have eaten this stuff about God. Vs. 9, " To whom then would he teach Knowledge and to whom then would he interpit the message? Those just Weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast?"

Yes, good verses.

Both Isaiah and Ezekiel spoke to me in my journey.

I also found that they shared prophecy regarding what man does again and again through out history.

God sends Messengers of Light, who bring True Teachings into this world. But again and again, darkness overcomes and the True Teachings are trampled and contaminated and the Light is snuffed out.

This happened to Israel and the Light brought to her through Moses and the Prophets, as it happened again with Jesus and the Light he brought into this world.


Isaiah 34: 17 ‘And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture—and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.”

This was true then, and is just as true now.

The leaders of Christianity have trampled the fields, beginning a few hundred years after the death of Jesus. So that the food they offer their flocks has been trampled with selfishness, contaminated, filled with falsity and misunderstanding.


Indeed God will speak to this kind of person, through stammering lips and a foreign tounge. Look at verse 13, the word of the Lord will be given like this to people, a little here, a little there. Why? Latter part of verse;" That they may stumble BACKWARD, be BROKEN, snared and taken captive." This is exactly what the truth will do to you. It will totally effect your life and throw it into turmoil. It will break every single false doctrine that is in you. It will grab a hold of you and willnot let you loose. And you will feel like getting loose from it many times. It is then that you will know that its not your will, that there is no free will, but Gods will is what will happen.

I wish it did not have to be this way, mickiel, but humanity has wandered so far from God, so that the only Way back is through destruction. We must be broken and again and again, repent in dust and ashes.

Unfortunately though it is fallen man’s nature to save himself, to avoid any and all suffering, if possible. Doing so, protecting self in this way, is actually protecting self from the purging Fires of Light.

Protecting self in this way is protecting the darkness that is in us.

Those who seek Truth, those who love Truth at all costs, desire to have the darkness in them revealed and purged and will not rest until they are clean.

Those who love darkness run from the Light and suffer from delusion, about them selves and about this world.

2 Thessalonians 2: And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Truth is that the lawless one is the darkness within us. Those who do not love Truth above all else, prefer to believe the lie about them selves and this world.

They prefer to live a delusion than to live Truth.

They prefer life in hell over Life everlasting

And by not believing, by not coming to the Light to have their inner darkness revealed, they are already condemned to living the lie.


And people will call you names, call you a fool, but it is the fools that God will call, he will use these to confound the wise. He will deal with the weak of the world, and I am not making any of this up, its all in scripture. Its really there, but its not there for everyone to see.

As long as you hold to the Spirit you have in your communication, we most certainly can continue. I will listen and respond to everything you say.

Peace.

I am sorry that it has come to this, but those who follow after Christ have nothing to look forward to in this world, except condemnation by a world which hates them.

Although few are able to walk this difficult path, as shared, we are never alone.

Peace to you, mickiel.




Jack

[mickiel]

Greetings mickiel,

It is rare that I encounter a fellow sojourner!



Jack



Well the path I walk, I walk alone, such is my destiny. I owe no alligence to any particular group or person, nor do I join in with either. My path is alone, and I am okay with that. But I will agree with what I agree with in anyone along the way.

My direction in life, is mine, and mine to walk, and I seek no one to walk it with me. I take little concern with where people are going or what path they are on. My minds eye has seen the Salvation of the Lord, I already know where mens paths are leading them, I already know their destiny.

We all are going to be with God, and so shall we ever be with him, Life without end!

Peace.

[god rules]

We get stuck on self, stuck on doctrines, stuck on books, stuck on traditions, and stuck on being stuck, then we create religions from these points that we are stuck on, and wonder why we find it very hard to change. Because of this delima in our history, we have tried to " Develop, while we are stuck, or in slavery to these things." This greatly effects our " Freedom", we just don't know how to be free. So when we experience any kind of freedom, we handle it through a mindSET of slavery. Although we get introduced to a limited form of freedom, we really hold too many roots of our slavery, to really know what freedom is.

Some of us get some limited freedom, then we go wild in our beliefs, and continue creating doctrines that are just as wild as our inability to handle the freedom. Because we are still off balance, even in our experience with a little freedom. This is why I believe that the true freedom we need is invested in the freedom of Christ, that is freedom Indeed!

Paul said that walking according to the Spirit is NOT license:
an excessive or undisciplined freedom constituting an abuse of privilege.
Being led by the spirit doesn't mean you are free to do anything you want to do. It means you are finally free to live a responsible, moral life-- something you are incapable of doing when you are a prisoner of your flesh.
What appears to be freedom to some people isn't really freedom, but a return to bondage.
Galatians 5
Freedom in Christ
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

God's laws, from which we seek to be free, are not restrictive, but protective. Your real freedom is your ability to choose to live responsibly within the context of the protective guidelines God has established for our lives.
Walking by the spirit is also NOT legalism, the opposite extreme from license.
Paul said:
16. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

[god rules]

We get stuck on self, stuck on doctrines, stuck on books, stuck on traditions, and stuck on being stuck, then we create religions from these points that we are stuck on, and wonder why we find it very hard to change. Because of this delima in our history, we have tried to " Develop, while we are stuck, or in slavery to these things." This greatly effects our " Freedom", we just don't know how to be free. So when we experience any kind of freedom, we handle it through a mindSET of slavery. Although we get introduced to a limited form of freedom, we really hold too many roots of our slavery, to really know what freedom is.

Some of us get some limited freedom, then we go wild in our beliefs, and continue creating doctrines that are just as wild as our inability to handle the freedom. Because we are still off balance, even in our experience with a little freedom. This is why I believe that the true freedom we need is invested in the freedom of Christ, that is freedom Indeed!

Paul said that walking according to the Spirit is NOT license:
an excessive or undisciplined freedom constituting an abuse of privilege.
Being led by the spirit doesn't mean you are free to do anything you want to do. It means you are finally free to live a responsible, moral life-- something you are incapable of doing when you are a prisoner of your flesh.
What appears to be freedom to some people isn't really freedom, but a return to bondage.
Galatians 5
Freedom in Christ
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

God's laws, from which we seek to be free, are not restrictive, but protective. Your real freedom is your ability to choose to live responsibly within the context of the protective guidelines God has established for our lives.
Walking by the spirit is also NOT legalism, the opposite extreme from license.
Paul said:
16. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

[mickiel]

Paul said that walking according to the Spirit is NOT license:
an excessive or undisciplined freedom constituting an abuse of privilege.
Being led by the spirit doesn't mean you are free to do anything you want to do. It means you are finally free to live a responsible, moral life-- something you are incapable of doing when you are a prisoner of your flesh.
What appears to be freedom to some people isn't really freedom, but a return to bondage.
Galatians 5
Freedom in Christ
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

God's laws, from which we seek to be free, are not restrictive, but protective. Your real freedom is your ability to choose to live responsibly within the context of the protective guidelines God has established for our lives.
Walking by the spirit is also NOT legalism, the opposite extreme from license.
Paul said:
16. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.



There is no need for me to concern myself with Gods laws, nor the opinons of christians, my future is already determined, my life already predestined, my inheritance already sealed, nothing can mess that up because its sealed in heaven, where the misguided condemnation of christians cannot steal it from me.

And so it is with every human.

This is why I do not like talking with christians, its like talking to a judge that loves to condemn the people.

Peace.

[god rules]

There is no need for me to concern myself with Gods laws, nor the opinons of christians, my future is already determined, my life already predestined, my inheritance already sealed, nothing can mess that up because its sealed in heaven, where the misguided condemnation of christians cannot steal it from me.

And so it is with every human.

This is why I do not like talking with christians, its like talking to a judge that loves to condemn the people.

Peace.
None of that has anything to do with condemnation or judgement. It speaks of the freedom we have in Christ when we walk in his spirit.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The law(legalism) is condemnation. By his spirit we are free from the bondage of sin(slave to sin). There is no condemnation in Christ.
You are misunderstanding the message my friend.

[mickiel]

None of that has anything to do with condemnation or judgement. It speaks of the freedom we have in Christ when we walk in his spirit.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The law(legalism) is condemnation. By his spirit we are free from the bondage of sin(slave to sin). There is no condemnation in Christ.
You are misunderstanding the message my friend.



I am not misunderstanding your message, I am just not interested in it. I find christian interpitation to be quite disturbing and unsettling.

Two things that the gospel never should contain.

Peace.

[Lost]

None of that has anything to do with condemnation or judgement. It speaks of the freedom we have in Christ when we walk in his spirit.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The law(legalism) is condemnation. By his spirit we are free from the bondage of sin(slave to sin). There is no condemnation in Christ.
You are misunderstanding the message my friend.

God's laws are not condemnation at all - they are a useful guide - how would your country go without laws lol.
God's laws are not a burden neither are they hard to follow and if we should sin then, if we are truly repentant then God forgives us - what the heck is wrong with this?
Only the lawless do away with God's laws.

[god rules]

I am not misunderstanding your message, I am just not interested in it. I find christian interpitation to be quite disturbing and unsettling.

Two things that the gospel never should contain.

Peace.
First of all it is not MY message, it is the message of JESUS.

Deuteronomy 11:1
[ Love and Obey the LORD ] Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

Deuteronomy 6:25
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."

If you claim to be a follower of JESUS, then you can see in the scripture that he calls us to obey his laws. This isn't interpitation but the word of god in truth.
Also why is obedience disturbing to you? If you have a child, should they not obey you as a parent? To me it would be more disturbing if they shunnned your discipline. This would cause disharmony in your life and home.

1 Samuel 15:21-23 (New International Version)
22 But Samuel replied:
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
We see here in scripture that God says obedience is more important then sacrifice.

[Lazarus]

I am not misunderstanding your message, I am just not interested in it. I find christian interpitation to be quite disturbing and unsettling.

Two things that the gospel never should contain.

Peace.

You've got to be kidding! The Gospel should be disturbing and unsettling to the extreme! If you're not willing to let the message of Christ disturb your settled and comfortable mindset, then it's best you listen to someone or something a bit less challenging. Have you checked out the Wicca site?

[mickiel]

You've got to be kidding! The Gospel should be disturbing and unsettling to the extreme! If you're not willing to let the message of Christ disturb your settled and comfortable mindset, then it's best you listen to someone or something a bit less challenging. Have you checked out the Wicca site?




You see, this is the root of the Christian mentality, they think the Gospel should be disturbing and unsettleing. Because THEIR gospel is mostly about the horrors of eternal hell, and THEIR conversion is the motivation not to go to such a place, so Christianitys gospel is mostly a survival of the fittest, a mind fit enough to choose not to go to hell. This is not the gospel.

The Gospel is Good News for all of humanity. The Gospel will describe Gods Grace, Gods Goodness, Gods Kindness, Gods Longsuffering, Gods Patience, Gods Self Control, Gods Love and Joy, and it will perfectly describe Gods Gentleness. All these are the fruits of the Spirit, which all describe God, and all these will perfectly describe what the Gospel is.

