God thinks all humans are evil right?

[shadowman]

god thinks all humans are evil right?

since god is always moral, and never makes mistakes.... then he must see us all as evil. since without jesus, we all deserve hell.

am I on the right track?

[outcast]

God loves all human beings it is the sin that he hates.

God loves homosexuals, drug addicts, hookers, ect...... it is the sin that God hates. So God loves the sinner and hates sin.

since without jesus, we all deserve hell.

am I on the right track?

we deserve hell because we have violated the 10 commandments for the bible,
have you ever told a lie? including white lies visit www.livingwaters.com

as a result of breaking the commandments then we have knowledge of our sin, and because God gave us a conscience we know right from wrong. so then because God is a righteous judge He must give us Justice and so yes we deserve hell, the only way to get out of hell is to accept the sacrafice of Jesus Christ. first you must acknowledge your sin to God that you have violated his law (10 commandments) then confess it to him, then repent which means to turn away then beleive on the sacrafice of Jesus Christ, that he paid the fine for your penaltey. when He hung himself on the cross and shed His blood for atonement for our sins and healing from sickness and disease. Then God raised him from the dead.

I hope that helps with your question.

[Whipartist]

god thinks all humans are evil right?

since god is always moral, and never makes mistakes.... then he must see us all as evil. since without jesus, we all deserve hell.

am I on the right track?

God doesn't make mistakes, but that's not what good and evil are about. Evil is rotten and involves things that are wrong. There is no excuse for doing evil. Because we are evil we do deserve hell and destruction. God is love and wants us to love aswell. We should bring love into this world and not evil and sin.

So we must repent of doing evil and instead follow Jesus and do righteousness. We must love God and love others. This is what's important. If we believe in God and that Jesus is our savior, then we must follow Him, be faithful to Him, and abstain from every form of evil.

[shadowman]

why is being thrown into hell justice? who benefits from this justice? is this considered as vengeance? or simply the right thing to do? how is this justice DEFINED?

[Lost]

why is being thrown into hell justice? who benefits from this justice? is this considered as vengeance? or simply the right thing to do? how is this justice DEFINED?

That just opens up the never-ending debate on eternal torture or the lack thereof.

[Lady Gooner]

god thinks all humans are evil right?

since god is always moral, and never makes mistakes.... then he must see us all as evil. since without jesus, we all deserve hell.

am I on the right track?

define evil

if we dont get our concept of evil stated its impossible to look at the question




Evil is anything that is different from what God wants or agrees with


God says that there are only two categories of people in the world as far as He is concerned~

• Not rich and poor
• Not good and bad
• Not young and old
• Not Jew and gentile
• Not slave and master

There are two categories

1. Those born once (wicked)
2. Those born twice (righteous)

At the end the wicked and the good are seperated,

[Whipartist]

why is being thrown into hell justice? who benefits from this justice? is this considered as vengeance? or simply the right thing to do? how is this justice DEFINED?

First we must define hell, and as the Lady pointed out- evil, and as you are saying, justice. It all works together. It is as helpful to ask the other question from the other extreme. Is there justice if evil bloodthirsty people don't go to hell?

[Lost]

First we must define hell, and as the Lady pointed out- evil, and as you are saying, justice. It all works together. It is as helpful to ask the other question from the other extreme. Is there justice if evil bloodthirsty people don't go to hell?

That depends on what is really hell.
Eternal torment would be ridiculous and quite unjust but then that is a big topic with way too many opinions and way to an ambiguous bible lol.

Ambiguous is the way with the bible - just about everything in the bible is ambiguous.
God didn't even bother describing Himself to the Israelites properly - not much of a mention of something so insignificant as the trinity lol - sure there are some obscure bits and pieces that people drag up to show sort of.

Why would it have been so difficult to explain things a bit more simply and unambiguously to the poor wretched humans He created?

Talking in riddles is what a disdainful boss does to his hated employees etc.

It would have taken just 2 or 3 pages of text total to explain these things unambiguously.

Unless of course the bible is just man's developing religion of opression and lording it over a dumb population.

[shadowmaster]

god thinks all humans are evil right?

since god is always moral, and never makes mistakes.... then he must see us all as evil. since without jesus, we all deserve hell.

am I on the right track?

"Shadowman" eh? Has an evil sound about it. How come the shadowmaster never heard of you?

[sc_q_jayce]

"Shadowman" eh? Has an evil sound about it. How come the shadowmaster never heard of you?
A man without their master is hardly found.

[shadowmaster]

A man without their master is hardly found.

and shadowmaster was enlightened

[shadowman]

God loves all human beings it is the sin that he hates.

God loves homosexuals, drug addicts, hookers, ect...... it is the sin that God hates. So God loves the sinner and hates sin.

since without jesus, we all deserve hell.

am I on the right track?

we deserve hell because we have violated the 10 commandments for the bible,
have you ever told a lie? including white lies visit www.livingwaters.com

as a result of breaking the commandments then we have knowledge of our sin, and because God gave us a conscience we know right from wrong. so then because God is a righteous judge He must give us Justice and so yes we deserve hell, the only way to get out of hell is to accept the sacrafice of Jesus Christ. first you must acknowledge your sin to God that you have violated his law (10 commandments) then confess it to him, then repent which means to turn away then beleive on the sacrafice of Jesus Christ, that he paid the fine for your penaltey. when He hung himself on the cross and shed His blood for atonement for our sins and healing from sickness and disease. Then God raised him from the dead.

I hope that helps with your question.

Why punish beings that break the ten commandments forever? How is that justice? who benefits from this so called justice? does god enjoy tormenting people forever? Does he enjoy knowing that people are tormented forever? Isnt there something strange abnout a being that keeps creating things and punishing them for all time because he doesnt like what they do? why is it so important for him to deliver justice. who is being made happy from this? who is benefitting from it?

Is it normal to be sitting around thinking "gee, how could I punish conscious beings forever? I know Ill give them ten commandments that I know they will break, and if the break them Ill give them hell forever!"

I mean, when ytou are in the business of creation, is this whole dynamic something you want to create? why does he let his game keep running, knowing that billions are going to hell. what kind of justice lasts eternally and is withpout mercy? who thinks up these ideas?

wouldnt a better god forgive unconditionally? it seems like a big corcle. he wants to forgive people, but he doesnt simply remove hell from the scenario.

what makes me different from someone who accepts jesus?

[shadowman]

God doesn't make mistakes, but that's not what good and evil are about. Evil is rotten and involves things that are wrong. There is no excuse for doing evil. Because we are evil we do deserve hell and destruction. God is love and wants us to love aswell. We should bring love into this world and not evil and sin.

So we must repent of doing evil and instead follow Jesus and do righteousness. We must love God and love others. This is what's important. If we believe in God and that Jesus is our savior, then we must follow Him, be faithful to Him, and abstain from every form of evil.

doesnt love forgive evil? where does it say that love has to punish people eternally. I really dont see eternal torment, or torment of any kind, as just. a punishment like that seems injust in the firstplace....

if we do evil deeds it makes us absolutely evil... but if we do good deeds, doesnt that make us a saint at the same time as being a sinner....

sin makes someone "a sinner"

so doesnt love make a person "a lover?"

