Christians: Universalism, Yea or Nay?

[RCNicholas]

In another forum I participate on there are a couple of Episcopalian universalists, who seem to believe that all people will eventually be saved. Is this a true or Biblical position? Please give evidence for your opinion. Hopefully it will spark some interesting discussion. :teeth:

[Heartablaze]

Nay. There actually have been quite a few threads on this one, though, but I'll support my claim:

The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

[gharfish]

Does this (the OP) invite the discussion of the purgatorial view of hell--whether or not this is a 'biblically sound' doctrine ?

[shadowman]

I struggle to let myself believe that not everyone would get saved.

How can it be that a creator loses his creations to eternal torture? IT doesnt make any sense. I feel like I am being morally dishonest when I label a plan where NOT everyone gets saved as GOOD. cuz it aint good.

[gharfish]

Shadowman,

Are you familiar with the interpretation of scriptures regarding the nature of the other-worldly hell/the lake of fire that is called conditionalism, or conditional immortality ?

[shadowman]

Shadowman,

Are you familiar with the interpretation of scriptures regarding the nature of the other-worldly hell/the lake of fire that is called conditionalism, or conditional immortality ?



I dont think so...

[Genesius]

I guess Ran Ran doesn't work Sundays.

[spiritmech]

I guess Ran Ran doesn't work Sundays.

pwnage!
sm

[RCNicholas]

Does this (the OP) invite the discussion of the purgatorial view of hell--whether or not this is a 'biblically sound' doctrine ? I'm afraid I'm unaware of the Purgatorial view of Hell. If you're referring to Purgatory as believed by Catholics, I'd call it a Purgatorial view of Heaven. However, I think too much of a detour onto that topic could severely derail the thread. Let's stick strictly to universalism, please. :teeth:

[DesertBerean]

Nay; the Scriptures is very clear that that salvation is by Jesus only.

[god rules]

I struggle to let myself believe that not everyone would get saved.

How can it be that a creator loses his creations to eternal torture? IT doesnt make any sense. I feel like I am being morally dishonest when I label a plan where NOT everyone gets saved as GOOD. cuz it aint good.

people reject the gift of salvation. it is a choice. god didn't make us robots.

[Xmansmommy]

I have been considering this issue a great deal lately and I have had some discussions with some people that hold to universal reconciliation (UR). I noticed some of the scriptures that seemed to indicate UR years ago but I learned that there are more that support it than people realize. I'm not fully persuaded because I truly don't think God will force anyone to have eternal life if they don't want to. But I am very sympathetic toward the view.

So often I hear people get irate at the thought of God saving a murderer vs themselves. Surely their mindset is "See look, I'm not THAT bad!" But in the grand scheme of things don't the scriptures say that while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us? What makes us better than them? I think if we all knew exactly how selfish we were and how we have harmed God, others and self, we wouldn't be so quick to condemn others. We all have the same capacity to do wicked and we have.

Maybe in the end God will save anyone who don't desire the alternative (eternal death). It surely is worth hoping for. And I personally do.

[gharfish]

I'm afraid I'm unaware of the Purgatorial view of Hell. If you're referring to Purgatory as believed by Catholics, I'd call it a Purgatorial view of Heaven. However, I think too much of a detour onto that topic could severely derail the thread. Let's stick strictly to universalism, please. :teeth:Purgatory is a central part of [Christian] universalism. I only asked; neither do I care to discuss that particular RC tradition if that is a severe detour/derailment for you.

[RCNicholas]

Purgatory is a central part of [Christian] universalism. If it is I'll need you to explain how. If you think Purgatory (or some strange version of Purgatory) is part of universalist teaching, please don't hesitate to bring it up (but if not, I don't want to derail the thread). If you're asking about the Catholic Purgatory, it has nothing to do with universalism. If some other Christian group(s) understand(s) Purgatory differently, and it leads them to a universalist stance, you'll have to explain.

[RCNicholas]

I have been considering this issue a great deal lately and I have had some discussions with some people that hold to universal reconciliation (UR). I noticed some of the scriptures that seemed to indicate UR years ago but I learned that there are more that support it than people realize.Would you point out the verses you think support universalism?

[shadowman]

people reject the gift of salvation. it is a choice. god didn't make us robots.

its still a bad plan. in the big picture of absolute reality, we find conscious beings tormented forever?

is that good?

I think its weird that a god who would give us everything, eternal life, no more sorrow etc... also would torture us forever.

how can the same being "want" to do this to his creations? if he wants to give us eternal life, he should. Not put us in some rat maze where many will be lost to hell....

[Xmansmommy]

Would you point out the verses you think support universalism?

Sure, if you give me a day or two. :smile:

[shadowman]

yes I wasnt going by the bible. But I think its screwy to have a point where humans are forever sealed in their doom where the creator turns his back on them..... "you had your chANCE, its too late, feel my wrath and vengeance" - is this the voice of the creator of all the wonders of the earth and universe (not to mention the utter brutality found in nature and humans)? whats the point of putting conscious beings through such a horrible test that will end in their being burned alive for all time. how can it be that the master plan of all time includes people going through ETERNAL SUFFERING? its not good. it doesnt matter what the bible says. its just not good. its morally wrong. mercy is a higher trait than vengeance or wrath. justice looses its meaning once you consider the thought of people being damned forever.....

[gharfish]

God can be a killer; yes. But He is not a torturer. The lost to God perish forever at some point in "hell," by some means yet unknown--in the lake of fire, which is the second death. They are destroyed everlastingly, rather than [to be] given the gift of forgiveness of sins, and with it: everlasting life.

[shadowman]

what makes you think that the lost arent eternally floating around in boiling oil (lake of fire)

[B21C9L15]

In another forum I participate on there are a couple of Episcopalian universalists, who seem to believe that all people will eventually be saved. Is this a true or Biblical position? Please give evidence for your opinion. Hopefully it will spark some interesting discussion. :teeth:

No.

Romans:9
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

There were vessels fitted to destruction.

[shadowman]

No.

Romans:9
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

There were vessels fitted to destruction.

that must be where I fit in

[shadowman]

are the people destroyed by him because of not converting also his vessels of destruction? (like athiests, people that lost faith, people that heard but rejected, people of other faiths who dont convert)

do people turn into gods children when they convert?

so everyone on earth has an opportunity to be either a vessel of destruction or a child of the most high?

[god rules]

its still a bad plan. in the big picture of absolute reality, we find conscious beings tormented forever?

is that good?

I think its weird that a god who would give us everything, eternal life, no more sorrow etc... also would torture us forever.

how can the same being "want" to do this to his creations? if he wants to give us eternal life, he should. Not put us in some rat maze where many will be lost to hell....

Example: If you knew your children loved u because they were forced to by you(parent) what kind of love would that be? love with conditions, not genuine. The bible speaks of god's undying love, a sacrificial love(Christ's death). He took our place of suffering so we wouldn't die in our sins. All you have to do is accept the free gift. To me this describes the greatest love of all. What greater love that a man lay his life down for a friend.

[mickiel]

I do not totally agree with the Universalist that I am aware of, nor the Christians that I am aware of, but I do agree with a feww beliefs from both. However, I think the term" Christian Universalist", is misleading. If I am to define each particular group, both hold drastically differing beliefs.

So in my view, the two cannot be mixed or combined. The term " Christian" has become so common, so readily used and claimed, that it has lost its real power , in my view. The term " Universalist", is directly oppisite, its relitively unknown and mostly misinterpited.

The term " Christian" has become the accepted term that discribes a believer in God. I no longer accept it because it has been tainted , in my view of the term. My humble apologys for saying so.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

In another forum I participate on there are a couple of Episcopalian universalists, who seem to believe that all people will eventually be saved. Is this a true or Biblical position? Please give evidence for your opinion. Hopefully it will spark some interesting discussion. :teeth:

No, unless they want to open salvation to the demons and the devil himself

[RCNicholas]

No, unless they want to open salvation to the demons and the devil himself
I think most Universalists would say that all mankind will be saved, not necessarily all demons, etc. How do you respond to that?

[Littlejoe9763]

Yesterday I posted what would have been my opening/rebuttal of the debate that was scheduled with RanRan over this very subject. You can read it here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=2032713&postcount=16). It's getting rave reviews! :blush:

LJ

[Bill the Cat]

I think most Universalists would say that all mankind will be saved, not necessarily all demons, etc. How do you respond to that?

Make 'em prove that one person bowing their knee is different from the demons bowing their knee to start with

[shadowman]

people reject the gift of salvation. it is a choice. god didn't make us robots.

why have a point where it is too late? like after death.

