what is our love worth

[shadowman]

god wants to be loved, cherished, glorified by us.

but he would have us all damned if we make the wrong choice. infact his default stance to all humans is eternal seperation from himself

so why does he want us to love him so much and all that. why not create better humans who he doesnt think should be thrown into hell?

and lastly: Why does god need the love of humans so bad that he would risk the eternal destiny of the majority of humans to freewill?

[MaxVel]

god wants to be loved, cherished, glorified by us.

Yes... with the proviso that He wants us to do those things because that is what is good for us to do.. they are what we were designed for. (As compared to God wanting those things because He is insecure or needy or something...)



but he would have us all damned if we make the wrong choice. infact his default stance to all humans is eternal seperation from himself

Hmmm... I think you're looking at things from the wrong perspective. The 'default situation' is that we are all separated from God because of our sins. Therefore unless we choose to accept Jesus as our Saviour and as the lord of our life* we will remain separated from God, both here and now, and for ever.

The 'wrong choice' would be us choosing to reject God's free gift of salvation and restoration of relationship through trusting in Jesus Christ. If we reject that, then we have rejected the only means of ending our separation from God.



* I realise that's christian jargon, but it does encapsulate the concepts. If you'd like more explanation, let me know.


so why does he want us to love him so much and all that.

See above. He designed us to be in a loving relationship with Him. Therefore we are functioning best when we are in that relationship. To put it another way, we all have a 'God-shaped' hole in us.


why not create better humans who he doesnt think should be thrown into hell?

Why can't God create humans who would always freely choose to always obey Him and do what is right?

I'm not sure that is actually possible. Humans have moral freedom (ability to freely choose right or wrong moral actions) which seems to imply that it is always possible for humans to disobey God.



and lastly: Why does god need the love of humans so bad that he would risk the eternal destiny of the majority of humans to freewill?

What would the love of humans be worth if it was not freely given and freely chosen? Would it mean anything really? If God made us so that we could not but love Him, then we wouldn't really love him at all.

[Lost]

god wants to be loved, cherished, glorified by us.

but he would have us all damned if we make the wrong choice. infact his default stance to all humans is eternal seperation from himself

so why does he want us to love him so much and all that. why not create better humans who he doesnt think should be thrown into hell?

and lastly: Why does god need the love of humans so bad that he would risk the eternal destiny of the majority of humans to freewill?

I would agree to some extent.
There must have been a much better, more efficient way to produce loving offspring.
The sexual urge is a very poor way to produce quality offspring - totally pathetic actually.
It would have been better to have made it less of a desire and more an option only available to loving and caring parents.

I will be taking this up with God at the first summit meeting in August 53002.
:tongue:

[Soyeong]

I don't think we were created only to love God, but to love each other as well. Sexual urge, intamacy, and the ability to have offspring are among the greatest gifts that God has given us. However, with these great gifts comes the responsibility to use them properly and God has given us guidlines for their best use.

People don't get practice runs to see if they would making loving and caring parents. And if we're using some sort of standard on what qualifies us, then it's likely that none of us would make it.

[Lost]

I don't think we were created only to love God, but to love each other as well. Sexual urge, intamacy, and the ability to have offspring are among the greatest gifts that God has given us. However, with these great gifts comes the responsibility to use them properly and God has given us guidlines for their best use.

People don't get practice runs to see if they would making loving and caring parents. And if we're using some sort of standard on what qualifies us, then it's likely that none of us would make it.

Well thats all fine but the end result is billions of people bound for hell and most with such a terrible upbringing that they have no hope at all of avoiding it.
The current system stinks and is very unfair unless of course you are one of the lucky ones who have reasonable parents and live in a so-called christian country.
Sure there are exceptions but they are just that - exceptions.

Using the current system of sexual urge to produce humans is not a very good system at all - its corrupt and pathetic unless of course hell is not real.

[M.Talkingsworth]

Well thats all fine but the end result is billions of people bound for hell and most with such a terrible upbringing that they have no hope at all of avoiding it.
The current system stinks and is very unfair unless of course you are one of the lucky ones who have reasonable parents and live in a so-called christian country.
Sure there are exceptions but they are just that - exceptions.