[shadowman]

define evil

if we dont get our concept of evil stated its impossible to look at the question




Evil is anything that is different from what God wants or agrees with


God says that there are only two categories of people in the world as far as He is concerned~

• Not rich and poor
• Not good and bad
• Not young and old
• Not Jew and gentile
• Not slave and master

There are two categories

1. Those born once (wicked)
2. Those born twice (righteous)

At the end the wicked and the good are seperated,

So is everyone born again the person god wanted them to be?

does god "want" every human to be born again?

Why are people anxcious to convert others. is it possible that people go to hell who might have been reached by missionaries.

why leave the spreading of salvation on the shoulders of humans. why doesnt god do it?
why leave it up to fallible humans.

infact why leave the whole thing to fallible humans.

he knows many of us are gonna make a mistake by not accepting jesus. isnt that a bit funny or queer?

[shadowman]

First we must define hell, and as the Lady pointed out- evil, and as you are saying, justice. It all works together. It is as helpful to ask the other question from the other extreme. Is there justice if evil bloodthirsty people don't go to hell?

I dont know. I dont think justice is such an endearing trait. It apeals to humans sense of revenge or vengeance, an eye for an eye, etc... Many humans think that forgiveness is a higher road than revenge, right? what is justice trying to accomplish? The idea of sinners going to hell kind of strikes me as god taking revenge on humans. why not just forgive, or fix and heal. why not just do whatever you do to born agains, and do that to all of humanity..... that way everyone gets fixed, cleaned up, and worthy of breathing in the vicinity of god....

Like I dont actually see the point of someone famously wicked, hitler say, being tortured forever. whats the point? I get that we are supposed to think that this is gods justice. but as you said, what is justice?

[Lost]

So is everyone born again the person god wanted them to be?

does god "want" every human to be born again?

Why are people anxcious to convert others. is it possible that people go to hell who might have been reached by missionaries.

why leave the spreading of salvation on the shoulders of humans. why doesnt god do it?
why leave it up to fallible humans.

infact why leave the whole thing to fallible humans.

he knows many of us are gonna make a mistake by not accepting jesus. isnt that a bit funny or queer?

hehe so many questions :lol:

So many people think that they have got christianity down pat with all their ideas on hell, salvation, the trinity, the creeds.
The bible is a hopelessly confusing and complicated document, thanks mainly to some guy called Paul and it really needn't be so.
But God made mankind evil and dumb so He treated us like idiots and talked in parables and wrote or inspired some damn confusing stuff.
Hopefully someone up there will rewrite the damn thing properly before too long.

[shadowman]

That depends on what is really hell.
Eternal torment would be ridiculous and quite unjust but then that is a big topic with way too many opinions and way to an ambiguous bible lol.

Ambiguous is the way with the bible - just about everything in the bible is ambiguous.
God didn't even bother describing Himself to the Israelites properly - not much of a mention of something so insignificant as the trinity lol - sure there are some obscure bits and pieces that people drag up to show sort of.

Why would it have been so difficult to explain things a bit more simply and unambiguously to the poor wretched humans He created?

Talking in riddles is what a disdainful boss does to his hated employees etc.

It would have taken just 2 or 3 pages of text total to explain these things unambiguously.

Unless of course the bible is just man's developing religion of opression and lording it over a dumb population.


It seems to me, given the nature of this earth, and its people, god doesnt really seem to be all that concerned that people are going to hell. He has created beings that have been bumbling around for thousands of years, following one philosophy or another. Looks to me like millions are going to hell. I dont care if god and his followers are able to justify amongst themselves why it is ok to put humans into sometyhing metophorically OR realistically described as "a furnace of fire"

no matter what, that doesnt seem right. I think if you are a being that creates things, he has a ceretain responsibility to his creations, to not let them suffer unimaginable torment (eternal, that is)... I dont care if he thinks we are all absolutely evil, we still have feelings and issues and flaws. It seems to me that our flaws keep us out of heaven....

Im having trouble putting into words what I percieve to be awry about the whole thing. But if god really doesnt want people in hell, why not show up tangibly and tell his supposed "children" whats going on? not in some dream or mystery vision, not in some archaic book, but really, show up,

he will one day of course, but then it will be tolate and he will strart punishing people eternally

once again, whats the point of non corrective punishment?

[Lost]

It seems to me, given the nature of this earth, and its people, god doesnt really seem to be all that concerned that people are going to hell. He has created beings that have been bumbling around for thousands of years, following one philosophy or another. Looks to me like millions are going to hell. I dont care if god and his followers are able to justify amongst themselves why it is ok to put humans into sometyhing metophorically OR realistically described as "a furnace of fire"

no matter what, that doesnt seem right. I think if you are a being that creates things, he has a ceretain responsibility to his creations, to not let them suffer unimaginable torment (eternal, that is)... I dont care if he thinks we are all absolutely evil, we still have feelings and issues and flaws. It seems to me that our flaws keep us out of heaven....

Im having trouble putting into words what I percieve to be awry about the whole thing. But if god really doesnt want people in hell, why not show up tangibly and tell his supposed "children" whats going on? not in some dream or mystery vision, not in some archaic book, but really, show up,

he will one day of course, but then it will be tolate and he will strart punishing people eternally

once again, whats the point of non corrective punishment?

yep.
It would have been a much better design for producing people who love Him if He never made a desire for sex at all and made the production of babies just a considered decision to create new life and then only by responsible parents. - the current situation is totally disgusting if hell is a reality.
I would give God 2/10 for this creation if He is doing a university thesis or something.

You do realize tho that this thread will be torn to shreds soon by vultures who see nothing at all wrong with the status quo?

[Whipartist]

doesnt love forgive evil? where does it say that love has to punish people eternally. I really dont see eternal torment, or torment of any kind, as just. a punishment like that seems injust in the firstplace....

As I said, we need to discuss hell. Let us say that whether it is eternal or not, it is entirely appropriate. That is a given. I don't think Scripture goes into it all too much.

Love doesn't forgive unrepentant evil.

if we do evil deeds it makes us absolutely evil... but if we do good deeds, doesnt that make us a saint at the same time as being a sinner....

sin makes someone "a sinner"

so doesnt love make a person "a lover?"

Doing evil makes someone as evil as the evil they did. It doesn't make them absolutely evil. But it does characterize a violation which was inexcusible. God offers forgiveness to those who do evil. The reason they never receive it is because they don't want it. They want to continue to do evil and ignore God. Those are the facts of life in my part of the world. I've only come across several true seekers after God in my journey through life. The rest didn't care. God is not one to be questioned. He's the source of our sense of justice. You have to assume Him to question Him.

Loving one's friends is common. It's loving one's enemies which is what really constitutes Christian love. Anybody who loves their enemies, whether they go by the name Christian or not, will certainly find some measure of favor in God's eyes, IMHO.