[shadowman]

are the people destroyed by him because of not converting also his vessels of destruction? (like athiests, people that lost faith, people that heard but rejected, people of other faiths who dont convert)

do people turn into gods children when they convert?

so everyone on earth has an opportunity to be either a vessel of destruction or a child of the most high?

any thoughts?

I see it like people always say "god has a PLAN for you!!" but if you dont accept him, there is no plan, and your plan is to be tortured after death...

does god want us in hell or with him? as long as he makes it possible for humans to go to hell, he must want both.

its weird that he puts us into this rat race of life knowing we all need to be savewd by him, but he never shows up and proves that he has a problemn with us. in fact we arent even clear on what his so called book is saying......

[shadowman]

Example: If you knew your children loved u because they were forced to by you(parent) what kind of love would that be? love with conditions, not genuine. The bible speaks of god's undying love, a sacrificial love(Christ's death). He took our place of suffering so we wouldn't die in our sins. All you have to do is accept the free gift. To me this describes the greatest love of all. What greater love that a man lay his life down for a friend.

But it isn't free. The gift requires something from the recipient otherwise the offer is null and void and the horrific penalty is imposed.

It isn't love, either.

the love you speak of from god is conditional, the condition is claim jesus as lord...

why is there a point of no return on "Accepting a free gift"

why is god even dowing all this, hiding in subjective human experience, not comming forward and showing himself to a degree that would save the whole world.

why is he even running this game knowing that millions are going to hell....

[RCNicholas]

But it isn't free. The gift requires something from the recipient otherwise the offer is null and void and the horrific penalty is imposed.When you get presents at Christmas time, do you suppose they cost you something? Of course not, someone else went out, bought them, and brought them right to you. Does that mean that if you throw their gift in the trash, it will do you any good? Of course not.

It isn't love, either.Allowing people to make a choice is not loving? So in other words, forcing everyone to accept Him is more loving, to you?

the love you speak of from god is conditional, the condition is claim jesus as lord...No, God will love you even if you reject Him...that doesn't mean that there are no consequences if you do.

why is there a point of no return on "Accepting a free gift"Because at some point we must be held accountable. That's like asking why there's a time limit on tests. "Well, let me just leave the classroom, go home, hop on the Internet, find all the answers, and then I'll get back to you with that 100%." :ahem:


why is god even dowing all this, hiding in subjective human experience, not comming forward and showing himself to a degree that would save the whole world.He has shown Himself to a degree that would save the whole world. He came down into a human body and died the most horrific death imaginable after doing nothing wrong, to show us the power of love and forgiveness. The problem is, the whole world doesn't want to be saved.

why is he even running this game knowing that millions are going to hellBecause He knows millions are going to heaven. :smile:

[shadowman]

I would not say forcing a gift is more loving. I just think this whole reality is awful. If he had shown himself to a degree that would save the whole world, the whole world would be saved.

people shouldnt go to hell, there shouldnt be provisions for the possibility of going to hell. hell shouldnt be created, and creating such an idea is awful...

its like wars. wars should never have been created....

accountability is BS, this is painting two pictures of the same god. one who lets everything slide, and one who judges steeply on every manner of sin. why does god want both of these things... it just doesnt make sense. whats the point of judging all humans and condeming them to hell? who benefits from this?

[shadowman]

so god is using this life as a means of throwing away the garbage in the human garden?

and everyone is garbage if they dont have jesus?

and worthy of hell?

[RCNicholas]

I would not say forcing a gift is more loving. I just think this whole reality is awful. If he had shown himself to a degree that would save the whole world, the whole world would be saved.What degree would save the whole world? Jesus appeared in human flesh right here on Earth, made it beyond obvious who He was, and they nailed Him to the cross. Adam and Eve walked in the garden with God, in direct communion with the Creator of the universe, and turned their back on Him. God has done enough. At some point, we as human beings must accept responsibility.

people shouldnt go to hell, there shouldnt be provisions for the possibility of going to hell. hell shouldnt be created, and creating such an idea is awful...The doors of Hell are locked from the inside. God would not be just if He did not keep His word. He told us that sin leads to death, and God will not force anyone back to Him.

accountability is BS, this is painting two pictures of the same god. one who lets everything slide, and one who judges steeply on every manner of sin. why does god want both of these things... it just doesnt make sense. It does when you understand that God is both completely Just and completely Merciful, and He is the One who defines objectively what those things mean. If you acknowledge Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, God will be merciful to you and forgive you all your sins. If you don't, then Justice dictates that you continue to be separated from God, as you have chosen to do.

[god rules]

But it isn't free. The gift requires something from the recipient otherwise the offer is null and void and the horrific penalty is imposed.

It isn't love, either.

the love you speak of from god is conditional, the condition is claim jesus as lord...

why is there a point of no return on "Accepting a free gift"

why is god even dowing all this, hiding in subjective human experience, not comming forward and showing himself to a degree that would save the whole world.

why is he even running this game knowing that millions are going to hell....

It seems to me you're not even giving jesus an opportunity to have a relationship with you. If you ask him, he will reveal himself to you in a way that will touch your heart. He deals with each one of us individually. When you get to know him intimately, you will realize he is not up there waiting to condemn you. He is waiting for you to call out to him and tap into the love he has for you. Take your focus off the" whip in the sky mentality" this is what religion says and is a lie from the devil. Jesus is all about a relationship not religion.

[god rules]

I would not say forcing a gift is more loving. I just think this whole reality is awful. If he had shown himself to a degree that would save the whole world, the whole world would be saved.

people shouldnt go to hell, there shouldnt be provisions for the possibility of going to hell. hell shouldnt be created, and creating such an idea is awful...

its like wars. wars should never have been created....

accountability is BS, this is painting two pictures of the same god. one who lets everything slide, and one who judges steeply on every manner of sin. why does god want both of these things... it just doesnt make sense. whats the point of judging all humans and condeming them to hell? who benefits from this?

accountability is BS? so if someone came into your home and robbed you blind and shot your wife and kids, he shouldn't be held accountable? The judge should say to him"accountability is BS, go and be free". That sounds to me like anarchy. Not a world i would want to live in.

[mickiel]

Often I am amazed by what people believe God is going to do. I offer this graphic illustration of just how far men have gone in their belief. Our belief is an expression of what we think God is, which is just an interpitation of what we believe God is like, because we post to the world the awful things that WE THINK he will do.

In order for everlasting hell torture to be true, believers in it are suggesting that this is what God will do:

He will give Sin and Evil eternal Life. He will give it a home of its own, or a special place of existance. So God will construct an eternal world of misery, all to itself. Then he will place humans into its eternal misery and pain. Now, it is not possible for a human to live forever in torment, so God must give them eternal life, but then also give them " Super humanoid Bodies". Their bodies must be uniquely made and created to endure constant pain and misery, without decomposure of any kind, they must be constantly renewing, but at the same time, able to " Feel and experience "the pain. After all, why put someone through this great level of misery, if they can't feel and experience each barbaric second of it, that would make no sense. We can't give them any breaks or restbids.

Now, no human mind could endure this torture without going insane eventually. What, the best of us might last 999 billion years, then maybe start going mad. Now, surely God willnot allow this. 999billion years is not even a beginning of eternity, not even 789 trillion billion years of suffering is a " Beginning of Eternity." So, God must also give these poor super humanoid creatures, a super humanoid mind, to go along with their bodies. We wouldnot want any of them passing out on us, now would we? No, no, they must stay conscious forever, time is not of the essence, they must be aware of the misery. Each precious second of it. So God must give a totally renewed, super mind, which can mentally absorb this highly organized pain amphlifier, and not go crazy.

Now, these humanoids will be quite formidable and strong, I would imagine it reasonable that they would be highly irritated with God for banishing them into this misrable existance. So God must post at least a legion of very powerful Angels there to keep them from getting out, we wouldnot want any of them getting out, now would we?

This is a short illustration of what people are believing, actually desiring, God to do.

I tell you, our view of God is not what it should be. Its like we are looking at him through some dark lenses, and getting a darkened picture of what he is like. I ask forgiveness if this view offends. And I admit my offense to the beliefs that God would do such a thing.

Peace.

[B21C9L15]

Often I am amazed by what people believe God is going to do. I offer this graphic illustration of just how far men have gone in their belief. Our belief is an expression of what we think God is, which is just an interpitation of what we believe God is like, because we post to the world the awful things that WE THINK he will do.