The total forgiveness of all of humanity is REQUIRED if all are to be saved. If all are to be saved, then COMPLETTE UNCONDITIONAL Kindness, Goodness And Gentleness of God is REQUIRED. If all sin, all quilt is to be excused, that REQUIRES a God of Perfect Self Control and Perfect forgiving Love.

This is the True Gospel, IT is the Good News to humanity.

This Explains the Gospel and God.

Peace.

[Lazarus]

You see, this is the root of the Christian mentality, they think the Gospel should be disturbing and unsettleing. Because THEIR gospel is mostly about the horrors of eternal hell, and THEIR conversion is the motivation not to go to such a place, so Christianitys gospel is mostly a survival of the fittest, a mind fit enough to choose not to go to hell. This is not the gospel.

The Gospel is Good News for all of humanity. The Gospel will describe Gods Grace, Gods Goodness, Gods Kindness, Gods Longsuffering, Gods Patience, Gods Self Control, Gods Love and Joy, and it will perfectly describe Gods Gentleness. All these are the fruits of the Spirit, which all describe God, and all these will perfectly describe what the Gospel is.

The total forgiveness of all of humanity is REQUIRED if all are to be saved. If all are to be saved, then COMPLETTE UNCONDITIONAL Kindness, Goodness And Gentleness of God is REQUIRED. If all sin, all quilt is to be excused, that REQUIRES a God of Perfect Self Control and Perfect forgiving Love.

This is the True Gospel, IT is the Good News to humanity.

This Explains the Gospel and God.

Peace.

The Gospel should be disturbing and unsettling to us not because we fear the damnation of hell but because it calls us to change, to repent of our sins and to imitate the love of the Father in our relations with others. It calls us to cast aside selfishness and to become selfless, to love perfectly as our heavenly Father has loved us. Living in such a way is only done through the grace of God, and though it brings joy it is not completed without struggle. Living the Gospel requires sacrifice and a radical commitment to love. The good news of the Gospel is that God is with us. He sacrifices with us. God loves us.
Your understanding of what motivates Christians baffles me. Most Christians I know are not believers because they fear hell. Their faith is joyful, not fearful. Perhaps you need to shut off your computer and go outside and actually meet committed Christians who try to live their faith in a world that is often hostile to them. Ask them why they believe in the Gospel. I seriously doubt that "Because I'm afraid of hell" will be a top 10 reason.

[Lost]

The Gospel should be disturbing and unsettling to us not because we fear the damnation of hell but because it calls us to change, to repent of our sins and to imitate the love of the Father in our relations with others. It calls us to cast aside selfishness and to become selfless, to love perfectly as our heavenly Father has loved us. Living in such a way is only done through the grace of God, and though it brings joy it is not completed without struggle. Living the Gospel requires sacrifice and a radical commitment to love. The good news of the Gospel is that God is with us. He sacrifices with us. God loves us.
Your understanding of what motivates Christians baffles me. Most Christians I know are not believers because they fear hell. Their faith is joyful, not fearful. Perhaps you need to shut off your computer and go outside and actually meet committed Christians who try to live their faith in a world that is often hostile to them. Ask them why they believe in the Gospel. I seriously doubt that "Because I'm afraid of hell" will be a top 10 reason.

We weren't given an instinct for survival AND an understanding of our own mortality and eternity perchance.
It is a powerful motivator at least - don't underestimate it or the value of it.
It motivates us to search and without searching noone finds God - He doesn't exactly greet us at birth lol - He should tho.

[mickiel]

The Gospel should be disturbing and unsettling to us not because we fear the damnation of hell but because it calls us to change, to repent of our sins and to imitate the love of the Father in our relations with others. It calls us to cast aside selfishness and to become selfless, to love perfectly as our heavenly Father has loved us. Living in such a way is only done through the grace of God, and though it brings joy it is not completed without struggle. Living the Gospel requires sacrifice and a radical commitment to love. The good news of the Gospel is that God is with us. He sacrifices with us. God loves us.
Your understanding of what motivates Christians baffles me. Most Christians I know are not believers because they fear hell. Their faith is joyful, not fearful. Perhaps you need to shut off your computer and go outside and actually meet committed Christians who try to live their faith in a world that is often hostile to them. Ask them why they believe in the Gospel. I seriously doubt that "Because I'm afraid of hell" will be a top 10 reason.



Shut off my computer, Why? Are not the Christians here adequant or sufficant enough for me to view their characther and belief on display? No. You are sufficant enough for me to KNOW Christianity, you are avialible to me, how YOU think is enough for me. Your witness is all the guage I need. The rest of them are just like YOU, thats how important a witness is. YOU must hold the example of your belief, not others.

You think something disturbing and unsettling needs to occur in order for Repentance to be effective or real, not knowing within yourself that the " Goodness of God", is what really leads one to repent. Romans 2:4, The KINDNESS and patience of God is what biblically leads to repentance. Many of you are not teaching this because it WAS not YOUR experience. YOU had to be crushed, YOU had to be punished, YOU had to be broken and heartache had to occur, so YOU are teaching that is how EVERYONE must be done.

And YOU carry it even futher, YOU believe that one must be punished in order to repent, and you are teaching that the punishment will NEVER stop, as if the Loving God is some kind of sadistical pervert.

Oh God forgive us, we know not what we are doing.

Peace.

[Lazarus]

We weren't given an instinct for survival AND an understanding of our own mortality and eternity perchance.
It is a powerful motivator at least - don't underestimate it or the value of it.
It motivates us to search and without searching noone finds God - He doesn't exactly greet us at birth lol - He should tho.

I agree that fear can be a starting point in our search for God, but I have never found the fear of hell to be a valuable tool, so to speak, in my experience of God. I've always felt that fear is almost always of the devil and tends to get in the way of a positive understanding of God's love for humanity. I don't believe it is God's will that we feel fear in our relationship with him or that we turn to him in fear. Christianity is a positive faith because God calls to us in love. It is in response to God's love for us that we should turn to him in love. I understand that fear can lead some to seek God, but it would be a misunderstanding of Christianity if the believer simply left it there. Fear, for the mature believer, must give way to trust and trust leads to understanding. What we should understand is that God desires a positive, growing relationship with us based in love. Any relationship based in fear of punishment or retribution can only degrade and is ultimately dead. This is a description of the relationship Satan desires to have with us, not the one God hopes for.

[Lost]

I agree that fear can be a starting point in our search for God, but I have never found the fear of hell to be a valuable tool, so to speak, in my experience of God. I've always felt that fear is almost always of the devil and tends to get in the way of a positive understanding of God's love for humanity. I don't believe it is God's will that we feel fear in our relationship with him or that we turn to him in fear. Christianity is a positive faith because God calls to us in love. It is in response to God's love for us that we should turn to him in love. I understand that fear can lead some to seek God, but it would be a misunderstanding of Christianity if the believer simply left it there. Fear, for the mature believer, must give way to trust and trust leads to understanding. What we should understand is that God desires a positive, growing relationship with us based in love. Any relationship based in fear of punishment or retribution can only degrade and is ultimately dead. This is a description of the relationship Satan desires to have with us, not the one God hopes for.

"The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom".
The relationship that seems to exist between man and God is a pathetic one anyway.
Almost no communication except via ancient unreliable wierd texts.
Oh well beggars can't be chooses as they say and we certainly aren't exactly in the box seat.
Of course some will now expound their wonderful relationship that they have with their creator - but it is all rubbish.

[Lazarus]

Shut off my computer, Why? Are not the Christians here adequant or sufficant enough for me to view their characther and belief on display? No. You are sufficant enough for me to KNOW Christianity, you are avialible to me, how YOU think is enough for me. Your witness is all the guage I need. The rest of them are just like YOU, thats how important a witness is. YOU must hold the example of your belief, not others.

You think something disturbing and unsettling needs to occur in order for Repentance to be effective or real, not knowing within yourself that the " Goodness of God", is what really leads one to repent. Romans 2:4, The KINDNESS and patience of God is what biblically leads to repentance. Many of you are not teaching this because it WAS not YOUR experience. YOU had to be crushed, YOU had to be punished, YOU had to be broken and heartache had to occur, so YOU are teaching that is how EVERYONE must be done.

And YOU carry it even futher, YOU believe that one must be punished in order to repent, and you are teaching that the punishment will NEVER stop, as if the Loving God is some kind of sadistical pervert.

Oh God forgive us, we know not what we are doing.

Peace.

My, we are a bit high strung, aren't we?
First of all, yes, turn off your computer and go talk to people face to face. As enlightening as some folks on this website are, a person's faith can only be adequately viewed in the way they live their life in their day to day activities, not merely in the words they write on a computer screen. You do not know me and I am not available to you because I write something to you in this forum, no matter how honest or true (or dishonest or false) my words may be. I feel sad that you would judge my life and my faith merely on account of words. Believe me, there's a lot more to know.
Secondly, I will be the first person to admit that I am a poor witness for Christianity. Please, please do not judge the Christian faith based merely on my witness. You will be doing a great disservice to the many good Christians, many, I'm sure, on this site, who are greater servants and witnesses to the Lord than I can ever hope to be. At most I would say that I try to be a Christian, but often fall short in my efforts. It is with shame and sorrow for my sins, and great relief, that I acknowledge that God is a God of love who accepts our genuine repentance and will always gather us in "as a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings" and receive us back just as the father of the prodigal son received his son back into his home.
Thirdly, I do not believe that "something disturbing and unsettling needs to occur for repentance to be effective or real." I entered into this discussion by simply making an observation that the Gospel of Jesus is disturbing and unsettling because it calls us to love in the same way the Father first loved us. This is disturbing and unsettling because it means that we must discard selfishness and become selfless, we must think of others before ourselves, we must strive to relieve the suffering of others, we must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, grant justice to strangers and foreigners in our midst, take care of widows and orphans, care for the sick, love our enemies and wish them well, and do many things which even go against our own interests. If you do not think doing these things disturbs your way of life or unsettles your normal way of thinking about things, then I bow to you with deep respect. You are much closer to the kingdom of God than I am.

[Lazarus]

"The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom".
The relationship that seems to exist between man and God is a pathetic one anyway.
Almost no communication except via ancient unreliable wierd texts.
Oh well beggars can't be chooses as they say and we certainly aren't exactly in the box seat.
Of course some will now expound their wonderful relationship that they have with their creator - but it is all rubbish.

If by this quote you mean "Terror of God is the beginning of wisdom", then I disagree with your understanding of it. Fear, in this context, has a variety of meanings, most prominent among them being "respect for." And besides, this quote is not applicable to what we were discussing before. I was discussing a fear of hell as inadequate in helping us understand God's love for us, not a fear of God.