[Whipartist]

I dont know. I dont think justice is such an endearing trait. It apeals to humans sense of revenge or vengeance, an eye for an eye, etc... Many humans think that forgiveness is a higher road than revenge, right? what is justice trying to accomplish? The idea of sinners going to hell kind of strikes me as god taking revenge on humans. why not just forgive, or fix and heal. why not just do whatever you do to born agains, and do that to all of humanity..... that way everyone gets fixed, cleaned up, and worthy of breathing in the vicinity of god....

Like I dont actually see the point of someone famously wicked, hitler say, being tortured forever. whats the point? I get that we are supposed to think that this is gods justice. but as you said, what is justice?

What if hell is eternal destruction, not eternal torment? Would that solve the issue for you? That seems like a valid Biblical question to me, and it is certainly debated here on Tweb.

Or what if hell is having to live forever with yourself for what a louse you were while alive? What if it is the torment of truly not being able to truly love, or the torment of spiritual death, whatever that may mean? There are so many things that hell might be that I think it's a waste of emotion to judge God over the matter.

But in any case, I think it's generally instinctive that evil is to be punished. It is the enforcing of the value of life. It is the clear and real statement that what was done was wrong. If there is no justice in the next life, then I have no hope of having the tears wiped clean from my eyes in eternity. I've had some people do some things to me which has taught me this. I have had to let go and ask God for His vengence, not taking my own. Though I used to think like you and weep to the point of severe doubt, I have now changed. I need God to deal with some people for me. If He doesn't, then there is no healing for what they have done because they will have gotten away with it. Live some more years. Learn to write God with a capital G. There's more to life than you know. I pray that these people will repent and learn to love sacrificially. But if they will not, and will be sealed in their evil, then I wish that their fate would be final and terrible. That's the truth.

Dostoevsky wrote through one of his characters in the Brother's Karamazov, that "the more that I love humanity in general, the less I love them in particular. But the more I learn to love them in particular, the more I do not love them in general." That's something I've found to be true. Don't weep for humanity. Go out there and try to make a difference through loving your enemies and overcoming evil with good. Leave the big questions to God and assume He knows how to run the show. In time you'll find a balance if you follow this path.

Your justifcation of humanity against God, is like rooting for the bad guy to win. Humanity has been on this planet for thousands of years ignoring and repressing God. They worship rocks and trees and the Sun before they acknowledge what is evident to all of us. It's not that they are unclear on the truth, but that they don't care. They have made this decision corporately, every day in their blasphemy, their sin, their wilfull ignorance, ingraditude and mockery of righteousness.

God reached out so far that He came here and lived among us and died. What else was He supposed to do, accept us as evil and not demand we change to be what we should be? Do you really think He wants a bunch of little Gremlins in Heaven? God will not ignore a cup of water given in charity. We can trust that His judgment will be fair and just.

I long for the day when I will be with Him and evil will be destroyed. When the righteous will win and evil will be destroyed. This is the only happy ending possible. Vengence is far from a bad thing when left in God's hands. It is the upholding of the value of those who have been hurt by evil people. Vengence belongs to God and it is sweet. What would be the point of punishing Hitler in hell? It will be a great relief to those who were mutilated by his henchmen, that he didn't get away scott free with what he did. It will show them that they mattered. And if the threat of hell was not there, then correspondingly the value of human life would not be enforced, and consequently would be meaningless.

Spend some time studying the Scriptures and learning to trust what they are saying. Without faith, you cannot change your perspective. If you lean on your own understanding, it may take years, but eventually you'll realize just how limited your thinking has been. We can't grow without the willingness to open our minds. I'll pray for you my friend. If you seek Him, you'll find Him. He was there at the cross saying "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

[Lost]

What if hell is eternal destruction, not eternal torment? Would that solve the issue for you? That seems like a valid Biblical question to me, and it is certainly debated here on Tweb.

Or what if hell is having to live forever with yourself for what a louse you were while alive? What if it is the torment of truly not being able to truly love, or the torment of spiritual death, whatever that may mean? There are so many things that hell might be that I think it's a waste of emotion to judge God over the matter.

But in any case, I think it's generally instinctive that evil is to be punished. It is the enforcing of the value of life. It is the clear and real statement that what was done was wrong. If there is no justice in the next life, then I have no hope of having the tears wiped clean from my eyes in eternity. I've had some people do some things to me which has taught me this. I have had to let go and ask God for His vengence, not taking my own. Though I used to think like you and weep to the point of severe doubt, I have now changed. I need God to deal with some people for me. If He doesn't, then there is no healing for what they have done because they will have gotten away with it. Live some more years. Learn to write God with a capital G. There's more to life than you know. I pray that these people will repent and learn to love sacrificially. But if they will not, and will be sealed in their evil, then I wish that their fate would be final and terrible. That's the truth.

Dostoevsky wrote through one of his characters in the Brother's Karamazov, that "the more that I love humanity in general, the less I love them in particular. But the more I learn to love them in particular, the more I do not love them in general." That's something I've found to be true. Don't weep for humanity. Go out there and try to make a difference through loving your enemies and overcoming evil with good. Leave the big questions to God and assume He knows how to run the show. In time you'll find a balance if you follow this path.

Your justifcation of humanity against God, is like rooting for the bad guy to win. Humanity has been on this planet for thousands of years ignoring and repressing God. They worship rocks and trees and the Sun before they acknowledge what is evident to all of us. It's not that they are unclear on the truth, but that they don't care. They have made this decision corporately, every day in their blasphemy, their sin, their wilfull ignorance, ingraditude and mockery of righteousness.

God reached out so far that He came here and lived among us and died. What else was He supposed to do, accept us as evil and not demand we change to be what we should be? Do you really think He wants a bunch of little Gremlins in Heaven? God will not ignore a cup of water given in charity. We can trust that His judgment will be fair and just.

I long for the day when I will be with Him and evil will be destroyed. When the righteous will win and evil will be destroyed. This is the only happy ending possible. Vengence is far from a bad thing when left in God's hands. It is the upholding of the value of those who have been hurt by evil people. Vengence belongs to God and it is sweet. What would be the point of punishing Hitler in hell? It will be a great relief to those who were mutilated by his henchmen, that he didn't get away scott free with what he did. It will show them that they mattered. And if the threat of hell was not there, then correspondingly the value of human life would not be enforced, and consequently would be meaningless.

Spend some time studying the Scriptures and learning to trust what they are saying. Without faith, you cannot change your perspective. If you lean on your own understanding, it may take years, but eventually you'll realize just how limited your thinking has been. We can't grow without the willingness to open our minds. I'll pray for you my friend. If you seek Him, you'll find Him. He was there at the cross saying "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

And He asked God to forgive them even tho they were not repenting but that is another story, which in my view shows that we can forgive others even if they don't say sorry.

[Whipartist]

And He asked God to forgive them even tho they were not repenting but that is another story, which in my view shows that we can forgive others even if they don't say sorry.

Yes that's true. Jn. 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin ; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."