In order for everlasting hell torture to be true, believers in it are suggesting that this is what God will do:

He will give Sin and Evil eternal Life. He will give it a home of its own, or a special place of existance. So God will construct an eternal world of misery, all to itself. Then he will place humans into its eternal misery and pain. Now, it is not possible for a human to live forever in torment, so God must give them eternal life, but then also give them " Super humanoid Bodies". Their bodies must be uniquely made and created to endure constant pain and misery, without decomposure of any kind, they must be constantly renewing, but at the same time, able to " Feel and experience "the pain. After all, why put someone through this great level of misery, if they can't feel and experience each barbaric second of it, that would make no sense. We can't give them any breaks or restbids.

Now, no human mind could endure this torture without going insane eventually. What, the best of us might last 999 billion years, then maybe start going mad. Now, surely God willnot allow this. 999billion years is not even a beginning of eternity, not even 789 trillion billion years of suffering is a " Beginning of Eternity." So, God must also give these poor super humanoid creatures, a super humanoid mind, to go along with their bodies. We wouldnot want any of them passing out on us, now would we? No, no, they must stay conscious forever, time is not of the essence, they must be aware of the misery. Each precious second of it. So God must give a totally renewed, super mind, which can mentally absorb this highly organized pain amphlifier, and not go crazy.

Now, these humanoids will be quite formidable and strong, I would imagine it reasonable that they would be highly irritated with God for banishing them into this misrable existance. So God must post at least a legion of very powerful Angels there to keep them from getting out, we wouldnot want any of them getting out, now would we?

This is a short illustration of what people are believing, actually desiring, God to do.

I tell you, our view of God is not what it should be. Its like we are looking at him through some dark lenses, and getting a darkened picture of what he is like. I ask forgiveness if this view offends. And I admit my offense to the beliefs that God would do such a thing.

Peace.

Mickiel, actually, those who believe in hell will actually be the guardians of hell. God knows that the sighing, crying, and shoutings of those in hell will be music to those who believe in hell. I can just imagine how these people feel so good knowing how they escaped of their unworthiness.

I really wonder how people could create a theology that by merely "believing" they become born again. Well, one thing I knew, those who believed in hell became "new creatures!" :eek:

BCL
.

[god rules]

Mickiel, actually, those who believe in hell will actually be the guardians of hell. God knows that the sighing, crying, and shoutings of those in hell will be music to those who believe in hell. I can just imagine how these people feel so good knowing how they escaped of their unworthiness.

I really wonder how people could create a theology that by merely "believing" they become born again. Well, one thing I knew, those who believed in hell became "new creatures!"

People didn't create this, actually it is JESUS spoken words from the bible. So the question is"do you believe JESUS?"

[mickiel]

Well my illustration of what this " Believed Hell" would be like, is really far short of the stark reality of how horrible this belief is, and thus is a false reflection on God. I don't care how Christians try to excuse God away from their hell belief, no kind of place can exist without God creating it. And there can be no eternity of anything unless God gives it and substains it. AND desires it, because only what God desires will last, that is an absolute reality.

Christians are not bad people, well not all of them, they just hold to bad beliefs.

I don't think people understand eternity, how long time without end is. To actually believe that God has willed that the suppossed constant terror of endless enduring misery is JUST, is really mind boggling, but shows the extent to which our belief can be distorted, and we still think it to be righteous. And Christianity holds many oif these beliefs, just as mind boggling, in other areas.

They don't seem to understand what kind of place their hell WOULD be, if it were real. Their hell would be CONSTANT PRESSURE, never before endured by anyone. Now, God is constant, he is enduring and does not, willnot change in his mannerisms. It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to co-exist in eternity with this imagined hell. They believe, actually believe, God will excert this kind of unholy pressure forever, and I call it unholy, because it certainly wouldnot be Holy, or befitting of God.

It is an insult to his Holy integrity, thats all it is, and its being marketed by believers in him. And thats what Jesus meant by" In vain do you worship Me", because the sheer gall of teaching that in Gods righteouss name is vanity and vextation, and God does not accept that kind of worship.

Peace.

[B21C9L15]

People didn't create this, actually it is JESUS spoken words from the bible. So the question is"do you believe JESUS?"

I believe Jesus, but NOT your interpretations.

BCL

[B21C9L15]

Well my illustration of what this " Believed Hell" would be like, is really far short of the stark reality of how horrible this belief is, and thus is a false reflection on God. I don't care how Christians try to excuse God away from their hell belief, no kind of place can exist without God creating it. And there can be no eternity of anything unless God gives it and substains it. AND desires it, because only what God desires will last, that is an absolute reality.

Christians are not bad people, well not all of them, they just hold to bad beliefs.

I don't think people understand eternity, how long time without end is. To actually believe that God has willed that the suppossed constant terror of endless enduring misery is JUST, is really mind boggling, but shows the extent to which our belief can be distorted, and we still think it to be righteous. And Christianity holds many oif these beliefs, just as mind boggling, in other areas.

They don't seem to understand what kind of place their hell WOULD be, if it were real. Their hell would be CONSTANT PRESSURE, never before endured by anyone. Now, God is constant, he is enduring and does not, willnot change in his mannerisms. It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to co-exist in eternity with this imagined hell. They believe, actually believe, God will excert this kind of unholy pressure forever, and I call it unholy, because it certainly wouldnot be Holy, or befitting of God.

It is an insult to his Holy integrity, thats all it is, and its being marketed by believers in him. And thats what Jesus meant by" In vain do you worship Me", because the sheer gall of teaching that in Gods righteouss name is vanity and vextation, and God does not accept that kind of worship.

Peace.

When I was a young believer, I did not mind about hell. But when I kept hearing people who believe and insists of the reality of hell, I begun to fear them more than unbelievers. Their belief speaks much of their character: their willingness to condemn people who cannot even understand why those whom they condemn deserve such eternal pain. It really astounds me of the impossibility of convincing these people to be just. Really, will these people be just? I don't think so, just being honest.:uneasy:


BCL

,

[mickiel]

There are two lessons here: one, that people can claim to represent God, and yet do not, and two, that people who claim to represent God are really the ones who don't want humanity as a whole to be with him. So the self proclaimed followers of God are the ones who want to keep God to themselves, and they call the Salvation of all, a heresey, or a fanatical belief. They think the desire to save all is a fantasy and is false. They really don't believe that with God ALL things are possible, in no way do Christians believe that. It kind of hurts me that the world thinks Christians are represenitives of God, because the things they teach are so not like Gods real characther.

God is not going to let people suffer for all time, don't you believe these Christians.

And God is not willing that any of us should perish, and I have never seen in scripture where God has not gotten his wish.

Peace.

[god rules]

I believe Jesus, but NOT your interpretations.

BCL

The unfortunate reality is, Jesus speaks of a real place called Hell in the bible. I would surely hold your belief that there is NO Hell if you could show me in scripture where it states that hell does not EXIST.

[god rules]

There are two lessons here: one, that people can claim to represent God, and yet do not, and two, that people who claim to represent God are really the ones who don't want humanity as a whole to be with him. So the self proclaimed followers of God are the ones who want to keep God to themselves, and they call the Salvation of all, a heresey, or a fanatical belief. They think the desire to save all is a fantasy and is false. They really don't believe that with God ALL things are possible, in no way do Christians believe that. It kind of hurts me that the world thinks Christians are represenitives of God, because the things they teach are so not like Gods real characther.

God is not going to let people suffer for all time, don't you believe these Christians.

And God is not willing that any of us should perish, and I have never seen in scripture where God has not gotten his wish.

Peace.

Of course God desires all be saved but that doesn't mean all will be saved. So basically do whatever you want, live any lifestyle you choose because in the end all things are possilble with God. Why should anyone try to live a holy life when we are all going to heaven anyway.

[mickiel]

Its so unbelivable that people can say this out of their mouths and miss it. This person admits that God desires something, but believes that God willnot get what he desires. This is a rank misunderstanding about just how powerful they think God is NOT. Its incredible, but people actually think that God does not get what he desires. Simply incredible. God is all powerful, omnipotent, off the scale of ability, but he can't get what he desires.

It just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me, what are these people thinking? How can anyone with intelligence not see how weird this is. These people think the great God will not get what he desires.

Peace.

[RCNicholas]

Its so unbelivable that people can say this out of their mouths and miss it. This person admits that God desires something, but believes that God willnot get what he desires. This is a rank misunderstanding about just how powerful they think God is NOT. Its incredible, but people actually think that God does not get what he desires. Simply incredible. God is all powerful, omnipotent, off the scale of ability, but he can't get what he desires.
Actually it's a simple distinction made in the original Greek itself. God has two wills, denoted by two distinct Greek words in Scripture (I can give you the words in Greek if you like). He has both a desirous will, and a determinitive will. Thus, some things He desirously wills that He does not determinitively will, and some things He does not desirously will He does determinitively will. In the verse in question regarding God desiring all people to be saved, the word used there for "wills" or "wants" is God's desirous will. That doesn't mean that the desire has necesarily been determined to happen.