Judging from the rest of your message, I would agree that your relationship with God does indeed seem "pathetic." I can also understand why you label yourself as "Lost" if you believe there is no communication with God except through unreliable texts. My previous writings should leave you with no doubt that I profoundly disagree with you. And, of course, I also disagree that we don't have a choice in our relationship with God. We do have a choice. In fact, God desires a free, loving relationship with us, not a slave relationship. But then it doesn't really matter, does it? You've already judged that everyone else's relationship with God must be (or should be) as miserable as yours seems to be. It's all rubbish, right? Well, I agree that there is much rubbish about what you have written and I'll just leave it at that.

[Lost]

If by this quote you mean "Terror of God is the beginning of wisdom", then I disagree with your understanding of it. Fear, in this context, has a variety of meanings, most prominent among them being "respect for." And besides, this quote is not applicable to what we were discussing before. I was discussing a fear of hell as inadequate in helping us understand God's love for us, not a fear of God.

Judging from the rest of your message, I would agree that your relationship with God does indeed seem "pathetic." I can also understand why you label yourself as "Lost" if you believe there is no communication with God except through unreliable texts. My previous writings should leave you with no doubt that I profoundly disagree with you. And, of course, I also disagree that we don't have a choice in our relationship with God. We do have a choice. In fact, God desires a free, loving relationship with us, not a slave relationship. But then it doesn't really matter, does it? You've already judged that everyone else's relationship with God must be (or should be) as miserable as yours seems to be. It's all rubbish, right? Well, I agree that there is much rubbish about what you have written and I'll just leave it at that.

Look I have been around a long time, have met and related to many christians at all sorts of levels. I have not met any that can tell me honestly that they have ever had a better relationship than I have had - sure some may preach from the pulpit that they have had some fantastic experiences but there ya go - I don't take much stock in pulpits.

The everyday christians that I know just get on and do their daily jobs like me and don't hear a dam thing from God - well that maybe the way it's supposed to be but I think it sucks.

I guess I won't have to wonder too much longer anyway all will be clear soon - we are all only here for a very short time and don't really leave knowing much more than when we arrived tho some seem to delude themselves into thinking that they do.

Of course the "fear" of God is respect and a reverant fear - not some sort of response to terror - who would consider otherwise.
However you must admit that in times past and not always past, there have been many a sermon preached on the fires of hell etc - don't tell me you have never heard of them - the threat of eternal punishment is the old overdone bottom line of christianity - woe to those who don't convert for they shall rot in hell kind of stuff.
I didn't exactly invent the concept lol.

[god rules]

Look I have been around a long time, have met and related to many christians at all sorts of levels. I have not met any that can tell me honestly that they have ever had a better relationship than I have had - sure some may preach from the pulpit that they have had some fantastic experiences but there ya go - I don't take much stock in pulpits.

The everyday christians that I know just get on and do their daily jobs like me and don't hear a dam thing from God - well that maybe the way it's supposed to be but I think it sucks.

I guess I won't have to wonder too much longer anyway all will be clear soon - we are all only here for a very short time and don't really leave knowing much more than when we arrived tho some seem to delude themselves into thinking that they do.

Of course the "fear" of God is respect and a reverant fear - not some sort of response to terror - who would consider otherwise.
However you must admit that in times past and not always past, there have been many a sermon preached on the fires of hell etc - don't tell me you have never heard of them - the threat of eternal punishment is the old overdone bottom line of christianity - woe to those who don't convert for they shall rot in hell kind of stuff.
I didn't exactly invent the concept lol.

I don't believe the focus of the christian message should be hell. Jesus does talk more about hell in the bible than heaven. The warning is done out of LOVE for us, not some sadistic wishing of torture on people. If that is what you think God is, you don't know him. I have found in my experience, the only way to get to know him is to get on your knees and seek him with a diligent heart. Ask him to reveal himself to you, and he will. His word says so and his word does not return void. The focus is a one on one relationship. God knows each one of us on an individual basis. He will speak to you in ways you never imagined but he will get your attention.

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:7
[ Ask, Seek, Knock ] "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

If any of you is unsure about the power of god in transforming lives, i would encourage you to check out the web site www.headtochrist.com and read the book by Brian "head" Welch titled "save me from myself". You can also view his testimony on youtube Part 1,2 and 3.

[mickiel]

My, we are a bit high strung, aren't we?
First of all, yes, turn off your computer and go talk to people face to face. As enlightening as some folks on this website are, a person's faith can only be adequately viewed in the way they live their life in their day to day activities, not merely in the words they write on a computer screen. You do not know me and I am not available to you because I write something to you in this forum, no matter how honest or true (or dishonest or false) my words may be. I feel sad that you would judge my life and my faith merely on account of words. Believe me, there's a lot more to know.
Secondly, I will be the first person to admit that I am a poor witness for Christianity. Please, please do not judge the Christian faith based merely on my witness. You will be doing a great disservice to the many good Christians, many, I'm sure, on this site, who are greater servants and witnesses to the Lord than I can ever hope to be. At most I would say that I try to be a Christian, but often fall short in my efforts. It is with shame and sorrow for my sins, and great relief, that I acknowledge that God is a God of love who accepts our genuine repentance and will always gather us in "as a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings" and receive us back just as the father of the prodigal son received his son back into his home.
Thirdly, I do not believe that "something disturbing and unsettling needs to occur for repentance to be effective or real." I entered into this discussion by simply making an observation that the Gospel of Jesus is disturbing and unsettling because it calls us to love in the same way the Father first loved us. This is disturbing and unsettling because it means that we must discard selfishness and become selfless, we must think of others before ourselves, we must strive to relieve the suffering of others, we must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, grant justice to strangers and foreigners in our midst, take care of widows and orphans, care for the sick, love our enemies and wish them well, and do many things which even go against our own interests. If you do not think doing these things disturbs your way of life or unsettles your normal way of thinking about things, then I bow to you with deep respect. You are much closer to the kingdom of God than I am.




Well,

Finally one of you is getting honest with yourself and others who read what you write, I can respect this response, although I still disagree with its content. I have already met Christians face to face, and been in their churchs, they are no different than they are online, the doctrines are the same. I think the written word explains itself better than the verbal, but thats just my opinion. I don't need to seek Christians out, because I am not under the delousion that they represent God on earth. Its kind of weird, the sheer gall of thinking that you represent God, the utter responsibility of that, which gets abused everyday by every Christian, no doubt.

As you describe repentance, you speak of selflessness, but out of your same mouth, you still list what the person must do themselves, as if self is the builder of repentance. Thats why I believe christianity is a self built house, modernday christianity that is, the original christians were different 2,000 years ago. They were totally reliant on faith, and the " Knew Nothing". Oh how much that has changed with the assualt of released knowledge on earth. Knowledge has increased, which means the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil has grown much larger. That tree is still growing, which means its root system is expanding. You think to be converted, we must strive to do this, and strive to do that, you think repentance and Spiritual living is a testement concerning what the persons have done or are doing, this is what is comming out of your mind, your heart, your words describe your belief. Its not based on what Christ has done, its based on what we now do. Oh how this thinking, this belief, is stuck in Christianity.

Once God calls an individual, and chooses them, he strengthens and settles them, and they are free, they are not deeply disturbed. The Characther produced by the Holy Spirit is not a deeply disturbed characther. The eyes of the heart become enlightened, and the good work began in you by God will be perfected. And this is GRANTED, Phil.1:29, not self will chosen. " For to you it has been GRANTED. What has been Granted? To BELIEVE in him, and suffer for him. Even belief in God must be granted and given by him, two things Christianity does not teach, you teach that the free will of a human grants itself the belief in God, that it is a choice. In Phil.2:13, " It is GOD who is at work in humans, granting them BOTH the WILL and ABILITY to do his pleasure, or his will." This is not free will independant choice produced by the prideful decision of a willing human to come to God and repent, it is GOD who produces the will to believe in him. The mere thought of repenting, AND the ability to repent COMES FROM GOD!

I don't care what kind of person will a human has, a " Human can receive NOTHING, unless it has been GRANTED him from above", John 3:27. And as in Heb.2:4, that giving of things are always according to Gods will, not human will or human doings.

The Christian life is unsettleing because it is not drawn on God, but on a religion based on a self improvement program, which would unsettle any life.

This is the true calling of God, 1Pet.5:10, you only suffer a little while, God will HIMSELF, Perfect, Confirm, Strengthen and establish you. There will be no disturbance within you. People are disturbed because God is NOT in their lives.

Peace.

[god rules]

You think to be converted, we must strive to do this, and strive to do that, you think repentance and Spiritual living is a testement concerning what the persons have done or are doing, this is what is comming out of your mind, your heart, your words describe your belief. Its not based on what Christ has done, its based on what we now do. Oh how this thinking, this belief, is stuck in Christianity.
The Christian life is unsettleing because it is not drawn on God, but on a religion based on a self improvement program, which would unsettle any life.

Some people think that to be a Christian means you can't see movies, that you can't dance, can't have a drink, or that you can't have any more fun. That isn't true. Christianity isn't about rules and regulations to follow. It is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
In the Old Testament times God gave the Law which had to be followed precisely. There were instructions about clothes, food, what you could or could not do on the Sabbath, what you had to do in the temple, how priests were to carry out their functions, how strangers were to be treated, how people were to be punished, etc. All these things were to be observed properly and precisely since all of them affected their standing before God. That was in Old Testament times, but now we have Jesus and the requirements of the Law are no longer necessary for us in order to please God.
Being a Christian means that you are changed on the inside, not controlled from the outside. It means that your heart has been changed by the presence of God. It does not mean that you are required to go to church, required to pay tithes, required to be good, required to do anything in order to stay a Christian. It means you desire to do those things because you've been changed.

Regeneration

Regeneration means that there has been an actual change in a person. When someone becomes a Christian by trusting in the sacrifice of Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins, then the Holy Spirit has come and lives in that person. Because the person has been changed from the inside, he does not desire to do those things that are contrary to God. Therefore, he will naturally desire to go to church. He will desire to be good, to be honest, etc. He does not go to church, or be good, or be honest, in order to be a Christian. He does those things because he already is one. It means that those things he desires to do change. He wants to change and wants to please God -- from the inside.
So, being a Christian means that you have encountered the true and living God and that you have undergone a change in your heart and soul. It means that you are not restricted to the Law's of right and wrong in order to please God because you cannot please God by what you do. God will only find pleasure in you through Jesus Christ.
To be a Christian means to follow Christ, to desire Him, to fellowship with Him, to be indwelt by Him, and to bring glory to Him in your life.

[god rules]

To Mickiel:
I respect the fact that you have issues with some "so called" christians. Respectfully, what you perceive Christianity to be is false. To be a follower of Christ has nothing to do with the rules and regulations of religion.

[mickiel]

To Mickiel:
I respect the fact that you have issues with some "so called" christians. Respectfully, what you perceive Christianity to be is false. To be a follower of Christ has nothing to do with the rules and regulations of religion.


Well I can also respect this post and the previous one you have written. The " True Definition" of Christianity has been lost over the years, mainly because belief and behavior must define what we claim to be. We are what we are, and should act accordingly, secondly we should believe according to what we are. These two simple things have disrupted the term " Christian", in my view. But with religion, we have so many varying beliefs, but just as confusing, so much variation in behavior. Then there is the issue of the bible, and how it is interpited, or even accepted.