Using the current system of sexual urge to produce humans is not a very good system at all - its corrupt and pathetic unless of course hell is not real.

Hi Lost, good to see you.

Wow, this reply has more of an edge than usual. Nevertheless, it is hard to disagree with. The world is a harsh place without doubt.

Cheers,

Matt

[M.Talkingsworth]

god wants to be loved, cherished, glorified by us.

Presumably it is better than being alone.


but he would have us all damned if we make the wrong choice. infact his default stance to all humans is eternal seperation from himself.


I do not think that there is a good reason to think that God's default position towards people is hell. I think that when people do morally wrong things, there are consequences. I do not think that it is accurate to think that at birth, everyone starts out "separated from God".


so why does he want us to love him so much and all that. why not create better humans who he doesnt think should be thrown into hell?


Might be impossible.


and lastly: Why does god need the love of humans so bad that he would risk the eternal destiny of the majority of humans to freewill?

Presumably God does not *need* our love, but he wants it. It is possible that the view of eternal torment to the "lost" is incorrect and they are destroyed. It is also possible that God wanted unpredictable companions, which makes free will necessary.


Really good questions Shadowman. They are excellent ones to ponder and think and talk about. I am not sure there are definite answers but we can certainly ponder.

God Bless,

Matt

[Crow]

This thread has been moved to Unorthodox Theology. Before starting a thread in a particular forum, please check that forum's guidelines to see if the subject matter is appropriate or if it is open to those who are likely to post in it.

[outcast]

do not think that there is a good reason to think that God's default position towards people is hell. I think that when people do morally wrong things, there are consequences. I do not think that it is accurate to think that at birth, everyone starts out "separated from God".

Amen, Infants are not seperated from God, Mental retared people are not seperated from God.
Mankind is only seperated from God when we have knowledge of good and evil. To further illustrate this let say this.

Why do little kids like to run around nake? because they have no Knowledge of Good or evil.
What is a good deffinition of the word "Law". The law tells us what is right and wrong right? so the law could be the same as the knowledge of good and evil, once we are familiar with that and know right from wrong then sin of breaking the law seperates us from God.

[M.Talkingsworth]

, Mental retared people are not seperated from God.


Then the next logical question is, why did God make humans "mentally retarded"? Seems like a good solution to the whole sin and damnation debacle.

God bless,

Matt

[Lost]

Then the next logical question is, why did God make humans "mentally retarded"? Seems like a good solution to the whole sin and damnation debacle.

God bless,

Matt

I don't believe that God does make things this way - he has given man free-will and He is picking up the pieces that result from mans' choices.
God does interfere sometimes in things but it is the exception not the rule.

[M.Talkingsworth]

I don't believe that God does make things this way - he has given man free-will and He is picking up the pieces that result from mans' choices.
God does interfere sometimes in things but it is the exception not the rule.

I agree, that position seems like the only tenable one.

Cheers,

Matt

[Soyeong]

Well thats all fine but the end result is billions of people bound for hell and most with such a terrible upbringing that they have no hope at all of avoiding it.
The current system stinks and is very unfair unless of course you are one of the lucky ones who have reasonable parents and live in a so-called christian country.
Sure there are exceptions but they are just that - exceptions.

Using the current system of sexual urge to produce humans is not a very good system at all - its corrupt and pathetic unless of course hell is not real.
I'm sorry, I cannot comprehend of what a universe where everything is fair. We are given a great gift that come with great responsibilities. Some will use it wisely while others abuse it and in the end, they will all be awarded accordingly. I don't know how God does it, but I believe he judges all of us justly for each and every decision we make. Sure it's not fair, but it was never claimed to be.

[Lost]

I'm sorry, I cannot comprehend of what a universe where everything is fair. We are given a great gift that come with great responsibilities. Some will use it wisely while others abuse it and in the end, they will all be awarded accordingly. I don't know how God does it, but I believe he judges all of us justly for each and every decision we make. Sure it's not fair, but it was never claimed to be.

Well I can't disagree with that - just gotta hope God judges all very fairly because most get a totally hopeless start in life - but then you won't see any of them on these forums.