[B21C9L15]

Actually it's a simple distinction made in the original Greek itself. God has two wills, denoted by two distinct Greek words in Scripture (I can give you the words in Greek if you like). He has both a desirous will, and a determinitive will. Thus, some things He desirously wills that He does not determinitively will, and some things He does not desirously will He does determinitively will. In the verse in question regarding God desiring all people to be saved, the word used there for "wills" or "wants" is God's desirous will. That doesn't mean that the desire has necesarily been determined to happen.

Still the same weird, screwed, reasoning.....really.

BCL

.

[B21C9L15]

The unfortunate reality is, Jesus speaks of a real place called Hell in the bible. I would surely hold your belief that there is NO Hell if you could show me in scripture where it states that hell does not EXIST.

Jesus even said the he sent "fire" on earth, point to me where that "fire" is.

BCL

.

[god rules]

Its so unbelivable that people can say this out of their mouths and miss it. This person admits that God desires something, but believes that God willnot get what he desires. This is a rank misunderstanding about just how powerful they think God is NOT. Its incredible, but people actually think that God does not get what he desires. Simply incredible. God is all powerful, omnipotent, off the scale of ability, but he can't get what he desires.

It just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me, what are these people thinking? How can anyone with intelligence not see how weird this is. These people think the great God will not get what he desires.

Peace.

As we look at the nature of God revealed in the Bible, it is clear that He is the ultimate Power, Wisdom and Knowledge behind the Universe. To claim to understand completely the character of God, would be a vain affirmation.

ROM 11:33 ¶ Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
ROM 11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
ROM 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Although God is all-powerful, He chooses to use His power in various ways. In the same way, God, although He has the ability to know all things and to even know all things beforehand, does not use this ability. Several passages in the Bible indicate that God, for reasons that He alone knows, chooses not to know certain things ahead of time. Then, when the appropriate time comes for Him to discover and act in the situation, then He does.
example:

After commanding Abraham to sacrifice his only son, the angel of the Lord stops Abraham from doing so. The reason He gives is, now God knows that Abraham fears Him and is not willing to withhold anything, including his son from Him.

GEN 22:10 And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
GEN 22:11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!"And he said, "Here I am."
GEN 22:12 And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

In other words, I am saying that yes, God knows all that He needs to know in order to allow men and women to make free choices as to how they will react to Him. Then, based on their choices and His discovery of them He is able to make whatever decisions are necessary for the accomplishment of His purpose in the world.

[god rules]

God's ways are higher than our ways. They are ways that go beyond our finite minds.

[B21C9L15]

God's ways are higher than our ways. They are ways that go beyond our finite minds.

You just "admitted" your ignorance of God's ways, who are you to tell me what is right? Since you admit ignorance, didn't it even occur to your mind that I may be right?

One thing, those words you quoted are spoken to those ignorant, but God reveal his word to the elect. There is no confusion and darkness unto the elect.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 John 1:5-6
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

BCL

.

[god rules]

You just "admitted" your ignorance of God's ways, who are you to tell me what is right? Since you admit ignorance, didn't it even occur to your mind that I may be right?

One thing, those words you quoted are spoken to those ignorant, but God reveal his word to the elect. There is no confusion and darkness unto the elect.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 John 1:5-6
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

BCL

.
This is how things get taken out of context.
1. I'm not telling you what is right. The bible or god's word tells you what is right.
2. I don't rely on any man for wisdom i go to God.
3. Ignorance comes from pride, thinking we can gain wisdom not seeking god.
4. "god's ways "refers to God's plan for the world and for our individual lives. NOT how were
suppose to live out our faith.

[mickiel]

Although God is all-powerful, He chooses to use His power in various ways. In the same way, God, although He has the ability to know all things and to even know all things beforehand, does not use this ability. Several passages in the Bible indicate that God, for reasons that He alone knows, chooses not to know certain things ahead of time. Then, when the appropriate time comes for Him to discover and act in the situation, then He does.
:
]



Well I certainly disagree with this. It is an incredible teaching, to teach that God does not use his power to know all things before hand, simply incredible to state that. What then is predestination? Its God using his power to not only know things before hand, but influence those things way , way before they even occur. God does not " Choose" to know things before hand, he DOES know ALL things before hand, its not a choice of his, its how HE IS! This teaching is just another effort by people to limit God.

The very reason God is Omnipresent, is BECAUSE he knows all things before hand. God has ALREADY PERSONALLY experienced everything that humanity has not. He has already been into our future, because HE IS our future. He is the beginning and the ending, simply because he created all of it, willed ALL of it, fashioned all of it , been there done that.

You cannot limit God. Your doctrines and beliefs have sought to do it, but it is already done, sealed and no human belief can do anything about this. Our destiny is sealed BECAUSE God has beforehand sealed it.

Our Salvation is sealed, our future is sealed, and our eternal life is sealed.

And I , for one, am very happy of that. I don't have to worry about my destiny or anyonelses, we are safe and secure because God is using his power of predestination.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

Our Salvation is sealed, our future is sealed, and our eternal life is sealed.

So no need to live righteously. Lie, steal, cuss, rape, murder, pillage, fornicate, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit with your dying breath... all is forgiven.

[mickiel]

So no need to live righteously. Lie, steal, cuss, rape, murder, pillage, fornicate, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit with your dying breath... all is forgiven.

The blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, willnot be forgiven, but all the other sins you listed, Jesus stated very clearly that all those will be in Mark 3:28. All the behavior you listed, that you think willnot be forgiven by God, Jesus preached and taught that they will be, and that is what I believe. I can see that you don't believe Jesus when he said this.

I also believe that no human can or has ever blasphemed the Holy Spirit, I just do not see that as possible to do, and I admit to not understanding even how to do it complettely.

Listen, why forgive each and every sin men will committ, then turn around and say, well all but one. Sorry, I could have been perfect in my forgiveness, but I think I'll keep one sin that I will withold it from. Why do you think Jesus would do that? Lets just speculate and calculate that there are 122,000 possible sins to committ. Now, Jesus said all of them will be forgiven, what then about the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has Jesus so reluctant to forgive just it?

Well, I don't know. I really do not understand that. But what you are really asking is this: Well now people can just live like they want to and God will still save them? The answer is YES! Thats exactly what Isreal did, and thats exactly what God did, he saved them anyway. Because Salvation is a gift, it is not a reward for righteous living.

Peace

[RCNicholas]

Still the same weird, screwed, reasoning.....really.

BCL

.
Biblical language employs "weird, screwed reasoning" that every person doesn't accept?.....Yea, I buy that. :teeth: Doesn't change the fact that it's the way that it is, though.

[RCNicholas]

Well I certainly disagree with this. It is an incredible teaching, to teach that God does not use his power to know all things before hand, simply incredible to state that. What then is predestination? Its God using his power to not only know things before hand, but influence those things way , way before they even occur. God does not " Choose" to know things before hand, he DOES know ALL things before hand, its not a choice of his, its how HE IS! This teaching is just another effort by people to limit God.So then, according to you, EVERYONE is elect, since everyone is foreordained to salvation ultimately? In essence you nullify the very meaning of election then.

[B21C9L15]

Biblical language employs "weird, screwed reasoning" that every person doesn't accept?.....Yea, I buy that. :teeth: Doesn't change the fact that it's the way that it is, though.

I don't get it, Nicholas, you accept that God had a choice, but he did not. That's simply what I understand from what you said. Do you really mean that that is the fact?

[mickiel]

So then, according to you, EVERYONE is elect, since everyone is foreordained to salvation ultimately? In essence you nullify the very meaning of election then.



No, I simply see election for what it means, first the firstfruits, then everyonelse. You simply don't see everyonelse, only the firstfruits. Thats because your view of Salvation, or election, is limited. Conversely, it is really your view that looks to nullify the meaning of the word. Not mine.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

The blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, willnot be forgiven, but all the other sins you listed, Jesus stated very clearly that all those will be in Mark 3:28. All the behavior you listed, that you think willnot be forgiven by God, Jesus preached and taught that they will be, and that is what I believe. I can see that you don't believe Jesus when he said this.

I also believe that no human can or has ever blasphemed the Holy Spirit, I just do not see that as possible to do, and I admit to not understanding even how to do it complettely.