For example, I do not believe in eternal unending torment, the topic of this thread. People use the bible to support this. I have gone on record as trying to show that everyone will be saved, and I search the Scripture to find support for that, and it is there, but there are also scripture that seem to support unending torment. So I think one has a choice to make, and base their future on that choice. I understand the confusion, but I cannot accept eternal unending torment, basically because I cannot accept that Gods characther would allow it.

Now if I wanted to, I could go another direction using scripture, to go against this ungodly belief in unending torture. Notice Malachi 4:1," For the day is comming, burning like a furnance; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff( Chaff is worthless lightweight matter, or ashes) and the day is comming which will set them ablaze, says the Lord, " So that it will leave them neither root or Branch." According to this scripture, there will be no unending burning, they will be burnt up with nothing left but ashes, it will be over, not everlasting.

Isaiah 29:6, describes Gods punishment using fire to be CONSUMING, God himself is onces described as a Consuming Fire, which suggest that things are consumed, not kept alive and tortured. If God wanted to, he can destroy things, and even destroy the memory of those things, Isaiah 26:14, why should he keep things around for eternity that he does not like? What kind of sense does it make to hold the power to wipe out things perminently, and then turn around and not use it, and keep some horrible place like eternal hell around?

Look at 1 John 3:15, no Murderer has Eternal Life abiding in him. What are you going to do with this scripture, because the doctrine of eternal hell torture is giving murderers eternal life.

Consider also Isaiah 1:28, Sinners and transgressors will be crushed, " And those who forsake the Lord SHALL COME TO AN END." Now obviously, I believe that no one shall Spiritually come to an end, but if I wanted to, I could use all these verses to dispute eternal torture, or keeping people alive forever in agony.

I can get even more graphic, using the bible to pursue this point, Notice John 3:36;" He who believes in the Son has Eternal Life, but he who does not obey the Son, SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides in him." This highly suggest that these will not even SEE life, muchless live eternally in misery, which is eternal lifebut just life in contempt constant pain.

I could use the bible in this manner, if I choose to, and still dispute this error in belief. Notice Phil.3:19, the statement, " Whose END is Destruction." Listen, God can destroy and end things, he most certainly can, he is called the Omega, or the Ending. God is never called the " Eternal allowing of Misery", which is what eternal hell would be, a horrible CURSE. Rev.22:3 promises there will be no more CURSES, and my belief has been ignited off into that direction.

So interpitation can be pushed in any direction, according to what direction your belief is being pushed in. And Christianity can be defined in various ways, but ultimately our behavior is affected by our interpitation in our belief. I agree that the Heart is, or should be, the core of belief, but interpitation has swallowed up that simple truth, and men argue more over doctrine than the heart of the matter.

Peace.

[god rules]

with god's help and divine revelation i have come to realize these truths. trying to live out christianity equates to 100% failure rate. It is pointless to think we can do it on our own. Who we are is in Christ alone. In other words, it is knowing that our identity is in Christ. It is a partnership with jesus in living out a holy life and accomplishing god's purpous for our life. What it boils down to is, it's all about him not us.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

2 Timothy 1:8-10
8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

[Lazarus]

with god's help and divine revelation i have come to realize these truths. trying to live out christianity equates to 100% failure rate. It is pointless to think we can do it on our own. Who we are is in Christ alone. In other words, it is knowing that our identity is in Christ. It is a partnership with jesus in living out a holy life and accomplishing god's purpous for our life. What it boils down to is, it's all about him not us.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

2 Timothy 1:8-10
8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

I think you have made a very good point. The Church often describes itself as a "pilgrim" Church, or as a Church that is on the way toward the Kingdom of God. The Church is not the Kingdom itself. The term Christian doesn't describe those who are in the Kingdom of God, but rather those who are seeking the Kingdom of God. It's also worth noting that those who have been considered the most holy among us, saints or other holy people, never dwell on their goodness or holiness, but on their sins (though we might consider them trivial) and on their constant need for the grace and presence of God. As we draw closer to God we become more aware of our imperfection. I would think that this awareness of imperfection and our lack of love in the face of perfect love and forgiveness would be a kind of torment, a hell if you will, for the believer, but this torment would be immediately washed away in the all encompassing love of God.

[mickiel]

I would think that this awareness of imperfection and our lack of love in the face of perfect love and forgiveness would be a kind of torment, a hell if you will, for the believer, but this torment would be immediately washed away in the all encompassing love of God.



I can agree with this also. The greatest need of humanity, that I know of, is forgiveness of our sins and grace and Love from God. I just don't see the need of conditions to receive those to be placed on humanity. Now I will admit, that to those who know to do Good, and don't do it, well then to Those, I can see sin being relevant. And I think that means to those who have Gods Spirit, or who are chosen, then Judgement falls on them first, and these are biblical principles, not my picking of scriptures to match my opinons. I think what many are doing, is trying to treat sinners and non believers, as if they are holders of Gods Spirit, and Judgeing them, as if they are the church itself. When really the judgement they are pronouncing on the non believers, is what is really directed at the church. These find it easy to see Gods forgiveness and Love and Grace directed at the church, but find it more easy to direct condemnation toward sinners and non believers. Is that what the bible is really teaching?

Many people have lived, and were not prepared to die, didn't even know death was comming that day. Many have lived their entire lives, without even knowing God, or given the opportunity to do so. The numbers of these people are far too many to count. Because of many of their born into environments, they were passed down beliefs that God was a Tree, or a Cow, or a statue. They were literally born into these illusions. The bible teachs that were sin abounds, or these illusions, that grace will abound even more. In my understanding, that covers these people, they are not being judged because of circumstances they held no control over. I simply see no need to limit that grace to modern day people who are informed about God, and still are in non belief illusion, they still are covered by his grace. Non belief is a very strong illusion and Gods grace is far stronger than their non belief. And that is a problem for many believers to accept, or to deal with, the REAL power of Gods Grace, and the vast scope of it. So rather than look into just how forgiving and Loving God could be, they turn that focus on the strength of his Judgement and Punishment, thinking his judgement is greater than his mercy.

So then along comes a few people who have put their focus and belief on the " Goodness" of God, the scope of his Kindness and Gentleness, and from that view, they see it possible, even understandable, that he could go after the forgiveness of not just a few in need, but everybody being covered by Christ death. And these people are called heritics for not believing that the gates of Hell will prevail against Gods Salvation, and not applying it to just those being judged now, or his church.

I have learned not to limit God in any area, he is simply off the scale of what men think he can possibly accomplish. Either all things are possible with him, or we can try and place limitations on him. And some believers have chosen to believe that he cannot save everyone, that such a thing is impossible for him to do. Now lets just say that I die believing these things, and I most certainly will. Now I must stand before God and face his judgement. He looks at me, examines my belief, and just what will he do with me and those who hold simular beliefs?

" Well now Mickiel, you believed that I would save everyone". There are only two possibilitys, he will either condemn me for believing too much from him, or expecting too much, and do as some Christians are teaching, and banish me to an eternity of suffering for expecting him to give grace to everyone. Or he will tell me that I was right about him. I am not taking a " Chance" with my belief, this is what I really see in God. I have given my life, my future, to this belief, just as Christians have given theirs. If I was wrong about God, then I will take my place into the eternal magnification of suffering that even Jesus didnot have to endure.

Because it seems crazy to me, that I must endure an eternal life of suffering, far greater than Jesus suffering, for believing that his death has covered not only my sins, but the sins of the entire race of humanity.

Because I know God holds the power to bring me OUT of any delusion about him NOW, any false interpitation that is NOW in me, this is the time to remove it. Then I willnot have to be lost. He can settle it now. But far too many have already died and received no settlement from him, UNLESS they have received it, but just do not know it.

And thats what I believe has occured. The matter is already settled, already predetermined. Its sealed and done with. And I know that is very hard to believe. Something has already removed the need for eternal unending torment, its our eternal unending NEED for Gods Love, his Grace and his forgiveness and Salvation.

Peace.

[god rules]

To Mickiel:
Instead of waiting until you die to know truth, i would encourage you out of love to ask jesus to reveal the truth of who he is to you NOW. He will do it. His word says it and his word does not lie. Please give him a chance. All your questions will be answered and you will have the peace that passes all understanding. Please understand that i'm telling you this out of love and concern.
2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

I'll be praying for you bro
God bless

[mickiel]

To Mickiel:
Instead of waiting until you die to know truth, i would encourage you out of love to ask jesus to reveal the truth of who he is to you NOW. He will do it. His word says it and his word does not lie. Please give him a chance. All your questions will be answered and you will have the peace that passes all understanding. Please understand that i'm telling you this out of love and concern.
2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

I'll be praying for you bro
God bless



Well thank you very much.

We can only eat the plate that God has given your mind and Heart to digest. What I now believe, is what I now have been given.

So I live in that reality, and stand ready to receive from him what he offers.

Peace.

[god rules]

A prayer for Mickiel:

JESUS, i ask you know to reveal yourself to me in a supernatural way. Show me your truth and set me free. Thankyou for your mercy and grace that i do not deserve. Thankyou for dying on the cross to remove my sin. I will live the rest of my days to love and serve you.
I love you Lord Amen!

[spitndirt]

We know God is just, giving the due penalty for sin.

As far as "Why torment instead of annihilation?" I don't know the reasoning to be honest. I just know that Christ said "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."(Matt 25:46)

Why don't you ask in prayer if Scripture does not reveal the reason to you? :pray:


Ummmm.......destroyed never to be raised to life again (annihilation) is a form of eternal punishment.

There is no purpose for eternal 'torment' since nothing in the new world to come will be dependent upon the wicked of this world being tormented forever. And God is certainly not dependent upon such a thing.

peace

[mickiel]

I agree. PunishING, is not PunishMENT! Punishing is continual.

They willnot go into punishing.

Peace.

[shadowman]

Eternal torment is cruel and unusual. It is extreme and wrong. It is one of the worst scenarios for conscious existence ever devised by man or by “god.” It is downright evil. It is not good, it is not fair, it is not righteous, it is not just.

Can you imagine a human in hell, your father perhaps?… Someone in so much agony they can barely scream? As fire burns inside and out they beg god for mercy and forgiveness, they cry out over and over “Im sorry” “forgive me” “oh god help me”

But it is too late for them, and their torment will keep on and keep on and keep on, and on, and on. As you read this, think about the seconds drifting by. 5 seconds, 10 seconds, two minutes, two hours. Now imagine someone being burned alive for this period of time. If you saw someone in this state, and had a loaded pistol…. What would you do? Would not most humans instinctively put the tormented human out of his misery?

Why does god not feel compassion for those in hell? Why does he do it? What does he get out of it. What do we get out of it?