I forgive those who sin against me and are not sorry daily. But some sins do not fall into that categor,y and though we are to love our enemies, unless they repent, we cannot absolve them of what they have done, and are just and righteous to cry out to God for vengence against them as the saints in Revelation did. There is the difference between those who do not know what they do, who act ignorantly in unbelief, and those who repress the knowledge of God. God tends to actually get through to those in the former category unless and until they too join the later.

[shadowman]

As I said, we need to discuss hell. Let us say that whether it is eternal or not, it is entirely appropriate. That is a given. I don't think Scripture goes into it all too much.

Love doesn't forgive unrepentant evil.



Doing evil makes someone as evil as the evil they did. It doesn't make them absolutely evil. But it does characterize a violation which was inexcusible. God offers forgiveness to those who do evil. The reason they never receive it is because they don't want it. They want to continue to do evil and ignore God. Those are the facts of life in my part of the world. I've only come across several true seekers after God in my journey through life. The rest didn't care. God is not one to be questioned. He's the source of our sense of justice. You have to assume Him to question Him.

Loving one's friends is common. It's loving one's enemies which is what really constitutes Christian love. Anybody who loves their enemies, whether they go by the name Christian or not, will certainly find some measure of favor in God's eyes, IMHO.

I dont know. I think its the ultimate stumbling block... love does forgive all. unconditional love forgives absolute evil. and on the same token, absolute evil over comes unconditional love.....

but as for unrepentant evil? I think love can forgive evil as long as it isnt absolute. are you saying that people who dont believe in jesus will go to heaven? because some people say "I made my mistakes, I learnt from them, I try to do better as I grow and learn"

that sounds very reasonable...

I think many people are like this who dont believe that jesus was anything more than a teacher, or even a myth...

What if humans do good. if their evil is unexcusable, shouldnt their good be unexcusable too?
I notice christians say "ever told a lie? well if you have that makes you a lier!"

well Ive done good, and Ive done acts of love too, does that make me a good, or a lover? Doesnt it go both ways?

applying labels to people makes it easier to justify torturing them for all time.

I dont think torturing conscious beings is fair or just. I think it is wrong. If we challenge our minds, isnt it possible to conceive of a being who forgives ALL, and doesnt take revenge on anyone (this is what gods justice looks like, revenge)?

what is the purpose of gods revenge on certain peoiple. does anyuone get anything out of it? ITs like the human who wants to see his brothers killer die. Its bad that his brother was killed. But its not a noble trait to want to see the killer be killed or (in gods case) tortured.

I assume the christian god, and I dont know if I like him that much... he seems to be one of the most unforgiving gods of all the god systems. even allah is said to let people out of hell after a time, because he feels sorry for them.

none of that with god.

I just have a very hard time agreeing with the torture of people. And all I see is christians defending it and justifying it, like they are bloodthirsty, or eagerly anticipating a great big "told you so" when athiests or de converts MEET THEIR GOD AT JUDGEMENT (in bold scary letters)

I would have hoped meeting my creator would have been a beautiful amazing experience no matter what I did... But Im not so sure. pastors make god seem like he barely tolerates us, and is the kind of person that would torture us at the drop of a dime.

I even go as far to say that if gods master plan includes even one human in hell, somethign is wrong with his plan...

why? because I can conceive of a world where no one is tortured and everyone is fixed and healed and changed so they only desire good etc...

[shadowman]

What if hell is eternal destruction, not eternal torment? Would that solve the issue for you? That seems like a valid Biblical question to me, and it is certainly debated here on Tweb.

Or what if hell is having to live forever with yourself for what a louse you were while alive? What if it is the torment of truly not being able to truly love, or the torment of spiritual death, whatever that may mean? There are so many things that hell might be that I think it's a waste of emotion to judge God over the matter.

But in any case, I think it's generally instinctive that evil is to be punished. It is the enforcing of the value of life. It is the clear and real statement that what was done was wrong. If there is no justice in the next life, then I have no hope of having the tears wiped clean from my eyes in eternity. I've had some people do some things to me which has taught me this. I have had to let go and ask God for His vengence, not taking my own. Though I used to think like you and weep to the point of severe doubt, I have now changed. I need God to deal with some people for me. If He doesn't, then there is no healing for what they have done because they will have gotten away with it. Live some more years. Learn to write God with a capital G. There's more to life than you know. I pray that these people will repent and learn to love sacrificially. But if they will not, and will be sealed in their evil, then I wish that their fate would be final and terrible. That's the truth.

Dostoevsky wrote through one of his characters in the Brother's Karamazov, that "the more that I love humanity in general, the less I love them in particular. But the more I learn to love them in particular, the more I do not love them in general." That's something I've found to be true. Don't weep for humanity. Go out there and try to make a difference through loving your enemies and overcoming evil with good. Leave the big questions to God and assume He knows how to run the show. In time you'll find a balance if you follow this path.

Your justifcation of humanity against God, is like rooting for the bad guy to win. Humanity has been on this planet for thousands of years ignoring and repressing God. They worship rocks and trees and the Sun before they acknowledge what is evident to all of us. It's not that they are unclear on the truth, but that they don't care. They have made this decision corporately, every day in their blasphemy, their sin, their wilfull ignorance, ingraditude and mockery of righteousness.

God reached out so far that He came here and lived among us and died. What else was He supposed to do, accept us as evil and not demand we change to be what we should be? Do you really think He wants a bunch of little Gremlins in Heaven? God will not ignore a cup of water given in charity. We can trust that His judgment will be fair and just.

I long for the day when I will be with Him and evil will be destroyed. When the righteous will win and evil will be destroyed. This is the only happy ending possible. Vengence is far from a bad thing when left in God's hands. It is the upholding of the value of those who have been hurt by evil people. Vengence belongs to God and it is sweet. What would be the point of punishing Hitler in hell? It will be a great relief to those who were mutilated by his henchmen, that he didn't get away scott free with what he did. It will show them that they mattered. And if the threat of hell was not there, then correspondingly the value of human life would not be enforced, and consequently would be meaningless.

Spend some time studying the Scriptures and learning to trust what they are saying. Without faith, you cannot change your perspective. If you lean on your own understanding, it may take years, but eventually you'll realize just how limited your thinking has been. We can't grow without the willingness to open our minds. I'll pray for you my friend. If you seek Him, you'll find Him. He was there at the cross saying "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."


complete annihilation seems about right. I guess its too "merciful" in the eyes of many christians (or muslims) I just think that to punish evil indefinitely is wrong. humans get a lot of things wrong with their justice system here on earth, a lot of it stems from an inability to really fix or help someone labeled as a criminal. Punishing evil may be instinctive, but it still boils down to a need for revenge. In order for there to be in place a system where people get tortured, someone has to be the one enjoying the torture of others, other wise, torture wouldnt be in existance at all.... (if we assume a sentient creator) if whoever designed everything doesnt want people to be tortured, why are there provisions for it? Why not just forgive everyone. Humans make mistakes. many of the m will turn from jesus. many of them will not pick jesus. many of them,born into another religion and ministered to about jesus will still not choose jesus.

Some people will devote large portions of their lives arguing against the existence of any god, or the christians god, or against allah, it doesnt matter.... Humans make mistakes, and our salvation is dependant on us not making any mistakes. Its like god punishes us for our inate qualities like falibility....