Listen, why forgive each and every sin men will committ, then turn around and say, well all but one. Sorry, I could have been perfect in my forgiveness, but I think I'll keep one sin that I will withold it from. Why do you think Jesus would do that? Lets just speculate and calculate that there are 122,000 possible sins to committ. Now, Jesus said all of them will be forgiven, what then about the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has Jesus so reluctant to forgive just it?

Well, I don't know. I really do not understand that. But what you are really asking is this: Well now people can just live like they want to and God will still save them? The answer is YES! Thats exactly what Isreal did, and thats exactly what God did, he saved them anyway. Because Salvation is a gift, it is not a reward for righteous living.

Peace

Then you invalidate the entire New Testament except the crucifixion. Paul wasted paper, John wasted paper, Peter wasted paper. Your belief turns God's just nature into a sham. We need not even believe in Him, so John 3:16 is a waste of Jesus' breath. That is a sad sad reality you live in.

[mickiel]

Then you invalidate the entire New Testament except the crucifixion. Paul wasted paper, John wasted paper, Peter wasted paper. Your belief turns God's just nature into a sham. We need not even believe in Him, so John 3:16 is a waste of Jesus' breath. That is a sad sad reality you live in.



Well you have two things right, I am alive and I do live in a reality, but it is not sad. And I will give my view of John 3:16. God so Loves the World. The " So", indicates an intense emphisis on Gods desire, he's really in Love with the world. Every place the bible mentions the " World", it always exclusively means unbelieving sinners. It never means the church or believers. Now, he GAVE Jesus because of his Love for SINNERS, thats why Jesus said he came not for the righteous, or believers, but FOR THE SINNERS that his Father so Loves. Theres Jesus purpose for comming to the earth. Salvation is ALL about and concentrated on sinners and unbelievers.

Now conversion is when God transforms the unbeliever into a believer. Then whoever is now a believer , simply will not perish, but is destined for eternal life. This is a process that each and every person will go through. Because God didNOT send Jesus into the world to judge the world, but sent him to SAVE the World! vs.17. The focus is on the Salvation of the world, but strangely we have believers in God, focusing on the Judgement of the World. Why is that? Well because their belief is based on Judgement and not the Salvation of Sinners. God is focused on the Salvation of the sinners of the world, but some of his followers are focused on the judgement of the world. I see and have observed this, I have written about it, and I am accused of living in a sad reality.

Vs.18, the person who believes in God is not judged, or they are not Gods real focus. Why should they be, they already believe, their on the right path. Those who do not believe have been JUDGED ALREADY! Because they do not believe in Jesus name, they are already judged. Jesus came to earth to save sinners who were ALREADY JUDGED! God judged sinners before Jesus even came to earth. Now what is the Judgement? Is it the condemnation of everlasting hell punishment that the Christians are embracing and upholding in their worship? The judgement is clearly explained in the very next verse. 19; And this IS the Judgement: That Light has COME INTO THE WORLD! Gods Judgement that he has already pronounced over sinful humanity, is to receive the Light of the World.

Gods Judgement was not to put men in Darkness forever, his Judgement was to SEND his Son to earth to SAVE humanity.

God is not on some bloodlust trip, hes not out to " Get Humanity", he Loves sinful humanity.

And he has already saved us.

But there are other cream colored forces that look like lambs, which really seek to condemn the world. And thats what I view as sad. They change the glory of God into something that looks very ugly, a sea of suffering humans.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

And again, this invalidates the rest of the New Testament. Paul. Peter, James, Jude, etc. wasted paper telling the churches how to behave, how to identify error, and how to live according to the Spirit. The Roman jailer aske dthe question of Paul "what must I do to be saved?". Your answer is "nothing. You can continue in your pagan worship and unbelief. God already saved you." But we see the REAL answer that Paul gave "You MUST believe." THAT is reality. You either believe or you don't. Only one inherits life with Christ.

[mickiel]

And again, this invalidates the rest of the New Testament. Paul. Peter, James, Jude, etc. wasted paper telling the churches how to behave, how to identify error, and how to live according to the Spirit. The Roman jailer aske dthe question of Paul "what must I do to be saved?". Your answer is "nothing. You can continue in your pagan worship and unbelief. God already saved you." But we see the REAL answer that Paul gave "You MUST believe." THAT is reality. You either believe or you don't. Only one inherits life with Christ.



Well again I disagree, the New Testament papers were letters to people God then was dealing with, written for them, not the world of sinners, which is what you would like to convey to this world for them to mean. The Letters, or epistles, were just as useless to sinners not called to God then as they are now. The Power of God must first be manifested, then revealed, and that is why Judgement falls first on those who it is revealed to, not to the world of sinners it has not been revealed to. But you look to judge the sinners with Gods word now, as if that is your right.

But you see, I know better, I already know that you don't know what your doing. I already know that you are prejudging this world, using the bible as the litmus test for your judging. There is absolutely nothing any human can " Do", to force God to place them into his revelation and open the bible to them.

And there is nothing you can do to save anyone. You or anyother Christian.

Because if salvation was based on how many people Christians can save, we all would be lost.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

:sigh: I guess you won't address scripture this time either...

[mickiel]

:sigh: I guess you won't address scripture this time either...



You suggest that I do not address scripture, I disagree with your suggestion, as I do with your belief. Nothing personal against you or your characther, but I use both posting with or without Scriptures, and hold to no ones guidelines as to how or when I should do differently.

Anyhow, I do not post scriptures to convince, only to witness to what I believe. The new testement being written exclusively for the church, SHOULD be standard basic knowledge, I am surprised at your giving the notion that this is incorrect.

But I can give you a short bible study on it later if you wish.

Peace.

[RCNicholas]

[QUOTE=mickiel;2039493]No, I simply see election for what it means, first the firstfruits, then everyonelse. You simply don't see everyonelse, only the firstfruits.Quite simply you're mistaken. Yes, everyone will be resurrected. That doesn't mean everyone will be raised to a resurrection of life. Some will be raised to a resurrection of condemnation, as Jesus plainly taught:
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29

And again, you didn't respond to my question. According to your view, ultimately, everyone is elect. Thus, election doesn't really mean anything. God didn't choose or elect anyone; everyone is included and is ultimately saved.

[RCNicholas]

Well again I disagree, the New Testament papers were letters to people God then was dealing with, written for them, not the world of sinners, which is what you would like to convey to this world for them to mean. The Letters, or epistles, were just as useless to sinners not called to God then as they are now. The Power of God must first be manifested, then revealed, and that is why Judgement falls first on those who it is revealed to, not to the world of sinners it has not been revealed to. But you look to judge the sinners with Gods word now, as if that is your right.Not at all. Scripture teaches that all men have been given some degree of revelation, and no man is without excuse. I do agree that more qill be required of whom more has been given, but that doesn't mean that other men who have been given less have an excuse.

But you see, I know better, I already know that you don't know what your doing. I already know that you are prejudging this world, using the bible as the litmus test for your judging. There is absolutely nothing any human can " Do", to force God to place them into his revelation and open the bible to them.I can't speak for him, but I am not "pre-judging" anyone. I'm just pointing out the Biblically obvious fact that there is such a thing as hell, there is such a thing as a lake of fire, and some people are going to go there.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE]Quite simply you're mistaken. Yes, everyone will be resurrected. That doesn't mean everyone will be raised to a resurrection of life. Some will be raised to a resurrection of condemnation, as Jesus plainly taught:
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29

And again, you didn't respond to my question. According to your view, ultimately, everyone is elect. Thus, election doesn't really mean anything. God didn't choose or elect anyone; everyone is included and is ultimately saved.



Well I disagree with whatever bible you are using, its translation is off, thus that affects your understanding of it. John 5:28-29, the time is comming that ALL shall hear his voice, ( again, a universal statement, a time is comming that everyone will " Hear Jesus", even within your " Death sentences verses", I see Life for humanity).

Vs. 29, " And come forth; those who did good deeds to a ressurection of Life, those who committed the evil deeds to a ressurection of JUDGEMENT! Judgement, not condemnation as you are desiring it to mean. You think the Judgement is hell condemnation, I believe the Judgement is what John 3:19 CLEARLY states the Judgement to be, that LIGHT will come into thier lives.

Concerning election, no it really does not mean anything. All it means is the order of God, some are elected before others, and they are called the firstfruits. Are they more special than those not yet elected, NO, they are not. In fact, all though I willnot take the time to go into what being a firstfruit means, the firstfruits are called to SERVE all of humanity in Gods Kingdom. There are other things involved here that I won't go into, but remember this, the First shall be LAST, and the LAST shall be first. So all those concited selfish, full of pride people who view themselves as firstfruits, only to step on the backs of sinful humanity, their pride will be broken.