[Lost]

Eternal torment is cruel and unusual. It is extreme and wrong. It is one of the worst scenarios for conscious existence ever devised by man or by “god.” It is downright evil. It is not good, it is not fair, it is not righteous, it is not just.

Can you imagine a human in hell, your father perhaps?… Someone in so much agony they can barely scream? As fire burns inside and out they beg god for mercy and forgiveness, they cry out over and over “Im sorry” “forgive me” “oh god help me”

But it is too late for them, and their torment will keep on and keep on and keep on, and on, and on. As you read this, think about the seconds drifting by. 5 seconds, 10 seconds, two minutes, two hours. Now imagine someone being burned alive for this period of time. If you saw someone in this state, and had a loaded pistol…. What would you do? Would not most humans instinctively put the tormented human out of his misery?

Why does god not feel compassion for those in hell? Why does he do it? What does he get out of it. What do we get out of it?

Exactly - it is total garbage and any religion or church that supports it is garbage.

[Lost]

Ummmm.......destroyed never to be raised to life again (annihilation) is a form of eternal punishment.

There is no purpose for eternal 'torment' since nothing in the new world to come will be dependent upon the wicked of this world being tormented forever. And God is certainly not dependent upon such a thing.

peace

hmm so people that make it to "heaven" are all of a sudden going to become perfectly unselfish?
Sounds great but then if it was that easy to get people to be unselfish then this whole earth thing could have been bypassed - something smells a bit wrong.

[mickiel]

If I were to give 9 reasons why eternal hell torture willnot exist, that can be easily done. 9 examples why I excuse the few verses in the bible that hell believers dwell on. 9 reasons that are greater than any scripture that mentions eternal fire. 9 reasons that can change anything in or out of the bible. 9 reasons why the destiny of humanity is safe, even though many bible believers think it is not safe. 9 reasons that there will no longer be any curse placed upon humanity. 9 reasons that the doomsayers message is incomplette.

And these 9 reasons are a perfect discription of the being we know as God.

Love. The Love of God will not cause any of his children to be aborted.

Joy. It is impossible for God to take Joy in endless suffering of sinners. It is just as impossible for God to do anything forever, that he willnot take Joy in forever.

Peace. All of the created universes, in the comming Spiritual world, will be at Peace. There will be no such thing as an " Area preserved for eternal suffering." Not for humans.

Patience. Gods patience is legendary in heaven, but literally unknown by many humans who believe in him.

Kindness. God is simply far too kind for eternal misery to be allowed to exist. There is no known reasonable way to explain the existance of an eternal hell, and it to exist at the same time with Gods Kindness, only one of these two can exist. No kindness, such as God has, can allow such a thing and be Kind.

Goodness. The Goodness of God also ill affords an existance of eternal pain for a human. Because of Gods Goodness, it is impossible for everlasting misery to exist.

Faithfullness. There are too many promises from God to save all of humanity, for any kind of pain amphlifier like hell to exist in eternity. God has swore an oath to save all of humanity, his faithfullness to his own oath is a literal garentee that we all will be saved.

Gentleness. God is supremely Gentle, and even his followers don't know this about him. There is absolutely NOTHING gentle about the belief in eternal punishing. It is greater than an ugly belief, and more shameful, because believers in God are reporting that its Gods plan to do such a thing.

Self Control. God willnot " Loose it", and allow eternal suffering to exist, because he holds the power to create millions of alternitives to it being an eternal hell. But bible believers think that God is " Locked into doing it." As if he could do nothingelse.

These are the 9 reasons I do not believe in eternal punishing.

And they are also 9 descriptions of how God is.

Peace.

[Lost]

If I were to give 9 reasons why eternal hell torture willnot exist, that can be easily done. 9 examples why I excuse the few verses in the bible that hell believers dwell on. 9 reasons that are greater than any scripture that mentions eternal fire. 9 reasons that can change anything in or out of the bible. 9 reasons why the destiny of humanity is safe, even though many bible believers think it is not safe. 9 reasons that there will no longer be any curse placed upon humanity. 9 reasons that the doomsayers message is incomplette.

And these 9 reasons are a perfect discription of the being we know as God.

Love. The Love of God will not cause any of his children to be aborted.

Joy. It is impossible for God to take Joy in endless suffering of sinners. It is just as impossible for God to do anything forever, that he willnot take Joy in forever.

Peace. All of the created universes, in the comming Spiritual world, will be at Peace. There will be no such thing as an " Area preserved for eternal suffering." Not for humans.

Patience. Gods patience is legendary in heaven, but literally unknown by many humans who believe in him.

Kindness. God is simply far too kind for eternal misery to be allowed to exist. There is no known reasonable way to explain the existance of an eternal hell, and it to exist at the same time with Gods Kindness, only one of these two can exist. No kindness, such as God has, can allow such a thing and be Kind.

Goodness. The Goodness of God also ill affords an existance of eternal pain for a human. Because of Gods Goodness, it is impossible for everlasting misery to exist.

Faithfullness. There are too many promises from God to save all of humanity, for any kind of pain amphlifier like hell to exist in eternity. God has swore an oath to save all of humanity, his faithfullness to his own oath is a literal garentee that we all will be saved.

Gentleness. God is supremely Gentle, and even his followers don't know this about him. There is absolutely NOTHING gentle about the belief in eternal punishing. It is greater than an ugly belief, and more shameful, because believers in God are reporting that its Gods plan to do such a thing.

Self Control. God willnot " Loose it", and allow eternal suffering to exist, because he holds the power to create millions of alternitives to it being an eternal hell. But bible believers think that God is " Locked into doing it." As if he could do nothingelse.

These are the 9 reasons I do not believe in eternal punishing.

And they are also 9 descriptions of how God is.

Peace.

I agree but then the only problem is that those nine attributes are not always evident in the picture we get of the the Yahwey of the OT.
The Yahwey of the OT is a bit more of a vengeful nasty God in so many ways that it makes it hard to see the Messiah and Him as being the same at all - I don't see Yahwey in the gospel accounts of the person of the Messiah - I see what I would have liked God to be.
Maybe the OT writers stuffed up their ideas on God completely and the God came down to fix it all up - but something is a bit smelly with that idea too.

[mickiel]

I agree but then the only problem is that those nine attributes are not always evident in the picture we get of the the Yahwey of the OT.
The Yahwey of the OT is a bit more of a vengeful nasty God in so many ways that it makes it hard to see the Messiah and Him as being the same at all - I don't see Yahwey in the gospel accounts of the person of the Messiah - I see what I would have liked God to be.
Maybe the OT writers stuffed up their ideas on God completely and the God came down to fix it all up - but something is a bit smelly with that idea too.



Well I don't view the OT and the NT the same as most do. The being in the OT was more prone to mix blessings with curses, and shifted between those two, but he never gave curses that were not deserved, and often gave blessings that were not deserved either. God the Father only vists the NT a few times, as Jesus only vists the OT a few times. I view God and Jesus as two complettely different beings, they are not one and the same.

I also see the Anger in God in the OT, but I see plenty of reason for the anger. But the wrath of God was always against sin itself, not against the people themselves, it was what the people had done. The OT does show what God is capable of doing, if and when he needs to do it. He can destroy, and will destroy once again. But his destruction is centered on sin, not people. God will destroy the works of the Devil, he will not come to destroy mens lives, but to save them. And if you study those 9 fruits, they will explain God.

Peace.

[god rules]

Exodus 20

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Nahum 1

2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The LORD takes vengeance on his foes
and maintains his wrath against his enemies.
3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power;
the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet.

So you fellas believe that all are saved? Do you think that god will save those who worship Buddah or Mohammed. He will say on that day, even though you worshipped another God and broke my commandments, i'll let it slide. I think this is intellectual dishonesty.

[Lazarus]

Exodus 20

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Nahum 1

2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The LORD takes vengeance on his foes
and maintains his wrath against his enemies.
3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power;
the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet.

So you fellas believe that all are saved? Do you think that god will save those who worship Buddah or Mohammed. He will say on that day, even though you worshipped another God and broke my commandments, i'll let it slide. I think this is intellectual dishonesty.

I don't know if all are saved or all are condemned. God has created me and is free to do with me as God wills, and who am I to dispute it? Even if I was the most faithful servant of the Lord, he could condemn me if he so pleased, and if I was the most despicable sinner against God and humanity, God could save me if he so pleased. What I do believe, however, is that our God is a God of love and he loves us. Jesus Christ taught us this. I believe it is intellectually dishonest to believe that God is a God of endless love and yet doubt his mercy. On a moral level, I also believe it is cowardly to believe that God has created all of us, Buddhist and Muslim alike, and loves us deeply, and yet will offer only a blanket condemnation, even to those who had done nothing but good in their lives, simply because they were born and raised in Thailand or Yemen. Such a belief says much more about ourselves that it says about God.

[mickiel]

I don't know if all are saved or all are condemned. God has created me and is free to do with me as God wills, and who am I to dispute it? Even if I was the most faithful servant of the Lord, he could condemn me if he so pleased, and if I was the most despicable sinner against God and humanity, God could save me if he so pleased. What I do believe, however, is that our God is a God of love and he loves us. Jesus Christ taught us this. I believe it is intellectually dishonest to believe that God is a God of endless love and yet doubt his mercy. On a moral level, I also believe it is cowardly to believe that God has created all of us, Buddhist and Muslim alike, and loves us deeply, and yet will offer only a blanket condemnation, even to those who had done nothing but good in their lives, simply because they were born and raised in Thailand or Yemen. Such a belief says much more about ourselves that it says about God.




Very well written, I certainly agree with this. I like the statement, " God can save me if he so pleased." So it bears to question, does God desire to save just anyone, or certain ones who fit a qualification? The book of Job presents a fact about God in 23:13, He is very Unique and who can turn him? What his soul Desires, that he does. Very simple and direct statement of truth about God, he's just going to do what he wants to do. So who does he want to save?

1Tim. 2:3-4;" This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who Desires all men to be saved and come to the Knowledge of the Truth." It does please God to save everyone, I see no reason to doubt that. Now, obviously, this is not acceptable to certain believers in God, namely those who do not share this desire of God, there are some believers who do not want God to save everybody. But then there are certain believers who actually wouldnot mind God saving everybody, but just do not think it is Gods will to do so.

But this verse is encouraging to me because I am one who believes what Job says and I take it literally. I think God gets what he wants, and nothing can stop that, I have that much confidence in his desires. Isaiah 55:11 shows what happens when God desires something. His desires come forth out of him and cannot, willnot return to him empty and void. It may seem impossible to certain believers that God would save everyone, but what is impossible to men, is possible with God. So if we base the salvation of everyone on Gods ability and desires, then it becomes very possible, but if we base it on human interpitation or humans belief, then it certainly is impossible.

In Ps. 33:11, what God desires will stand forever, the plans of his Heart from generation to Generation. So Gods desires hold a perminance, and his Power holds the Ability to accomplish anything.