I dont need to know that people who have done evil have recieved justice. torturing them forever is not good.. And righting god with a capital G thing, I look at the universe, and it strikes me "we have a god that cares if we respect or worship or cherish him?" It sounds like a dictator or something "you will obey, you will trust, ghule never makes mistakes, ghule is perfect.... it would be best that you do not question ghule"

I guess I dont see humans in as poor a light as you do. and if someone does see them in this poor light, I look forward to forgiveness and healing more than wishing them some awful fate...

I think christians think humanity is against god or something, and I agree that this is how the bible portrays it, I think thats kind of silly too. Over all the world view described is too desolate and bleak to be good. All of us are doomed, and god is trying hard to save us. Am I to believe that god has to try? Am I to believe people who could have been okay by god will forever be "not okay with god?"

it doesnt even seem fair. some people are shown the light and walk in gods grace. what seperates them from anyone else? are they gods children? Do we only become a chiild of god if we repent? Are there people who right now could be a child of god, and never repent and then get dealt with? It seems like we are given too much power.

how can it be that gods creation gets lost to hell? even a fraction of it? IT seems non harmonious, tragic, unbalanced, pathetic even.

If god cant forgive hitler, who can?

[shadowman]

what do you mean if I seek Him I will find Him?

[M.Talkingsworth]

"Shadowman" eh? Has an evil sound about it. How come the shadowmaster never heard of you?

Hey Shadowmaster,

I was wondering if Shadowman may be one of your henchmen or something. Are you forming some sort of conspiracy-theory run-the-world-from-behind-the-scenes-while-posing-as-a-mild-mannered-T-webber sort of deal? If so, I definitely want in on it. I want to make the sinister faces in the background on the videos we send to the United Nations with our outrageously devilish demands in the form of gold bullion or something!

The U.N. does have gold bullion, right?

Cheers,

M.T.

[shadowmaster]

Hey Shadowmaster,

I was wondering if Shadowman may be one of your henchmen or something. Are you forming some sort of conspiracy-theory run-the-world-from-behind-the-scenes-while-posing-as-a-mild-mannered-T-webber sort of deal? If so, I definitely want in on it. I want to make the sinister faces in the background on the videos we send to the United Nations with our outrageously devilish demands in the form of gold bullion or something!

Sorry, your sideburns are too long.

shadowmaster

[M.Talkingsworth]

god thinks all humans are evil right?

since god is always moral, and never makes mistakes.... then he must see us all as evil. since without jesus, we all deserve hell.

am I on the right track?

I think you may be simplifying things a little bit here. I think that it is more accurate to state that humans have the capability for perfoming moral good and moral evil. Paul addresses this in a sort of way I believe.

God, I think, sees us as what we are. If we persist in doing evil, then we are actually evil. This is not simply an "opinion" of God. It is a fact. If we turn to God and persist in doing good, then we are good. We are not just good in God's "opinion" but we are actually good, and God sees us as such.

I do not think that God arbitrarily declares everyone evil, but looks at what individuals actually are and judges them accordingly when the time comes.

God bless,

Matt

[M.Talkingsworth]

Sorry, your sideburns are too long.

shadowmaster

Bah! You clean-shaven master of shadows, you'll pay for this!

[Whipartist]

I dont know. I think its the ultimate stumbling block... love does forgive all. unconditional love forgives absolute evil. and on the same token, absolute evil over comes unconditional love.....

We're not talking about absolutely unconditional love in the philosophic sense. God's love is conditional and it should be. Love does not forgive absolute unrepentant evil because if it does, it has given it allowance, and given it a place to exist. It has caused evil to continue and thus become evil itself. Love's goal is to conquer evil, not accept it. Evil ultimately must be turned from inorder for love to have its way. If love accepts evil to the very end, then evil has won out over love and righteousness. Evil is a destructive force, like antimatter or nonbeing. To allow for it to continue unabated would not be loving at all. I think you get that by what you say?

but as for unrepentant evil? I think love can forgive evil as long as it isnt absolute. are you saying that people who dont believe in jesus will go to heaven? because some people say "I made my mistakes, I learnt from them, I try to do better as I grow and learn"

that sounds very reasonable...

I'm saying that on the last day, God will judge humanity by the lives they've lived. Belief in Jesus is at the core of our religion and I don't want to make an exception to that, but I trust that God has His worshippers even among those who have perhaps not heard of Jesus by name. We will see.

I don't think it's reasonable to see sin as merely mistakes. They are more than that. Yes we need healing from them, but our prime issue is with God. We are either seekers after God and realize we are guilty before Him, or we do not.

I think many people are like this who dont believe that jesus was anything more than a teacher, or even a myth...

Perhaps many people are like that, who believe that. That's partly why I'm saying there is more. Jesus should be a figure who captures our attention. I've only known a few Christians who's presence felt like God was with them, and I've never known any nonChristians who were that way, let alone anyone who thinks Jesus is merely a myth. Those who are wanting to find the truth in this life will surely dig deeper than that. It's not that hard. The situation is easier if Christians are out there truly living and preaching the message. Those who seek God will find Him and will find in the end that Jesus is not a mere myth or just a good teacher. He's the Son of God.

What if humans do good. if their evil is unexcusable, shouldnt their good be unexcusable too?

I don't see how that would relate. Good should be natural, evil is what is unnatural.

I notice christians say "ever told a lie? well if you have that makes you a lier!"

Yes I totally agree with you. There's nowhere in the Bible that says that telling one lie makes you a liar. Sin is inexcusible but it is forgivable when repented of. We don't go to hell because we've told one lie, or done one wrong thing, or even 100 wrong things. We go to hell because that's the whole pattern of our lives and we won't give it up nomatter what.

well Ive done good, and Ive done acts of love too, does that make me a good, or a lover? Doesnt it go both ways?

We need to be realistic about both sides of the coin. Both are totally unreasonable. The reason you've heard Christians teach the first is because it is one of the tennants of a very popular theory of the atonement known as penal substitution. But that's just theory, and it's not Bible. I don't believe it and thus I don't believe that one lie makes you a liar who will burn in hell forever. It's having lying be the unrepentant pattern of your life which makes you a liar.

applying labels to people makes it easier to justify torturing them for all time.

Yes you're right.

I dont think torturing conscious beings is fair or just. I think it is wrong. If we challenge our minds, isnt it possible to conceive of a being who forgives ALL, and doesnt take revenge on anyone (this is what gods justice looks like, revenge)?

The God you speak of is bipolar like the yin yang. Such a God has been conceived of, and he's eastern, impersonal, etc.... Whenever we conceive of God, we must conceive of Him as being something. The Bible says He is holy. He is also the creator. We are His creation and as His creation we are to bear the marks of value, goodness and beauty which He's put into us. Evil comes into the picture when we decide to trash these ideals which we have been created to enjoy, and compromise with the value we've been created as. Evil is humanity acting beneath themselves. Beneath what God has made them.