Election is meaningless, the calling of God is just a matter of time. It will totally eclipes all of humanity eventually. BUT, if it is a matter of PRIDE, well then yes, election is everything to that kind of individual. They will make an announcement to all the world that they ARE KINGS NOW! And that is yet another reason the gospel has been perverted, because it is being taught by "Kings before their Time", and this awful pride has created an environment of " Bloodlust for Hell", people are feeding on it in a frenzy.

Peace.

[RCNicholas]

Well I disagree with whatever bible you are using, its translation is off, thus that affects your understanding of it. John 5:28-29, the time is comming that ALL shall hear his voice, ( again, a universal statement, a time is comming that everyone will " Hear Jesus", even within your " Death sentences verses", I see Life for humanity).

Vs. 29, " And come forth; those who did good deeds to a ressurection of Life, those who committed the evil deeds to a ressurection of JUDGEMENT! Judgement, not condemnation as you are desiring it to mean. Whether you translate it "condemnation" or "judgment," it's clearly negative in the context (unless you think people are going to be rewarded for "evil deeds"?). In judgment, there are both sheep and goats (cf. Matthew 25) and they do not inherit the same destiny. Those who do evil inherit "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels," (25:41) "eternal punishment." (25:46)



You think the Judgement is hell condemnation, I believe the Judgement is what John 3:19 CLEARLY states the Judgement to be, that LIGHT will come into thier lives.Look at the entire verse in context:

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

The judgment is not merely that light came into the world, but that people loved darkness instead of the light, and their works were evil....the whole point is that such people reject the light. What did we just learn happens to those whose works are evil? They inherit everlasting fire and punishment.


Concerning election, no it really does not mean anything...Election is meaningless It's unfortunate that you think God's plan is meaningless. I'm just letting you know what the Bible says and what the Church has always taught.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=RCNicholas;2042289]Whether you translate it "condemnation" or "judgment," it's clearly negative in the context (unless you think people are going to be rewarded for "evil deeds"?). In judgment, there are both sheep and goats (cf. Matthew 25) and they do not inherit the same destiny. Those who do evil inherit "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels," (25:41) "eternal punishment." (25:46) Quote


You christians, all you see is hell and damnation in Gods word. In Judgement, there are both sheep and goats. Sheep in scripture always represents Gods people, goats always represents satan or demonic angels. The goats are not humans. The verse PLAINLY states that the eternal fire was prepared FOR the Devil and HIS Angels, you christians just WANT to add sinners to that list, you are desiring to ADD them to that scripture, when it does not say that.

Anyhow, you get your Joy from such beliefs,

far be it from me to try and take away what makes you happy.

Peace.

[Bernie]

In another forum I participate on there are a couple of Episcopalian universalists, who seem to believe that all people will eventually be saved. Is this a true or Biblical position? Please give evidence for your opinion. Hopefully it will spark some interesting discussion.
I believe the salvation of all by Christ Jesus is both true and a "Biblical" position, though this phrase can have very narrow and specific meaning according to who employs it and how, including you and I.

The organized church can't see the salvaiton of all....or more accurately, only catches glimpses of it (and rejects it for the illogical doctrine of eternal hell; such is the power of orthodoxy), as evidenced in part by threads like this. The church doesn't usually see the truth (or the 'big picture') of the salvation of all because salvation is a dualism and the church focuses on 'singulars' or particulars and applies this type of thinking to its hermenutics.

Here's my understanding:

A. The salvation that can be gained and lost is fitted to time and space, and is for a limited number of people, the ecclesia. This is salvation's temporal aspect, receiving one's righteousness by the judicial imputation of Jesus' actual righteousnesss in following His call to participate with Him in the forging of faith (sanctification).

B. The salvation expressed in God's eternal decrees, which is immutable and can't be lost, is according to His will is sovereign. In eternity, all are (or, looking at it from this side of the sky, will be)) saved, as re the number Jesus stated He will draw to Himself (Jn 12:32). This is salvation's eternal aspect.

The organized church imposes A on B as identical, when both are different aspects of a
whole. The church is similarly divided; Arminians focus their doctrines on A, Calvinists on B. Rightly understood, the joining of these two sticks (of differing doctrine) into one (figuratively speaking, as re Ezek 37) will be revealed to have been only two aspects of a whole in the end, and this "whole" encompasses the salvation of all by Jesus' sacrifice.

Paul, in his NT writings, clearly saw and alluded to this duality in salvation, but the modern church tends to dismiss his position and forces an eternal hell on all he teaches. BTW, I've come to think the Catholic church is on the right track with its notion of Purgatory, but misrepresent imho its overall scope. As a former Catholic, I don't think this was ever actually an official doctrine, but more a popular belief or likelihood in the eyes of some Catholic theologians. Practicing Catholics more knowledgeable about church doctrine may prove me wrong on this point, though.... My two cents worth.

[god rules]

Well I certainly disagree with this. It is an incredible teaching, to teach that God does not use his power to know all things before hand, simply incredible to state that. What then is predestination? Its God using his power to not only know things before hand, but influence those things way , way before they even occur. God does not " Choose" to know things before hand, he DOES know ALL things before hand, its not a choice of his, its how HE IS! This teaching is just another effort by people to limit God.

The very reason God is Omnipresent, is BECAUSE he knows all things before hand. God has ALREADY PERSONALLY experienced everything that humanity has not. He has already been into our future, because HE IS our future. He is the beginning and the ending, simply because he created all of it, willed ALL of it, fashioned all of it , been there done that.

You cannot limit God. Your doctrines and beliefs have sought to do it, but it is already done, sealed and no human belief can do anything about this. Our destiny is sealed BECAUSE God has beforehand sealed it.

Our Salvation is sealed, our future is sealed, and our eternal life is sealed.

And I , for one, am very happy of that. I don't have to worry about my destiny or anyonelses, we are safe and secure because God is using his power of predestination.

Peace.Once again you are continuing to take things out of context. You conveniently left out the example that this statement refers to in the original post, so if someone was to only see one and not the other, it would appear the way you manipulated it in your response.

[god rules]

To Mickiel:
this is the my statement you posted without the example:
Although God is all-powerful, He chooses to use His power in various ways. In the same way, God, although He has the ability to know all things and to even know all things beforehand, does not use this ability. Several passages in the Bible indicate that God, for reasons that He alone knows, chooses not to know certain things ahead of time. Then, when the appropriate time comes for Him to discover and act in the situation, then He does

here is the example:
After commanding Abraham to sacrifice his only son, the angel of the Lord stops Abraham from doing so. The reason He gives is, now God knows that Abraham fears Him and is not willing to withhold anything, including his son from Him.

GEN 22:10 And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
GEN 22:11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!"And he said, "Here I am."
GEN 22:12 And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

In other words, I am saying that yes, God knows all that He needs to know in order to allow men and women to make free choices as to how they will react to Him. Then, based on their choices and His discovery of them He is able to make whatever decisions are necessary for the accomplishment of His purpose in the world.

[mickiel]

To Mickiel:

In other words, I am saying that yes, God knows all that He needs to know in order to allow men and women to make free choices as to how they will react to Him. Then, based on their choices and His discovery of them He is able to make whatever decisions are necessary for the accomplishment of His purpose in the world.



God does NOTHING based on on anyone choices. You christians believe that because you really do not know God. God does not allow people to make choices, he IS the only choice, there are no other choices.

You christians kill me with this stuff.

Let me just use your thinking for a weird moment, if you do not mind. God knows everything, but he still NEEDS to GIVE people a choice. Okay, this is the choice, you submit to him, or you suffer forever. What , in the name of sane reason, kind of choice is that. Thats a christian created choice, thats how christians have interpited the power of God, God HAS TO discover THEIR choices, then its based on them what he does.

Just a weird interpitation of a God who holds absolute unchallenged power and authority.

There is no choice with God.

Peace.