If men had a more powerful belief in Gods ability, then Universal Salvation wouldnot be looked on as heresey by some, but actually as attainable by him, desired by him. Because really God is not willing, or more importantly has not willied, that any of us should perish. So why should we perish? Well only one thing can destroy a humans Spiritual future with God, and that is Sin. So if the Sins of humanity were removed, is it then possible for God to get what he desires?

And more and more of us are beginning to see, to believe , that is exactly what Jesus has already done. That Jesus has removed the condemnation that we all faced, that Jesus has become our Sin, taken on the responsibility for it, and paied its hughe debt to God, and because of that, we can receive the justification for God to get what he desires.

Peace.

[shadowman]

Exodus 20

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Nahum 1

2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The LORD takes vengeance on his foes
and maintains his wrath against his enemies.
3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power;
the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet.

So you fellas believe that all are saved? Do you think that god will save those who worship Buddah or Mohammed. He will say on that day, even though you worshipped another God and broke my commandments, i'll let it slide. I think this is intellectual dishonesty.


Is it not also intellectual and moral dishonesty to worship a being who thinks its ok to eternally torment his creations?

[god rules]

I don't know if all are saved or all are condemned. God has created me and is free to do with me as God wills, and who am I to dispute it? Even if I was the most faithful servant of the Lord, he could condemn me if he so pleased, and if I was the most despicable sinner against God and humanity, God could save me if he so pleased. What I do believe, however, is that our God is a God of love and he loves us. Jesus Christ taught us this. I believe it is intellectually dishonest to believe that God is a God of endless love and yet doubt his mercy. On a moral level, I also believe it is cowardly to believe that God has created all of us, Buddhist and Muslim alike, and loves us deeply, and yet will offer only a blanket condemnation, even to those who had done nothing but good in their lives, simply because they were born and raised in Thailand or Yemen. Such a belief says much more about ourselves that it says about God

So this is what you base your salvation on? I would encourage you to ask god to reveal the truth to you instead of waiting to find out after you die. Don't you want to be sure? I wouldn't want to hang my eternity on a balance.
Scenario:
I am a satanist. I spend my whole life recruiting people for satan. I reject jesus and worship satan who is an enemy of JESUS. Because God wills me to be in Heaven i'm alright? Even though i spent my life rejecting him and bowing to worship his enemy. My how we are deceived.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=god rules;


I am a satanist. I spend my whole life recruiting people for satan. I reject jesus and worship satan who is an enemy of JESUS. Because God wills me to be in Heaven i'm alright? Even though i spent my life rejecting him and bowing to worship his enemy. My how we are deceived.[/QUOTE]



I like this discription of this person. He spends his whole life in a vain religion, rejects Jesus and worships his false god. And recruits others to join him. You know, this person really needs salvation, mercy, forgiveness, understanding, Love and Kindness. They wouldNOT need harsh judgement or condemnation.

Now, which will they receive from God? Well that depends on what God is like, it does not depend on Christian interpitation of the bible. In fact, it does not depend on anyonelse, or on anyones judgement concerning how deceived we are. The bottom line is STILL God. God is the one who decides what to do with a person in such pitiful shape. And I am glad for that. Because I know God holds enough forgiveness, enough Love, Enough Grace and Mercy, that I cannot condemn such people. I know they have hope in God.

But now if their salvation depended on the followers of God, if their forgiveness and mercy depended on the believers in God, if they were in the hands of men, oh good greif--- case closed, they are simply doomed.

But people in such condition still have a Savior, who is no respector of their severity of Sins.

They have hope in Christ actions, his death on the cross has covered their condition.

Peace.

[Lazarus]

So this is what you base your salvation on? I would encourage you to ask god to reveal the truth to you instead of waiting to find out after you die. Don't you want to be sure? I wouldn't want to hang my eternity on a balance.
Scenario:
I am a satanist. I spend my whole life recruiting people for satan. I reject jesus and worship satan who is an enemy of JESUS. Because God wills me to be in Heaven i'm alright? Even though i spent my life rejecting him and bowing to worship his enemy. My how we are deceived.

I base my salvation on the limitless love of God as revealed through the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus. I do pray to God and I do ask that he reveal his truth to me. The answer I have consistantly received from my youth is "love others as I have loved you." I'm not convinced that God will actually consider the labels we use to identify ourselves when we eventually meet him face to face. If that "Satanist" in your illustration was a person of love who did good to others, then he was a poor Satanist, and I believe God, in all justice, will take that person's confusion and doubt into account, as well as his service to others, and welcome him as the Father welcomed the prodigal son in the parable of Jesus. The thing I can't get over when I consider heaven and hell is that I can't think of a sin that is greater than the love of God. Can you?

[mickiel]

I base my salvation on the limitless love of God as revealed through the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus.

. The thing I can't get over when I consider heaven and hell is that I can't think of a sin that is greater than the love of God. Can you?


Oh how sweet the gospel truth really is. There it is right there. What sin is greater than the Love of God. Well some will read this great statement, and their reaction will be to search the scriptures in order to find that sin which is greater than Gods Love. They do not search the scriptures to find life, they search it to find sin and condemnation.

And that search becomes THEIR point of judgement, and that point, is the everlasting hell that they have found in scripture. If it was not there to find, then they wouldnot have found it. So I don't think that the " People" who have found it are evil, no, they are certainly not. It is not evil to believe something you have found in the bible.

Where the evil comes in, is where it always comes in, through the deception of the Evil one, satan, who will use the bible to distort the true image of God.

And he is VERY good at doing it. The evil belief, comes from satan, NOT the people who look to believe the bibles message.

Peace.

[god rules]

I base my salvation on the limitless love of God as revealed through the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus. I do pray to God and I do ask that he reveal his truth to me. The answer I have consistantly received from my youth is "love others as I have loved you." I'm not convinced that God will actually consider the labels we use to identify ourselves when we eventually meet him face to face. If that "Satanist" in your illustration was a person of love who did good to others, then he was a poor Satanist, and I believe God, in all justice, will take that person's confusion and doubt into account, as well as his service to others, and welcome him as the Father welcomed the prodigal son in the parable of Jesus. The thing I can't get over when I consider heaven and hell is that I can't think of a sin that is greater than the love of God. Can you?

Actually if we love God we will acknowledge our sin, repent and turn from it. The woman at the well(Go and sin no more). To love God is to Obey God. Obedience is better than Sacrifice.

Your example of The Prodigal Son:
You left out some key Elements. He(son) acknowledged his sinful lifestyle and humbled himself to return to his fathers home. Then when he arrived he said:

Luke 15:21
21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]'

So in using your example of the Prodigal Son for the "Satanist", he would need to acknowledge his sin of worsipping Satan asking forgiveness to God and turn from his evil ways.

[mickiel]

Actually if we love God we will acknowledge our sin, repent and turn from it. The woman at the well(Go and sin no more). To love God is to Obey God. Obedience is better than Sacrifice.

.



Is human obedience greater than Christ Sacrifice? Our obedience is not better than that Sacrifice, nor is it greater, nor ever can be.

No matter how obedient any believer in God can be, the gift of Salvation is still based on Christ Sacrifice. You can combine all the obedience of every single believer who ever lived, or who lives and obeys now, all that would still not be better than Christ sacrifice.

But you can take Christ obedience, HIS sacrifice, and apply it to the disobedience of all humanity, and come up with some pretty impressive grace that can be applied toward the disobedience of humanity.

Peace.

[Lost]

Actually if we love God we will acknowledge our sin, repent and turn from it. The woman at the well(Go and sin no more). To love God is to Obey God. Obedience is better than Sacrifice.

Your example of The Prodigal Son:
You left out some key Elements. He(son) acknowledged his sinful lifestyle and humbled himself to return to his fathers home. Then when he arrived he said:

Luke 15:21
21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]'

So in using your example of the Prodigal Son for the "Satanist", he would need to acknowledge his sin of worsipping Satan asking forgiveness to God and turn from his evil ways.

I agree - obedience is very important to God - one must of course believe in God to obey Him but even so a person who does not know God but lives acccording to His principles would please God more than someone professing to believe but treating their fellow man poorly.
This totally flies in the face of christian doctrines but I don't care - I believe it to be true and it is supported by the words of Jesus.
He also says "I desire mercy not sacrifice".
"Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharasees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven".
How much things have been twisted around.
As if one cannot please God by obeying Him - what a lot of garbage - take out Paul and you have a decent religion.

[mickiel]

Jesus sacrifice is greater than mans obedience.

The attempt to place the focus of salvation on things that people do, is an effort to reduce what Christ has done.

Peace.

[shadowman]

Jesus sacrifice is greater than mans obedience.

The attempt to place the focus of salvation on things that people do, is an effort to reduce what Christ has done.

Peace.


thats what Im saying. Humans are fallible, we make mistakes. We were made to make mistakes.

I find the concept of humans being punished for what they do in life a little ridiculous. Every nuance and possibility of human existence was thought of, first, by god. So god "is" rebellion against god. God is questioning and refusing to believe until death. God is jesus and judas.

all these things were invented by God, first....

[mickiel]

thats what Im saying. Humans are fallible, we make mistakes. We were made to make mistakes.

I find the concept of humans being punished for what they do in life a little ridiculous. Every nuance and possibility of human existence was thought of, first, by god. So god "is" rebellion against god. God is questioning and refusing to believe until death. God is jesus and judas.

all these things were invented by God, first....



I agree wholeheartedly. These things would not be, unless God intended them to be. It is NOt a " To be or not to be kind of thing", all evil and sin are here, and NOTHING could exist, unless God willed it into existance. So if one can see this, and understand it, then we would know who is ultimately responsible for all these things.

And THAT is why I find comfort in knowing that God is responsible for these things, and he has made arrangements for those things to be taken care of.

But if the belief system looks to place the responsibility for those things on humanity, then it is very easy to then condemn humanity, if you blame humanity for Evil.

So if the question is to be relevant, then who will save humanity? If it is God who will save us, then I believe we are safe and saved inspite of the evil around us. If we must save ourselves, then we all are simply doomed.

Peace.

[Lazarus]

I agree - obedience is very important to God - one must of course believe in God to obey Him but even so a person who does not know God but lives acccording to His principles would please God more than someone professing to believe but treating their fellow man poorly.
This totally flies in the face of christian doctrines but I don't care - I believe it to be true and it is supported by the words of Jesus.
He also says "I desire mercy not sacrifice".
"Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharasees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven".
How much things have been twisted around.
As if one cannot please God by obeying Him - what a lot of garbage - take out Paul and you have a decent religion.