My point has been that it is because what God created was called "good" that He must not tolerate for what is good to become bad. To destroy what is bad and inflict wrath upon it, is to uphold the good. This is burned into humanity's consciousness. Honor needs to be avenged, and according to the Bible vengence belongs to God.

what is the purpose of gods revenge on certain peoiple. does anyuone get anything out of it? ITs like the human who wants to see his brothers killer die. Its bad that his brother was killed. But its not a noble trait to want to see the killer be killed or (in gods case) tortured.

I believe it's a natural trait to wish for vengence upon evil. To want the good guys to win in the end and the bad guys to face the consequences of their actions. If there is no consequence for evil and no reward for good, then everything becomes meaningless. There must be an enforcement of value inorder for value to be valuable. What isn't protected isn't worth protecting, and in the moral realm, vengence is needed inorder to give value back to the good which has had its value robbed and desecrated by evil.

I don't want to paint this picture, but if your wife or daughter was molested, or worse, by a gang, before your eyes, would you forgive the gang as they laughed in your face about what they had done, or would you need to know that the evil they had done against you would not go unpaid? That truly they had put a disbalance in the universe by hurting your innocent family, and that since your family was valuable to God and to you, that God would make sure someday to rub that in every bit as deep into their consciousness and into the consciousness of the universe, as they did to you when they desecrated the sacred and then laughed about it. Would you really want them to go free? The desire for vengence is never said to be evil in the Scriptures when it is given to God.

If evil is not paid for, then why do we not all do it? Then nothing matters. Do you not see that the afterlife is the very thing that ensures the value of this life?

I assume the christian god, and I dont know if I like him that much... he seems to be one of the most unforgiving gods of all the god systems. even allah is said to let people out of hell after a time, because he feels sorry for them.

none of that with god.

On the contrary. The Christian God loved us so much that He came down here as a man and let us spit in His face, offering all of us forgiveness of our sins and the ability to turn from them and follow Him. He could not have reached out further!!!!!!!!!!! But He will never compromise with evil. If He did, then evil would take over the universe and good would cease to exist.

I just have a very hard time agreeing with the torture of people. And all I see is christians defending it and justifying it, like they are bloodthirsty, or eagerly anticipating a great big "told you so" when athiests or de converts MEET THEIR GOD AT JUDGEMENT (in bold scary letters)

You may just be reacting to the Christianity you've been around. There's more to it than just the group you've seen. I don't feel that way.

I would have hoped meeting my creator would have been a beautiful amazing experience no matter what I did... But Im not so sure. pastors make god seem like he barely tolerates us, and is the kind of person that would torture us at the drop of a dime.

They've most often not painted Him in the right terms. He's uncompromising with evil because evil hurts people. It's as simple as that. He hates evil because He loves humanity. Each of us is given until death to repent.

I even go as far to say that if gods master plan includes even one human in hell, somethign is wrong with his plan...

That's Satan's master plan, not God's. God wants all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 2Peter 3:9. Of course there are certain Christians out there who are obsessed with philosophical ideas and say I'm wrong about that. But I'm not.

why? because I can conceive of a world where no one is tortured and everyone is fixed and healed and changed so they only desire good etc...

That's idealism my friend. I'm sure God conceives of such a world aswell. I know I do. But humanity is not willing. That's not God's fault. Humanity wants to be evil and so they are. They consider the passing pleasures of sin greater riches than knowing God. They won't submit to God's laws because they take necessary discipline. They are as naive and foolish as the boy who complains that he can't play with rattlesnakes and eat rat poop.

[Whipartist]

complete annihilation seems about right. I guess its too "merciful" in the eyes of many christians (or muslims) I just think that to punish evil indefinitely is wrong. humans get a lot of things wrong with their justice system here on earth, a lot of it stems from an inability to really fix or help someone labeled as a criminal. Punishing evil may be instinctive, but it still boils down to a need for revenge. In order for there to be in place a system where people get tortured, someone has to be the one enjoying the torture of others, other wise, torture wouldnt be in existance at all.... (if we assume a sentient creator) if whoever designed everything doesnt want people to be tortured, why are there provisions for it? Why not just forgive everyone. Humans make mistakes. many of the m will turn from jesus. many of them will not pick jesus. many of them,born into another religion and ministered to about jesus will still not choose jesus.

Annihilationism is something many Christians believe in. You'll have to dig into the Bible to get what it's talking about. It's talking about an eternal destruction, that's forsure. I personally don't worry about it, because I know that the judgment will be just.

Some people will devote large portions of their lives arguing against the existence of any god, or the christians god, or against allah, it doesnt matter.... Humans make mistakes, and our salvation is dependant on us not making any mistakes. Its like god punishes us for our inate qualities like falibility....

You've got the wrong picture. God wants you to submit to His moral laws and then to follow Him and be willing to love self sacrificially inorder to overcome the evil of this world. He's not going to punish you for mistakes but He certainly will for rebellion. You need to spend more time in the Bible and less time listening to popular Christian teachers. They are mostly full of garbage.

I dont need to know that people who have done evil have recieved justice. torturing them forever is not good.. And righting god with a capital G thing, I look at the universe, and it strikes me "we have a god that cares if we respect or worship or cherish him?" It sounds like a dictator or something "you will obey, you will trust, ghule never makes mistakes, ghule is perfect.... it would be best that you do not question ghule"

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. God wants your respect because He loves you as His creation. To not give Him the proper dignity of having His title be capitalized, just as I would write your name or the name of anyone else, is to dishonor Him. Perhaps you sign your name with a noncaptial first letter. Then perhaps you are disrespecting yourself. You shouldn't. You are God's creation and should be honored and loved. God doesn't need your love or anyone elses. He's complete without all of it. Ultimately it all boils down to what He's asking of you because He knows what's best for you. The most profound enjoyment of life is found in an activity that few truly learn to do. It's called worship. It's not about God's vanity. It's about love for one who is anything but vain. Jesus was like one from whom men turn their faces. A man of sorrows and aquainted with grief.

I guess I dont see humans in as poor a light as you do. and if someone does see them in this poor light, I look forward to forgiveness and healing more than wishing them some awful fate...

Humans are a mixture. Perhaps the more you reverence God, the more you'll see humans in a poor light. The more you question and disrespect God's rule over the universe, the more you'll exalt human reasoning and justification against Him. It's a matter of choosing sides and perspectives. He's the source of all wisdom and His perspective is the only one that is correct.

I think christians think humanity is against god or something, and I agree that this is how the bible portrays it, I think thats kind of silly too. Over all the world view described is too desolate and bleak to be good. All of us are doomed, and god is trying hard to save us. Am I to believe that god has to try? Am I to believe people who could have been okay by god will forever be "not okay with god?"

Does the world really look that good? Starvation, war, beheadings in the middle east, rapes at 1 a minutes in the USA alone. Murders, divorces, shattered relationships. We all paint a pretty face on each day, but life sucks my friend. We are obviously doomed. We don't need God to tell us that. And it isn't that hard to see that if God did create us, then He's not pleased.

it doesnt even seem fair. some people are shown the light and walk in gods grace. what seperates them from anyone else? are they gods children? Do we only become a chiild of god if we repent? Are there people who right now could be a child of god, and never repent and then get dealt with? It seems like we are given too much power.

how can it be that gods creation gets lost to hell? even a fraction of it? IT seems non harmonious, tragic, unbalanced, pathetic even.