[Xmansmommy]

Sure, if you give me a day or two. :smile:

Er....so it's been a week or two, oopsie! :blush: Actually life's been quite hectic and I'm hoping to sift through some of the passages I have later tonight and share them. I truly am sorry for the delay. Thanks for your understanding, RC. :thumb:

[RCNicholas]

[QUOTE=mickiel;2042301]You christians, all you see is hell and damnation in Gods word. In Judgement, there are both sheep and goats. Sheep in scripture always represents Gods people, goats always represents satan or demonic angels. The goats are not humans. The verse PLAINLY states that the eternal fire was prepared FOR the Devil and HIS Angels, you christians just WANT to add sinners to that list, you are desiring to ADD them to that scripture, when it does not say that.Not at all...I include them because Scripture includes them. All those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and his angels. See Revelation 20:15, cf. verse 10

[mickiel]

[QUOTE]Not at all...I include them because Scripture includes them. All those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and his angels. See Revelation 20:15, cf. verse 10




I totally disagree with what you see and desire. If I may explain what I see in Revelations 20:14-15, Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire, neither of which are human, or are even live beings. This is called the second death, so the second death is merely the death of the first death, no humans are involved in this.

Now verse 15, " If anyones name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire." It does not state that humans were thrown in, it merely suggest that if their name was not found in the Book of Life, only then would they be thrown in. Which just as conversely means that if the name is there, if it is found, then they are not thrown in.

And that is my desire, my expressed belief, that God will place everyones name in the Book, that he willnot leave anyone out.

Peace.

[RCNicholas]

I totally disagree with what you see and desire. If I may explain what I see in Revelations 20:14-15, Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire, neither of which are human, or are even live beings. This is called the second death, so the second death is merely the death of the first death, no humans are involved in this.

Now verse 15, " If anyones name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire." It does not state that humans were thrown in, it merely suggest that if their name was not found in the Book of Life, only then would they be thrown in. Which just as conversely means that if the name is there, if it is found, then they are not thrown in.It would be pointless to mention it if it weren't realistic. Your wishful thinking that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life is no where supported in Scripture. The verses immediately preceeding that state that these individuals (all the dead, great and small....obviously human beings) are judged by their works....just like in Matthew 25 with the sheep and goats, where the two different groups go to two different places based on their works. AND just like in Romans 2, where, again, humans are placed into two different categories based on how they've lived their lives, and receive two different fates.

And that is my desire, my expressed belief, that God will place everyones name in the Book, that he willnot leave anyone out.It's God's desirous will, too. It's not His determinitive will. It's not Biblically realistic or honest.

[mickiel]

It's God's desirous will, too. It's not His determinitive will. It's not Biblically realistic or honest.


God does not have several Wills, he has only one will.

And you still think Judgement is greater than mercy. You think Judgement will end Gods grace toward sinners, so you preach a gospel of judgement, not really understanding what Gods judgement is. Your counting mens sins against them. You see so much sin, that you NEED to see judgement and punishment for it.

So christians look on the many sins of the people, and approach any scripture that seems to offer a way to roast the sinnners, and you grab these scriptures as if they are a delicous barbeque rib dinner, and you feast on them. And you think this is how God is.

The Justification of God is a Universal Remedy, he is God of both the just and unjust. Romans 3:30;" Since indeed God, who will Justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through Faith, is one. Meaning that is his ONE Will. To save BOTH the believers, the just, and the unbelievers, or the unjust, or the uncircumcised. That is what this verse means.

God is not determined to destroy humans lives, but to save them, you Christians are just unbelievers, you do not believe Gods Grace is sufficent to save all of humanity.

Peace.

[god rules]

God does not have several Wills, he has only one will.

And you still think Judgement is greater than mercy. You think Judgement will end Gods grace toward sinners, so you preach a gospel of judgement, not really understanding what Gods judgement is. Your counting mens sins against them. You see so much sin, that you NEED to see judgement and punishment for it.

So christians look on the many sins of the people, and approach any scripture that seems to offer a way to roast the sinnners, and you grab these scriptures as if they are a delicous barbeque rib dinner, and you feast on them. And you think this is how God is.

The Justification of God is a Universal Remedy, he is God of both the just and unjust. Romans 3:30;" Since indeed God, who will Justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through Faith, is one. Meaning that is his ONE Will. To save BOTH the believers, the just, and the unbelievers, or the unjust, or the uncircumcised. That is what this verse means.

God is not determined to destroy humans lives, but to save them, you Christians are just unbelievers, you do not believe Gods Grace is sufficent to save all of humanity.

Peace.
This is what i've been saying all along, respectfully you are continuing to take things out of context.
You say Romans 3:30 saves believers and unbelievers through faith, once again you are being misguided my friend.
Let's look at what it's really talking about:

Romans 3 (King James Version)

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This verse refers to jews and gentiles not believers and unbelievers. Looking at verse 29 shows this.

[mickiel]

This is what i've been saying all along, respectfully you are continuing to take things out of context.
You say Romans 3:30 saves believers and unbelievers through faith, once again you are being misguided my friend.
Let's look at what it's really talking about:

Romans 3 (King James Version)

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This verse refers to jews and gentiles not believers and unbelievers. Looking at verse 29 shows this.



Look, I cannot open your eyes to see what I see in these verses. This is not talking about physical circumcision, its talking about conversion, and the removal of the death penalty hanging over humanity. Its talking about the removal of unbelief, about God pulling away the spirit of unbelief, as a doctor would pull away the foreskin during circumcision.

Its a beautiful example of the Universal Salvation of God.

Peace.

[god rules]

Look, I cannot open your eyes to see what I see in these verses. This is not talking about physical circumcision, its talking about conversion, and the removal of the death penalty hanging over humanity. Its talking about the removal of unbelief, about God pulling away the spirit of unbelief, as a doctor would pull away the foreskin during circumcision.

Its a beautiful example of the Universal Salvation of God.

Peace.

A Challenge to Universalists


The Bible says to "test yourselves to see if you are in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). This is something that we must do. We must not carelessly assume that we know all that is true in the Bible. If universalism is true, fine. But if it is not, then the eternal consequence of damnation is of utter importance. Therefore, I issue this challenge to any who claim to be Universalists. Are you a Christian?
Of course, some of you will claim that you are and it is not my place to judge you. God is the Judge and He has revealed what His will is in the Bible about what false doctrines disqualify someone from being a Chrsitian. Therefore, it is from God's word that I challenge you. This challenge is not about the truth or error of universalism. It is about who Jesus is. Do you believe He is God, the creator of the universe, worthy of all worship and honor, equal to the person of the Father? If yes, good. If not, then you desperately need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith because to deny this means you are not a Christian.
Jesus said, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins," (John 8:24, NASB). The word "He" is not in the Greek. It literally says, "for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins." Later in this same chapter in verse 58, Jesus said, "before Abraham was, I AM." He was alluding to Exodus 3:14, where God told Moses that His name was "I am that I am."
Likewise, in 1 John 4:2-3 it says, "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." Very few people deny that Jesus lived; that is, that Jesus came in flesh. When John wrote this, he was not saying that you must believe that Jesus lived, but that Jesus was God in flesh.
The time of the writing of First John is important. The Gnostic heresy was prominent. It taught that God was too pure to have anything to do with sinful flesh. Therefore, Gnosticism taught that Jesus could not be God in flesh. It was in this context and against this error that John was writing. Jesus is God in flesh and to deny it is the Spirit of Antichrist.
Furthermore, the above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. In 1 John 4, the apostle knew what he was writing when he spoke of Jesus being in the flesh.
The Bible states that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 44:8). It states that Jesus created all that exists: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all thins, and in Him all things hold together," (Col. 1:16-17). Jesus is the creator.
In Isaiah 44:24, it says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone." This verse shows us that the Lord God created the universe - alone. If God created the universe alone and if Jesus created all things, then Jesus is God. Jesus is fully and completely God in flesh, second person of the Trinity. Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
And again, in John 5:22-23, Jesus said, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
Why is all this so important? Because it is Jesus who reveals the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22), who sends the Holy Spirit of truth (John 15:26), and who opens the mind to understand scripture (Luke 24:45). If you do not have the true Jesus, you will not know the true God. You will not know the true Holy Spirit. You will not have your mind opened to understand God's word. If you do not have the true Christ, then you simply are not a Christian.

So I challenge you, do you believe Jesus is God in flesh, worthy of the same honor has Father, the creator of all, the risen Lord? If you cannot say yes, then I suggest to you that you are not a Christian and need to re-examine your beliefs, regardless of whether or not universalism is true.
Furthermore, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh and just if universalism is false, then you would be in deep trouble come judgment day. Don't put your hope in universalism. Put it in Jesus who is God in flesh.

[RCNicholas]

God does not have several Wills, he has only one will.You're quite simply wrong here. There are two distinct Greek words denoting the desirous and the determinitive will of God. If you'd really like to press it I can show you from Scripture itself.

And you still think Judgement is greater than mercy. No, I don't. But I don't pretend that judgement is non-existant. Either Scripture is accurate when it says that God will judge all men by their deeds, or God is a liar. Which is it?

