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Joe Meert is offline
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  December 27th 2003 , 10:54 AM
 
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  December 27th 2003 , 10:59 AM
 
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Today @ 01:22 PM post located here
Vorkosigan:


rmwilliams & Burgy

If you guys want to see why I think Barr is so low-level, take a look at serious writing on the mind. David Chalmers has an extensive list of 1284 online papers by philosophers and cognitive scientists at the following address:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/online.html

You might spend some time exploring the materialism/dualism debates. Just read Chalmers' discussion of certain issues here and you'll see why Barr irritates rather than educates. You might also explore something that's the complete antithesis of Chalmers, like The Adapted Mind or work on teleological thinking in humans, like an excellent review article in Corballis and Lea's The Descent of Mind that is very useful. Or crack open a cognitive science textbook. You'll probably also want to do some reading in Human Behavioral Ecology and some reading on tool use and evolution. In other words, do what Barr didn't do: read on the debates and learn what the problems and issues are.

Vorkosigan

d. chalmers and j. pollock are two very interesting profs in the philosophy department at the uofa. i had several classes with dr. pollock but unfortunately dr. chalmers doesn't teach philosophy of the mind very often. but the class i had did use his _consciousness of the mind_ and the readings in _philosophy of the mind_ as texts. i would hope after pursuing this formal education my self study would have supplied me with the mental tools to evaluate the topic. thanks for the reference to dr. chalmers website, i have been there many times and really appreciate the depth of it, glad to see others recommend it.

additionally, thanks for the reference to _adapted mind_ by barkow. i am working on a reading list for the mind and human consciousness and it is there now. i hope to make that my next study topic after i reach some personal satisfaction on the creation-evolution-design debate.

 
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  December 27th 2003 , 08:33 PM
 
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additionally, thanks for the reference to _adapted mind_ by barkow. i am working on a reading list for the mind and human consciousness and it is there now. i hope to make that my next study topic after i reach some personal satisfaction on the creation-evolution-design debate.
My bad. I was referring to The Adapted Mind by Tooby and Cosmides.

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  December 27th 2003 , 10:20 PM
 
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Today @ 12:33 AM post located here
Vorkosigan:




My bad. I was referring to The Adapted Mind by Tooby and Cosmides.

Vorkosigan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
The Adapted Mind: Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture
by Jerome H. Barkow (Editor), Leda Cosmides (Editor), John Tooby (Editor)

same book. thanks. missing from university library. still looking for an inexpensive copy *grin*

 
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  December 27th 2003 , 11:40 PM
 
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I, also. And how many times have I read it and never noticed Barkow was an editor? <sigh>

 
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Old
  December 31st 2003 , 02:46 PM
 
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John Polkinghorne is an author I enjoy reading. Here are notes I made earlier this year on his REASON AND REALITY.

Burgy

REASON AND REALITY, The Relationship Between Science and Theology by John Polkinghorne. London, England: WBC Print Ltd, Bridgend, 1991. 119 pages, index, bibliography, notes. Paperback; L6.95. ISBN 0-281-04487-2.
Notes, February 2003, by John Burgeson. Much of these notes are partial quotations, often abridged and/or paraphrased.

Begin with "Go from the bottom upwards, not from the top downwards." Luther

Pg 1. Neither science nor theology can be pursued w/o a measure of intellectual daring, for neither is based on incontrovertible grounds of knowledge. Both can claim "critical realism." Each demands commitment to a corrigible point of view as necessary. Both must speak of entities not directly observable, therefore both must make use of models and metaphor.

JP distinguishes models from theories. Models are heuristic devices; theories are candidates for the verisimilitudinous description of what is actually the case. Therefore a variety of (possibly contradictory) models is tolerable - a theory demands that it be unique.

Pg 2. Theology is unlikely to achieve more than a collection of models, each usable with discretion.

Math is the language of science - symbol that of theology.

Biology is more than physics writ large.

Taking science seriously should not lead us to believe that the world is "nothing but" a collection of elementary particles.

Pg 3. Everyday reasonableness is seen not to be the measure of all things; the world has proved strange beyond our powers of anticipation.

Pg 4. Science and theology have this in common, that both are investigations of what is, the search for increasing verisimilitude in our understanding of reality.

Pg 5. The underdetermination of theory by experiment ... some say science is no more than an instrumental success, effective in getting things done, but not to be taken with ontological seriousness. JP rejects this view.

Pg 21. The word "model" is used to mean a heuristic device by which one tries to gain some insight w/o believing that the model is either totally accurate or fully adequate.