If god cant forgive hitler, who can?

Nobody can forgive Hitler until he repents and wants forgiveness. But besides that, yes we are only God's children in the sense of being like Him, if we repent and choose to be like Him. And no I don't think anyone will go to hell who was not given a fair chance. You think too much. You're trying to make sense out of something too big for you. You're not God, don't sweat it. He's got it figured out.

The universe is pathetic because humanity is. The difference between a good and a bad person, between a repentant and unrepentant person is choice. That's not arbitrary, it's mysterous yes, but not arbitrary. Did you ever think that you could do something really stupid, like run out in the middle of a street and point a gun at all the cars until the cops haul you off to jail? You could. Why don't you? Choice. Your destiny is in your hands. Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.

[Whipartist]

what do you mean if I seek Him I will find Him?

I meant that if you begin to study the New Testament, and pray to God humbly, respectfully and not full of your own mind, but putting your faith instead in Him, then in time you will find Him. Listen, He exists, loves you, and came to this earth as the man Jesus Christ. That's simply the truth and it's something that you have to confront. You bear the responsibility of it. Your destiny is in your hands. Remember what we said about choice? Are you going to continue to create God in your mind the way you think He should be, breaking the commandment to not create a God in your own image or the image of earthly things? Or are you going to believe in the God and ask Him to help you with your lack of faith? That's what it comes down to.

We are saved by faith. Jesus said in John 7:16-17 "Jesus therefore answered them, and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. "If any man is willing to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or [whether] I speak from Myself."

If you repent of your sins and turn to God, He will save you. If you keep thinking within your own box, you'll wake up one day and realize you were wrong, but it will be perhaps too late to change. Not because God won't let you but because you won't let yourself.

[shadowman]

Thanks for your replies, they make me look at the whole thing in a different light.

I agree that the world looks doomed. Just by living in this country I am supporting an organizm that is causing and has caused hardships to people around the globe. I know that we live in a story book world of get a job, get a girlk, and party on the weekends, all the while in the same city we have h omeless people, in the same country we have horrible poverty, and in other countries, God only knows whats going on. Then there are |"hotspots" like ireland, darfur, the middle east, etc. It is terrible.

But still, I dont see humans as that bad. obviously they do not compare to a perfect and holy being. But so what? So what if a pious muslim hears about jesus and keeps his faith in allah. So what if I dont start a relationship with jesus (something I think may be all in the mind)... Why must we repent before its too late to a god who never shows up? If god has problems with us and doesnt want us in hell, then why should anyone worry. IT seems like god has given us too much power to eternally screw ourselves over. I know my parents would not convert, my dad is an athiest and my mom believes that everyone on the planet has their way of looking at things...

And I agree, I have a tremendous respect of other cultures that many times see things differently. Im on here because I dont want to pidgeon whole christianity into a bunch of strawmen.

But I still see a god who punishes because we are not perfect as weird. I have believed in jesus in the past. I have done great evil in the past, and Im not sure how god likes it (I was disrespectful at my parents and would get into violent confrontations with them), so I know Ive done evil. But I learned from it and am moving on.

[rhutchin]

hehe so many questions :lol:

So many people think that they have got christianity down pat with all their ideas on hell, salvation, the trinity, the creeds.
The bible is a hopelessly confusing and complicated document, thanks mainly to some guy called Paul and it really needn't be so.
But God made mankind evil and dumb so He treated us like idiots and talked in parables and wrote or inspired some damn confusing stuff.
Hopefully someone up there will rewrite the damn thing properly before too long.


10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable.
11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
12 “so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’”

[Crow]

This thread is being moved to Unorthodox Theology. Please check the guidelines and restrictions for a forum before starting a thread or posting in a forum.

[Whipartist]

Thanks for your replies, they make me look at the whole thing in a different light.

I'm glad. That light didn't come easily. For me too it has been a struggle. I can only tell you that I have put my faith in Jesus Christ and I'm counting on Him for everything. I've learned through many hardships and difficult questions, that though it may take years to find answers, trusting Him has always proven to be the correct choice. I used to be an agnostic because though I was raised in church, everything seemed hypocritical to me.

I agree that the world looks doomed. Just by living in this country I am supporting an organizm that is causing and has caused hardships to people around the globe. I know that we live in a story book world of get a job, get a girlk, and party on the weekends, all the while in the same city we have h omeless people, in the same country we have horrible poverty, and in other countries, God only knows whats going on. Then there are |"hotspots" like ireland, darfur, the middle east, etc. It is terrible.

But still, I dont see humans as that bad. obviously they do not compare to a perfect and holy being. But so what? So what if a pious muslim hears about jesus and keeps his faith in allah.

I pious Muslim is likely to slaughter the person who's telling him about Jesus. In Sudan, unarmed defenseless Christians are being slaughtered mercilessly by pius Muslims. Their wives and daughters are taken away as sex slaves. There's a lot of difference between the two faiths and both sides know it well.

So what if I dont start a relationship with jesus (something I think may be all in the mind)...

A relationship with Jesus would only be all in the mind if Jesus were not who He says He is. If He is who He said He is, then it's something which is very real. God answers my prayers, and I've even seen a miracle or two happen in my time. There's nothing fake about it. But faith is always central and I've found that nomatter how many times my prayers are answered or I see God working in me and around me, I could not believe in Him based on that evidence, but only by a stubborn perseverance to stick with Him nomatter what. I know what I'm loosing. I'm loosing the chance to engage in sin, and in being able to live for myself. I'm having to sacrifice in small ways every day. But I have joy because I am able to live above life, and have the hope that one day the path I've chosen will become universal and take over the whole world. Then evil will be wiped away and life will become the enchanted garden it was always meant to be.

Why must we repent before its too late to a god who never shows up?

You sound like Albert Camus in "Waiting for Godet" The thing is that God is not absent, He's before our very eyes. I don't know about you but I can't look anywhere and not see Him and sense He's there. Perhaps you're just not yet conscious of Him. His hand is over all the world.

I can't live one day without seeing the constant need in the world around me and especially in myself, for repentance. Sin is strangling all of us. What's worse is that not only are people not overcoming it, they have no idea that through Christ, they can and must. This is true among those who call themselves Christians just as much as those who don't. I've known many friendly people in my life, but I'm constantly amazed that they too are destroying their lives. We need help and Christ offers that to us.

If god has problems with us and doesnt want us in hell, then why should anyone worry.

The problem is that we don't like God. How do we expect to be in Heaven and be in His renewed kingdom when we aren't willing to act like it's citizens? If we don't like His kingdom, then we shouldn't have it. Really if you think about it, He shouldn't have to show Himself at all. Right and wrong are instinctive things, and those not willing to do right but instead who do wrong and won't stop, shouldn't be let into God's kingdom, whether He warns them or not. You get what you work for.