I don't believe that most of what you have written flies in the face of Christian doctrine. In fact, I believe much of it is fairly mainstream. Also, I would not want to take St. Paul out of the equation. I think Paul is easily misunderstood depending on how you read him and on what you are looking for.
I also want to underscore something that Godrules mentioned in one of his posts. If we truly love God we will want to repent our sins and conform our lives according to his will. God's love, however, is not contingent upon our repentance, though heaven may be. I do think that there is a hell and that some people may be in it, but I don't think they are there because God has condemned them. I think that when we see God face to face we will be so overcome by his perfect love that all our sins will become clear to us and we will indeed wish for the mountains to cover us and hide us from him. We will know that we are unworthy of anything that God has given to us, especially his love. This realization will be our purgatory, so to speak, a cleansing that arises in perfect comprehension of our sin in the face of God's love. But contrary to expectation or what we each deserve, God will forgive our sin and welcome us into his Kingdom. Still, each of us maintains free will, and even at this point some may choose not to accept God's mercy and justice. They, in effect, choose hell. They are not condemned to hell but choose to be separate from God.

[mickiel]

I don't believe that most of what you have written flies in the face of Christian doctrine. In fact, I believe much of it is fairly mainstream. Also, I would not want to take St. Paul out of the equation. I think Paul is easily misunderstood depending on how you read him and on what you are looking for.
I also want to underscore something that Godrules mentioned in one of his posts. If we truly love God we will want to repent our sins and conform our lives according to his will. God's love, however, is not contingent upon our repentance, though heaven may be. I do think that there is a hell and that some people may be in it, but I don't think they are there because God has condemned them. I think that when we see God face to face we will be so overcome by his perfect love that all our sins will become clear to us and we will indeed wish for the mountains to cover us and hide us from him. We will know that we are unworthy of anything that God has given to us, especially his love. This realization will be our purgatory, so to speak, a cleansing that arises in perfect comprehension of our sin in the face of God's love. But contrary to expectation or what we each deserve, God will forgive our sin and welcome us into his Kingdom. Still, each of us maintains free will, and even at this point some may choose not to accept God's mercy and justice. They, in effect, choose hell. They are not condemned to hell but choose to be separate from God.



So you are suggesting that humans will be brought to this point of being, and still ignorantly reject God. But you are further suggesting that God will ignorantly ALLOW them to condemn themselves. That God will be just as defiant, just as stupid, as they will be by GRANTING their wish!

Don't you see this? What in your mind is excusing God from being involved in THEIR decision? What makes you so adamantly believe that God willNOT save them against their will? Can you explain that.

Peace.

[god rules]

Is human obedience greater than Christ Sacrifice? Our obedience is not better than that Sacrifice, nor is it greater, nor ever can be.

No matter how obedient any believer in God can be, the gift of Salvation is still based on Christ Sacrifice. You can combine all the obedience of every single believer who ever lived, or who lives and obeys now, all that would still not be better than Christ sacrifice.

But you can take Christ obedience, HIS sacrifice, and apply it to the disobedience of all humanity, and come up with some pretty impressive grace that can be applied toward the disobedience of humanity.

Peace.

1 Samuel 15:21-23 (New International Version)

21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal."

22 But Samuel replied:
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Respectfully you are misunderstanding the concept. OUR obedience to God is more important than OUR sacrifice as is stated in 1 Samuel 15.

[god rules]

I agree wholeheartedly. These things would not be, unless God intended them to be. It is NOt a " To be or not to be kind of thing", all evil and sin are here, and NOTHING could exist, unless God willed it into existance. So if one can see this, and understand it, then we would know who is ultimately responsible for all these things.

And THAT is why I find comfort in knowing that God is responsible for these things, and he has made arrangements for those things to be taken care of.

But if the belief system looks to place the responsibility for those things on humanity, then it is very easy to then condemn humanity, if you blame humanity for Evil.

So if the question is to be relevant, then who will save humanity? If it is God who will save us, then I believe we are safe and saved inspite of the evil around us. If we must save ourselves, then we all are simply doomed.

Peace.

1) What is evil?

1) Evil is...intentions and intentional acts (both being 'acts' or 'personally directed events' and not 'things') of intelligent agents, that violate the God-derived principles of love, fairness, or loyalty.

2) God made all things, right? did He make evil.

2) No, 'acts' and 'events' are not 'made'--they are 'done'. God made and created 'things' and 'agents', not their 'acts' or 'events'...He 'did' His own 'acts' (of course), but other agents 'do' their own 'acts'. So God did not 'make evil' (the phrase is meaningless and nonsensical)

[shadowman]

he created the possibility for it, I think you need to analyze this a little bit closer

[god rules]

So you are suggesting that humans will be brought to this point of being, and still ignorantly reject God. But you are further suggesting that God will ignorantly ALLOW them to condemn themselves. That God will be just as defiant, just as stupid, as they will be by GRANTING their wish!

Don't you see this? What in your mind is excusing God from being involved in THEIR decision? What makes you so adamantly believe that God willNOT save them against their will? Can you explain that.

Peace.

Scenario: God is a morally pure, perfect, beautiful, and loving Agent. He creates a universe that is beautiful and orderly, and creates a single/solitary (finite and derivative) moral agent inside this universe. This finite agent is constructed along the lines of moral purity (with elements such as conscience, instinct, and God's instruction insuring that initial moral choices are clear, with no room for ignorance or maturation-related problems possible at first), and this creature faces his/her first moral decision between choice A and choice B. The agent is aware that choice A is 'what God would do' (in his/her situation) and is therefore an expression of moral purity, goodness, truth, and beauty, as well as love for moral purity, goodness, truth, and beauty. Such a choice also inherently affirms the beauty of God's will--as the moral precedent and ultimate reference point for this. Since the agent is already in a morally perfect world, choice A will result in no qualitative gain in goodness, but will result in a quantitative gain in goodness (i.e., robustness and plenitude). The agent choses A, freely, instead of any alternative non-A/anti-A. God's moral beauty is therefore affirmed by the creature, and certain built-in benefits of goodness accrue to the creature (e.g. 'the joy of personal integrity').

What--if any-- is the 'required' response by God, the morally pure Agent, whose interests are in (a) preserving the moral beauty; and in (b) increasing the enjoyment of that moral beauty by others--the quantitative element? Could such a beauty-loving, moral truth-loving God be silent/neutral in such a case? No way--the God of the obligation of reciprocity ("do unto others what you would have them do unto you") would affirm the goodness of the creature, just as the creature had affirmed the goodness of God's heart in the act of making the choice. This affirmation could take many forms (e.g., praise, above-consequences blessings, additional opportunities for greater choices/responsibility) , but any of them would likely be perceived as a 'reward' by the creature.

Would there be any 'utilitarian' goal for the reward? There need not be any at all--the 'reward' was a moral affirmation that flowed (without goal!) from the heart of the morally perfect Affirmer (just as the affirmation of God by the creature during the act of the choice would not/could not be 'utilitarian' oriented--or the motivation for the good would have been perverted). In other words, the affirmation 'events' are intrinsic to the actions, and are NOT 'goal-oriented' or utilitarian. God affirms-in-reward not to 'further motivate', not to educate, not to 'set a precedent', but rather because He is "aggressively" morally good. Likewise, the affirmation of God by the creature is not to 'bribe God', nor to 'position oneself relative to future blessings', etc.--the affirmation occurs in the simple choosing of the good-because-its-like-God.

Could we use the word 'just' to describe God's response of affirmation? Philosophically speaking, justice is "each getting what he or she is due" (Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy). For God's action to be considered 'just' (in this philosophical sense), the affirmation would have to be something 'due' to the creature. Without getting too technical, this would mean that some 'obligation' of sorts existed between God and any good-chooser (be it human, spirit, God, or intra-Trinitarian Agent).

Now, normally, folk like me get really nervous when we posit 'obligations' on God relative to humans. Specters of 'merit' and 'boasting' etc. start circling around in our heads, but the plain fact of the matter is that God obligates Himself in history all the time. He obligates Himself in all the covenants of the bible ("and when He could swear by nothing greater, He swore by Himself..."), and His very heart 'obligates' Him in certain trajectories of faithfulness, truthfulness, and mercy. In all these types of cases it is perfectly (theologically) legitimate to speak of God's obligations to others, since these obligations arise from God's own gracious choices and from God's own expansive heart--and NOT from some 'prior claim' that a creature might have upon Him.

In our particular case, the obligation is one that derives only from God's moral beauty (not from His position as Lawgiver)--and it is an 'obligation' shared by all moral agents. In other words, all moral agents have the same obligation to affirm the good choices of others (since the good choices of others had also affirmed their moral standards, in the act of choosing the good). I as a moral agent am under a similar moral obligation to affirm--as being good--the good choices of others. And I am NOT supposed to do this solely for 'other reasons'--solely to encourage them, train them, appear noble, etc.--but just because it was good. God--as a perfectly good moral Agent--has therefore the moral imperative (obligation) to recognize, affirm, celebrate the good choices of other moral agents. [Of course, God can go 'way overboard' in the rewarding act--!--so that "goodness gives way to grace and generosity", but this would not be 'obligation' in any sense. It might be beauty, but it would be 'more than is due' and therefore 'just, plus generous'.]

In a real sense, this is essentially a 'law' of Reciprocity. In human ethical systems, this law shows up as some variant of the Golden Rule ("do unto others what you would have them do unto you"), and has a long (and 'wide') history in ethical thought. The oldest semi-statement of this I can find is in the Old Testament/Tannach (Lev 19.18c): "love your neighbor as yourself". This core (treat your neighbor as you [as moral subject] would treat yourself [as moral object]) is essentially the core of the Golden Rule [treat your neighbor as you would have them (moral subjects) treat yourself (as moral object)]. The Golden rule can be found in explicit statements in/by Herodotus, Thales, Isocrates, Confucius, pre-Christian Jewish Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha, Hillel, Jesus, Akiba, and St. Paul.

[Lazarus]

So you are suggesting that humans will be brought to this point of being, and still ignorantly reject God. But you are further suggesting that God will ignorantly ALLOW them to condemn themselves. That God will be just as defiant, just as stupid, as they will be by GRANTING their wish!

Don't you see this? What in your mind is excusing God from being involved in THEIR decision? What makes you so adamantly believe that God willNOT save them against their will? Can you explain that.

Peace.

I admit that I cannot understand how anyone, when they clearly understand the presence of God's infinite love, can reject such love. At the same time, I know that love cannot be compelled or forced. God desires us to return his love freely, otherwise it cannot be love. It might be fear or awe or even a desire to be "saved", but it's not love unless it is free. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps God continuously pursues us until we are captured. And yet, God calls us to be his sons and daughters, not his slaves. This implies a free choice on our part. Ultimately, I have to let it go and admit I don't know. I wish you peace as well.

[carelinks]

Seems to me that another perspective is that "hell" simply refers to the grave in the Bible; and that death is unconsciousness. Here's a study I wrote on "hell". Enjoy!

As a word, the original Hebrew word ‘sheol’, translated ‘hell’, means ‘a covered place’. ‘Hell’ is the anglicised version of ‘sheol’; thus when we read of ‘hell’ we are not reading a word which has been fully translated. A ‘helmet’ is literally a ‘hell-met’, meaning a covering for the head. Biblically, this ‘covered place’, or ‘hell’, is the grave. There are many examples where the original word ‘sheol’ is translated ‘grave’. Indeed, some modern Bible versions scarcely use the word ‘hell’, translating it more properly as ‘grave’. A few examples of where this word ‘sheol’ is translated ‘grave’ should torpedo the popular conception of hell as a place of fire and torment for the wicked.