You think Judgement will end Gods grace toward sinners, so you preach a gospel of judgement, not really understanding what Gods judgement is. Your counting mens sins against them. You see so much sin, that you NEED to see judgement and punishment for it.No, God needs to see punishment for sins. It's part of the fact that He is just. If He didn't punish sin, He wouldn't be just. God is not soft on sin.

So christians look on the many sins of the people, and approach any scripture that seems to offer a way to roast the sinnners, and you grab these scriptures as if they are a delicous barbeque rib dinner, and you feast on them. And you think this is how God is.We think Scripture accurately reflects who God is, yes. Is that a problem for you??

The Justification of God is a Universal Remedy, he is God of both the just and unjust. Romans 3:30;" Since indeed God, who will Justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through Faith.So if God justifies by faith, then those who don't have faith...aren't justified! It's baffling that you can't see it.

Meaning that is his ONE Will. God's will isn't even discussed in this verse. Please stop adding to Scripture, you've done it enough already.

To save BOTH the believers, the just, and the unbelievers, or the unjust, or the uncircumcised. That is what this verse means.LOL...if you weren't aware, Gentiles weren't circumcised, and Jews were. The whole point of the passage is that God saves both Jews and Gentiles...not that He saves believers and non-believers. (see verse 29) That's your odd interpretation, it's not in the text.

God is not determined to destroy humans lives, but to save them, you Christians are just unbelievers, you do not believe Gods Grace is sufficent to save all of humanity.
On the contrary, I do believe that God's Grace is SUFFICIENT to save all of humanity. The fact that it is SUFFICIENT to save all humanity does not mean that it WILL save all humanity. Don't confuse the two concepts.

[mickiel]

A time was prophicised to come when men will call the truth lies, and call lies the truth.

The whole world has been deceived and all of humanity has been entrapped within sin. The whole world needs to be saved, but we have groups of believers in God who argue that not everyone will be saved. And get irritated in their strict defense of that arguement.

These are signs of the times. The whole head of religion is sick, and its heart faint. From the sole of its roots, their is no soundness in their arguements.

I grow tired of arguing for the Salvation of sinners.

I will no longer contribute to this post.

Peace.

[god rules]

A time was prophicised to come when men will call the truth lies, and call lies the truth.

The whole world has been deceived and all of humanity has been entrapped within sin. The whole world needs to be saved, but we have groups of believers in God who argue that not everyone will be saved. And get irritated in their strict defense of that arguement.

These are signs of the times. The whole head of religion is sick, and its heart faint. From the sole of its roots, their is no soundness in their arguements.

I grow tired of arguing for the Salvation of sinners.

I will no longer contribute to this post.

Peace.

The Danger of Universalism Illustrated

Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved and that no one goes to the fiery-hell to suffer for their sins. It means that everyone is saved, whether or not they have accepted or openly rejected Jesus' atonement. Of course, this goes against Heb. 10:26-27 which says,

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries" (NASB).

There is a danger in the Universalist position. It can weaken the need for someone to receive Jesus as Savior. To prove the point I provide this "exaggerated" illustration. But, the contrived universalist sermon below contains many quotes said by universalists to me. I've just blended them in:

There is this horrible, hateful man who abused all sorts of people in countless ways. He stole from them, was foul mouthed, a habitual adulterer, and he openly mocked and blasphemed God. He repeatedly sought to destroy the Christian Church and did everything in his power to prevent the gospel from being preached. He was a wretched and evil man.
This man died and, out of social obligation, all this relatives were at his funeral. There were lots of impressionable children, sweet little old ladies, and many acquaintances from work who had been appalled at the atheists horrible lifestyle yet were there nevertheless. However, some of the people there were thinking of sin, salvation, God, judgment, and what death brings. This often happens at funerals.
A universalist pastor was giving the message.
"We know that this man was a wretched soul who did whatever he could to oppose God and blaspheme Christ. He habitually stole, lied, cheated, coveted, swore, drank, caroused, and injured. We know that he lived his life in wanton sin and rebellion and that many people feared and hated him.
"But, you know what? He's going to heaven. And do you know why? Because God is too good and loving to let even this wretched, evil soul go to an imaginary place like hell.
"I know. He hated God and rejected Jesus. He even cursed the cross and did everything he could to oppose Christianity. But, it doesn't matter because, ultimately, you will see him again. Only, he won't be mean and evil. He will be kind and gentle. Jesus will change him. Jesus loves him. Jesus loves him more than we can imagine. He also loves you more than you can possibly know. There is no need to fear Him at all.
"Some may preach that there is a hell, a place of fiery, eternal torment. But I tell you that it is a lie. It is a tool of Tormentists who cannot accept the love of God and how often enjoy the thought of people rotting in that awful place.
"The Bible says that Jesus is the Savior of all men. And that means even this awful, God hating, wretch of a man that has now gone on to meet his maker.
"I preach a message of peace, of reconciliation, of joy, and of God's redeeming power.
"I preach the truth."
After the service, two of the impressionable young kids are talking.
"I liked the sermon the universalist gave. Heck, I was worried about hell. But now I don't have to be worried about it. Now I know I'm going to heaven no matter what. I know I'm not that great a person, but if that horrible man in the coffin is going to heaven, then I am sure I will too. After all, I'm not as bad as he is."
His friend answers, "Yep, I don't have to give up my drugs, sleeping with my girlfriend, or stealing CD's from the music store. Life is great!"
"Well, I don't think it means we can go sin, though."
"I know. I was just kidding. But you are right. No worries. No problem."
The two walk off enjoying the new found freedom found in the love of God, but they now don't need to trust Jesus as their savior. They have no need to appeal to Jesus to save them, because there isn't anything to save them from. They walk away unredeemed.
And let's not forget about the co-worker who has been thinking of going to church. He has been committing adultery and he has been fearing the judgment of God. He thinks to himself....
"Whew! Am I glad to hear that message. That was great! I don't have to worry about anything. Man what a relief. No hell! I'm going to heaven! Man Oh Man! this is so cool.... Guess I don't have to go to church tomorrow and I can forget about reading what the Bible says about Jesus and sin.... no need. Okay, maybe I should stop the adultery. But, that sure was a good message from that universalist. I feel so much better about God's love. I feel so much better knowing there is no hell."
He walks away not having confessed his sins to Christ (1 John 1:9), not having been cleansed, not having received Christ (John 1:12), not having been justified by faith (Rom. 5:1).
....... an eon later..... heaven.....judgment seat.... God is there.... and if the universalist is wrong....
Two boys and a coworker are in hell. They never did trust in Jesus as their savior. They never did confess their sinfulness and ask Jesus to forgive them. But, at least they felt good while on earth and they didn't have to listen to those people who preached hell-fire.

Why is it that Jesus warned us to not go to the "fiery place" if it isn't real? Why did He speak more about hell than heaven? Why did He tell us to turn from sin and be SAVED! Saved from what? Saved from Damnation!
Universalism is a dangerous teaching. It weakens the need for a savior and that is a great risk to take for such a dubious teaching.

[RCNicholas]

A time was prophicised to come when men will call the truth lies, and call lies the truth.I'd say universalism fits that description quite nicely.

The whole world has been deceived and all of humanity has been entrapped within sin. You're right. The modern viewpoint that all roads lead to God and that choosing to follow Jesus is just one of many ways to be saved, is a nauseating soteriology that will hopefully soon be snuffed out. It has deceived enough people already.

The whole world needs to be saved, but we have groups of believers in God who argue that not everyone will be saved. And get irritated in their strict defense of that arguement.Again, you're confusing concepts...you're assuming that since a given person NEEDS to be saved that they WILL be saved. This does not follow. For one claiming that certain arguments are unsound, you certainly seem hypocritical.



I grow tired of arguing for the Salvation of sinners.Me too. I also grow tired of arguing that Jesus is the Way; rejecting Him has consequences:

"But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:33

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

[Aidios]

There is no need for the universalist to argue that Jesus is not the way. There is indeed a dichotomy between saved and lost in Scripture, and there are certainly terrible consequences threatened for those who don't repent in this life (and for unfruitful believers too, for that matter). The lake of fire is real, and the threatenings associated with it would indicate endless punishment, if they were all the Bible said on the subject. However, there are promises made elsewhere (most notably Colossians 1:15-20, but also Philippians 2:9-11 and Romans 5:18-19, among others) that indicate the salvation of all. I believe the hell texts are more easily interpreted as teaching limited punishment than the other texts are interpreted as teaching a limited restoration.

I don't expect to convince anyone, of course; I just want to point out the reasons I have for accepting universalism.