IT seems like god has given us too much power to eternally screw ourselves over. I know my parents would not convert, my dad is an athiest and my mom believes that everyone on the planet has their way of looking at things...

That's so familiar a sentiment to me. If you like novels you really ought to read The Brother's Karamazov, by Fyodor Dostoyevsky. You'll find much of your feelings are represented in that book.

God created us in His image. God gave us a lot of power all for ourselves. The ability and right to choose our destiny and to choose love or hate. Whether we screw ourselves over or not with this power is up to us. Only in a reality like this one can real good and evil exists. We aren't programmed robots, we are highly valuable beings, who's lives and stories are filled with real joy, and real pain. That's called drama. That's what we all live for, because life is real and it matters. Those who don't think so tend to shoot themselves.

Wherever there is great goodness, there is the potential for great destruction of it. The more precious and priceless and amazing something is, the more tragic it is when it is destroyed. That's why God placed His moral laws into the universe. Inorder to have the priceless joy, pleasure and romance of love, He tells us that we must not defile it with hate. The beauty of marital sex is guarded by the laws against adultery. The beauty of the human person is guarded by the laws against murder. If we break the moral laws, then beauty and value are trampled upon and life looses some of its joy, and enchantment. The same thing is true with the other laws in the universe. Don't touch fire, don't jump off cliffs, don't eat too much. But some people think fire is fascinating, adultery is pleasurable as opposed to sticking with your own woman. And cliffs look fun to fly off of. It's all very simple, humanity doesn't like rules because they want to live by their own. It doesn't work out very well. A human being is much more than the disfigured pile of bones he becomes when he hits the rocks after jumping of a cliff. We've all taken that jump and it's only by following God that the enchanment to life begins to grow in us again, as we realize just what precious stuff we are playing with every day. Instead of feeling upset that God made life so wonderfully dangerous, we rejoice that it is so wonderful. We could never know the heights of joy or the specialness of love if the odds weren't so steep and the world so perilous.

And I agree, I have a tremendous respect of other cultures that many times see things differently. Im on here because I dont want to pidgeon whole christianity into a bunch of strawmen.

Well I appreciate your quest for objectivity. Taking this responsibility on yourself shows that you are doing the right thing. While you have the light, turn to the light before the darkness comes upon you. Not every force in this world is for good. I'll never meet you knowingly on this planet, but I'm taking the time to try to help you because somebody helped me. The other night while I typed, my wife waited patiently for me to spend time with her after I had worked till 10 that night, until eventually she fell asleep, tired of waiting. This message doesn't stand still. It's not something you find and then just sit there happy you have it. It's a life long battle to tell what you've learned to others and to fight that they can learn it too. It's a life long quest, an impossible mission, to get others to realize through your own sacrifice, that they matter, and to hopefully get them to start making the same sacrifices for others. At work I sometimes hear that song "I keep a searchin for a heart of gold, and I'm getting old." The answer to that song is that instead of searching for a heart of gold, the searcher should become a heart of gold. Searching is not noble enough. One must become what he's searching for and tell others to do the same.

Go, repent of your sins and follow Jesus. Do it. Put your faith in Him, and then when you have questions, don't be afraid to ask them, but don't loose your faith just because you haven't found the answers yet.

But I still see a god who punishes because we are not perfect as weird. I have believed in jesus in the past. I have done great evil in the past, and Im not sure how god likes it (I was disrespectful at my parents and would get into violent confrontations with them), so I know Ive done evil. But I learned from it and am moving on.

Your parents would be amazed if they saw Jesus change your life. God doesn't like the bad things you've done. The reason He doesn't like them is because they are destroying you and the people around you. He can handle that, but He can't let you into His kingdom if you won't change. That's good that you're moving on and changing. That's exactly what you should be doing. God isn't going to punish you because you're not perfect. We talked about that before. He will punish anyone who persists in evil instead of turning to God for help. Beind disrespectful to my parents was only the tip of the iceburg of my sins. I did far worse than that and I needed help out of it. God helped me.

Here's a good passage for someone who is in the shadows.

Ephesians 5:1-14 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. 3 But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and [there must be no] filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light [consists] in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."

I am going away on a trip for a few days so I won't be posting on tweb for a little while probably.

I have been praying for you and I'll pray for your Mom and Dad aswell.

Benjamin

[shadowmaster]

heh

[carelinks]

I wrote elsewhere about this idea- wrong idea, as I see it- that God created us evil:

A loving Father rejoices in our birth, and mourns our [temporary] passing. Whatever we say about ‘human nature’, we say about the Lord Jesus- for He bore our ‘nature’ and yet was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. It’s actually very hard to Biblically define what we mean by ‘human nature’; it’s not some intrinsic piece of ‘sin’ that somehow is metaphysically ingrained into us, upon which the wrath of God abides. So I prefer to speak rather of ‘the human condition’ to avoid this impression. In passing, let’s get it clear that Rom. 8:3 doesn’t speak of something called ‘sin-in-the-flesh’. Students as varied as John Carter and Harry Whittaker [in The Very Devil] have faithfully pointed out that this is neither grammatically nor contextually correct. The Lord Jesus condemned sin; and where and how did He condemn it? In “the flesh”, in that He too lived within the nexus of pressures and influences of this sinful world. He appeared just another man, so much so that when He stood up and indirectly proclaimed Himself Messiah, those who knew Him were amazed; because He had appeared so very ordinary. Truly He was in “the likeness of sinful flesh”, yet without personal sin. 2 Cor. 7:1 exhorts us to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh (RV), not being like those sinners who “defile the flesh” (Jude 8). These passages would imply that the flesh is defiled not by who we are naturally, but by human behaviour and mindsets from which we can separate ourselves. Whilst we consider ourselves so awful that we consider our flesh to be defiled naturally, we will never value the human person, and will give way too easily to sin as if it’s just our natural fate. “In the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom. 8:3) seems to be parallel with “in the likeness of men” and “in fashion as a man” (Phil. 2:7,8). “Sinful flesh” refers therefore to ‘sinful humanity’, rather than implying that we are sinful and offensive to God simply by reason of being human beings. The spotless lamb of God had full human nature, He looked like a man because He was a man, and therefore He looked just like the same men who regularly perform sinful actions.

Now all this is not to say that man is not a mixed-up kid. Our deepest desires are selfish; and we all say ‘Amen’ to Paul’s description of his experience of his own humanity in Romans 7. We see the Hitlers, Auschwitz, the young men who put out the eyes of beautiful horses… and of course we wonder about human depravity. But such depravity, disturbance, delinquency… is clearly enough rooted in a lack of love, of true relationship. Such horrors are not, to me, any proof that something called ‘human nature’ which we each carry within us is so evil of itself. We have the propensity to these things. because our experiences and environment can elicit such responses from us. And of this we all need to soberly beware. But the Lord was like us; and He never sinned. We’re not, therefore, ‘inevitable sinners’. Biblically [and experientially], our need is redemption from sin, rather than from this abstract idea of a ‘nature’. And this was why the Lord died for us, to atone for real, actual, concrete, committed sin, and thereby open up the way of life. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.