§ “Let the wicked...be silent in the grave” (sheol [Ps. 31:17]) - they will not be screaming in agony.

§ “God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave” (sheol [Ps. 49:15]) - i.e. David’s soul or body would be raised from the grave, or ‘hell’.

The belief that hell is a place of punishment for the wicked from which they cannot escape just cannot be squared with this; a righteous man can go to hell (the grave) and come out again. Hos. 13:14 confirms this: “I will ransom them (God’s people) from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death”. This is quoted in 1 Cor. 15:55 and applied to the resurrection at Christ’s return. Likewise in the vision of the second resurrection (see Study 5.5), “Death and Hades (Greek for ‘hell’) delivered up the dead who were in them” (Rev. 20:13). Note the parallel between death, i.e. the grave, and Hades (see also Ps. 6:5).

Hannah’s words in 1 Sam. 2:6 are very clear: “The Lord kills and makes alive (through resurrection); he brings down to the grave (sheol), and brings up”.

Seeing that ‘hell’ is the grave, it is to be expected that the righteous will be saved from it through their resurrection to eternal life. Thus it is quite possible to enter ‘hell’, or the grave, and later to leave it through resurrection. The supreme example is that of Jesus, whose “soul was not left in Hades (hell), nor did his flesh see corruption” (Acts 2:31) because he was raised. Note the parallel between Christ’s ‘soul’ and his ‘flesh’ or body. That his body “was not left in Hades” implies that it was there for a period, i.e. the three days in which his body was in the grave. That Christ went to ‘hell’ should be proof enough that it is not just a place where the wicked go.

Both good and bad people go to ‘hell’, i.e. the grave. Thus Jesus “made his grave with the wicked” (Is. 53:9). In line with this, there are other examples of righteous men going to hell, i.e. the grave. Jacob said that he would “go down into the grave (hell)...mourning” for his son Joseph (Gen. 37:35).

It is one of God’s principles that the punishment for sin is death (Rom. 6:23; 8:13; James 1:15). We have previously shown death to be a state of complete unconsciousness. Sin results in total destruction, not eternal torment (Mt. 21:41; 22:7; Mk. 12:9; James 4:12), as surely as people were destroyed by the Flood (Lk. 17:27,29), and as the Israelites died in the wilderness (1 Cor. 10:10). On both these occasions the sinners died rather than being eternally tormented. It is therefore impossible that the wicked are punished with an eternity of conscious torment and suffering.

We have also seen that God does not impute sin - or count it to our record - if we are ignorant of His word (Rom. 5:13). Those in this position will remain dead. Those who have known God’s requirements will be raised and judged at Christ’s return. If wicked, the punishment they receive will be death, because this is the judgment for sin. Therefore after coming before the judgment seat of Christ, they will be punished and then die again, to stay dead for ever. This will be “the second death”, spoken of in Rev. 2:11; 20:6. These people will have died once, a death of total unconsciousness. They will be raised and judged at Christ’s return, and then punished with a second death, which, like their first death, will be total unconsciousness. This will last forever.

It is in this sense that the punishment for sin is ‘everlasting’, in that there will be no end to their death. To remain dead for ever is an everlasting punishment. An example of the Bible using this kind of expression is found in Dt. 11:4. This describes God’s one-off destruction of Pharaoh’s army in the Red Sea as an eternal, on-going destruction in that this actual army never again troubled Israel: “He made the waters of the Red sea overflow them... the Lord has destroyed them to this day”.

One of the parables about Christ’s return and the judgment speaks of the wicked being ‘slain’ in his presence (Lk. 19:27). This hardly fits into the idea that the wicked exist forever in a conscious state, constantly receiving torture. In any case, this would be a somewhat unreasonable punishment - eternal torture for deeds of 70 years. God has no pleasure in punishing wicked people; it is therefore to be expected that He will not inflict punishment on them for eternity (Ez. 18:23,32; 33:11 cf. 2 Pet. 3:9).

A misbelieving Christendom often associates ‘hell’ with the idea of fire and torment. This is in sharp contrast to Bible teaching about hell (the grave). “Like sheep they are laid in the grave (hell); death shall feed on them” (Ps. 49:14) implies that the grave is a place of peaceful oblivion. Despite Christ’s soul, or body, being in hell for three days, it did not suffer corruption (Acts 2:31). This would have been impossible if hell were a place of fire. Ez. 32:26-30 gives a picture of the mighty warriors of the nations around, lying in their graves: “the mighty who are fallen (in battle)...who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war; they have laid their swords under their heads...they shall lie...with those who go down to the Pit”. This refers to the custom of burying warriors with their weapons, and resting the head of the corpse upon its sword. Yet this is a description of “hell” - the grave. These mighty men lying still in hell (i.e. their graves), hardly supports the idea that hell is a place of fire. Physical things (e.g. swords) go to the same “hell” as people, showing that hell is not an arena of spiritual torment. Thus Peter told a wicked man, “Your money perish with you” (Acts 8:20).

The record of Jonah’s experiences also contradicts this. Having been swallowed alive by a huge fish, “Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. And he said: ‘I cried...to the Lord...out of the belly of Sheol (hell) I cried” (Jonah 2:1,2). This parallels “the belly of Sheol” with that of the fish. The fish’s belly was truly a ‘covered place’, which is the fundamental meaning of the word ‘sheol’. Obviously, it was not a place of fire, and Jonah came out of “the belly of Sheol” when the fish vomited him out. This pointed forward to the resurrection of Christ from ‘hell’ (the grave) - see Mt. 12:40.

Figurative Fire

However, the Bible does frequently use the image of eternal fire in order to represent God’s anger with sin, which will result in the total destruction of the sinner in the grave. Sodom was punished with “eternal fire” (Jude v. 7), i.e. it was totally destroyed due to the wickedness of the inhabitants. Today that city is in ruins, submerged beneath the waters of the Dead Sea; in no way is it now on fire, which is necessary if we are to understand ‘eternal fire’ literally. Likewise Jerusalem was threatened with the eternal fire of God’s anger, due to the sins of Israel: “Then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched” (Jer. 17:27). Jerusalem being the prophesied capital of the future Kingdom (Is. 2:2-4; Ps. 48:2), God did not mean us to read this literally. The houses of the great men in Jerusalem were burnt down with fire (2 Kings 25:9), but that fire did not continue eternally. Fire represents the anger/punishment of God against sin, but His anger is not eternal (Jer. 3:12). Fire turns what it burns to dust; and we know that the ultimate wages of sin is death, a turning back to dust. This perhaps is why fire is used as a figure for punishment for sin.

Similarly, God punished the land of Idumea with fire that would “not be quenched night nor day; its smoke shall ascend for ever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste...the owl and the raven shall dwell in it...thorns shall come up in its palaces” (Is. 34:9-15). Seeing that animals and plants were to exist in the ruined land of Idumea, the language of eternal fire must refer to God’s anger and His total destruction of the place, rather than being taken literally.

The Hebrew and Greek phrases which are translated “for ever” mean strictly, “for the age”. Sometimes this refers to literal infinity, for example the age of the kingdom, but not always. Is. 32:14,15 is an example: “The forts and towers will become lairs for ever...until the spirit is poured upon us”. This is one way of understanding the ‘eternity’ of ‘eternal fire’.

Time and again God’s anger with the sins of Jerusalem and Israel is likened to fire: “My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place - (Jerusalem)...it will burn, and not be quenched” (Jer. 7:20; other examples include Lam. 4:11 and 2 Kings 22:17).

Fire is also associated with God’s judgment of sin, especially at the return of Christ: “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up” (Mal. 4:1). When stubble, or even a human body, is burnt by fire, it returns to dust. It is impossible for any substance, especially human flesh, to literally burn forever. The language of ‘eternal fire’ therefore cannot refer to literal eternal torment. A fire cannot last forever if there is nothing to burn. It should be noted that “Hades” is “cast into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14). This indicates that Hades is not the same as “the lake of fire”; this represents complete destruction. In the symbolic manner of the book of Revelation, we are being told that the grave is to be totally destroyed, because at the end of the Millennium there will be no more death.

Gehenna

In the New Testament there are two Greek words translated ‘hell’. ‘Hades’ is the equivalent of the Hebrew ‘sheol’ which we have discussed earlier. ‘Gehenna’ is the name of the rubbish tip which was just outside Jerusalem, where the refuse from the city was burnt. Such rubbish tips are typical of many developing cities today (e.g. ‘Smoky Mountain’ outside Manila in the Philippines.) As a proper noun - i.e. the name of an actual place - it should have been left untranslated as ‘Gehenna’ rather than be translated as ‘hell’. ‘Gehenna’ is the Aramaic equivalent of the Hebrew ‘Ge-ben-Hinnon’. This was located near Jerusalem (Josh. 15:8), and at the time of Christ it was the city rubbish dump. Dead bodies of criminals were thrown onto the fires which were always burning there, so that Gehenna became symbolic of total destruction and rejection.

Again the point has to be driven home that what was thrown onto those fires did not remain there forever - the bodies decomposed into dust. “Our God (will be) a consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29) at the day of judgment; the fire of His anger with sin will consume sinners to destruction rather than leave them in a state of only being singed by it and still surviving. At the time of God’s previous judgments of His people Israel at the hand of the Babylonians, Gehenna was filled with dead bodies of the sinners among God’s people (Jer. 7:32,33).

In his masterly way, the Lord Jesus brought together all these Old Testament ideas in his use of the word ‘Gehenna’. He often said that those who were rejected at the judgment seat at His return would go “to hell (i.e. Gehenna), into the fire that shall never be quenched ... where their worm does not die” (Mk. 9:43,44). Gehenna would have conjured up in the Jewish mind the ideas of rejection and destruction of the body, and we have seen that eternal fire is an idiom representing the anger of God against sin, and the eternal destruction of sinners through death.

The reference to “where their worm does not die”, is evidently part of this same idiom for total destruction - it is inconceivable that there could be literal worms which will never die. The fact that Gehenna was the location of previous punishments of the wicked amongst God’s people, further shows the aptness of Christ’s use of this figure of Gehenna.

Joachim Jeremias explains how the literal valley of Gehenna came to be misinterpreted as a symbol of a ‘hell’ that is supposed to be a place of fire: “[Gehenna]…since ancient times has been the name of the valley west and south of Jerusalem…from the woes pronounced by the prophets on the valley (Jer. 7:32 = 19:6; cf. Is. 31:9; 66:24) because sacrifices to Moloch took place there (2 Kings 16:3; 21:6), there developed in the second century BC the idea that the valley of Hinnom would be the place of a fiery hell (Eth. Enoch 26; 90.26)…it is distinguished from sheol” (New Testament Theology, London: SCM, 1972 p. 129).