Pg 22. A model is a coarse grained representation, applicable only in a limited domain.

Pg 23. Models are to be taken seriously, but not literally. They are imaginative tools, not descriptions. They are aids to understanding, but not the end of the scientific search. A plurality of models can be tolerated.

Theories are, OTOH, candidates for the verisimilitudinous description of reality. We have no warrant for expecting absolute success. We should "believe" only one theory at a time. (Note - I have a problem with this statement).

Pg 25. Sometimes a theory turns back into a model. Maxwell's wave theory of light is an example.

Pg 28. Aquinas's Summa Theologicia may be the nearest theology has ever come to a theory. But the object of theology is One who transcends us - while in science we transcend the objects (the physical world). Therefore theology must employ many models but always fall short of a fully articulated theory.

JP notes that Aquinas had a spiritual experience near the end of his life here - no commentary however.

Page 35. Chaos theory. See separate CHAOS.DOC.

Pg 43. The denial of human freedom is incoherent, because it destroys rationality.

Complex dynamical systems. Consider gas molecules as tiny (classical) billiard balls. In .0000000001 seconds, a typical molecule experiences 50 collisions. Postulate two universes, one with an extra electron placed at the most remote distance in the universe away. The two universes will differ considerably in a very short time, just due to the extra gravitational attraction of that single electron. JP does not elaborate enough on just how large the difference would be in some finite time; I wish he had done this.

Pg 45. It is by no means clear that information input (changes to the physical world by some intelligent agent) originates solely from animals and humans. It is conceivable that God might also interact with it. Perhaps he influences his creation in a non-energetic way.

Pg 46. Panentheism is an unsatisfactory answer, in JP's opinion. If there is to be any "free" action, either human or divine, there needs to be gaps in physical processes. We are "people of the gaps." JP denies that this is in any way connected to the old GOTG arguments, which look for the divine within patches of current ignorance.

Pg 47. JP also described Whitehead's god as one more to be pitied than to be worshipped. He finds Whitehead's "strings of events" to be unpersuasive. He specifically finds the panpsychism involved in Whitehead's "prehension" to be unconvincing.

God's acts, says JP, will be veiled, discernable by faith but not demonstrable by experiment. Process thought sees him as a passive pleader (persuader), but he is able to act.

Pg 60. Detailed attention to the Bible plays only a subsidiary role in the S/T debates, for the ST debates ought not have much, if any, bearing on one's own religious stance. The S/T issues are second-hand, a fringe activity.

Pg 61. A conservative biblicism implies "look up the answer in the handbook. " But the search for verisimilitude in science does not proceed that way, and JP clearly thinks theological searches ought not be done that way either.

Pg 62. Because revelation is the encounter with a Person, and not the deliverance of a set of propositions, the Bible is not our divinely-guaranteed textbook, but a prime means by which we come to know God's dealings with humankind and particularly his self-utterance in Christ.

Pg 67. It is not possible to square the God of love with I Sam 15. There is contradiction within scripture. Those who treat it as a divinely-guaranteed textbook are trying to reconcile the irreconcilable. At best, their efforts are described as "crazy ingenuity."

Pg 75. What science can do for theology is to tell it what the physical world is actually like. This is a healthy corrective for theology, which all too often engages in ungrounded speculation and then begins to insist on that speculation being essential to it. What theology can do for science is to provide answers to those meta-questions which arise from science but are not themselves scientific in character. A thirst for understanding.

Pg 76-84 Two examples of the latter and three of the former:

1. Intelligibility. Why is the universe so rational? And why is anything at all?
2. The anthropic principle. Why are the physical constants of the universe what they are?

1. Origins.
2. The end.
3. Chance and Necessity

Pg 86. QM has brought about an extension of the limits of what is conceivable. Our imaginations have been enlarged.

Pg 88. An axiom of classical logic is

If A is at X or A is at Y
Then either A is at X or A is at Y.

But if A is an electron, then A may be in a state which is some superposition of (A at X) and (A at Y). IOW, (A is sometimes at X) is a valid possibility. This is a possibility undreamed of by Aristotle. There are suggestions how to solve the problem:

1. Determinism. Bohm's theories.
2. Many- worlds.
3. Stochastic jumps.
4. Emergence upward
5. Emergence downward

End

 
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Old
  December 31st 2003 , 07:47 PM
 
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2. The anthropic principle. Why are the physical constants of the universe what they are?
Yes, it is incredible how the ground was shaped to fit that puddle in my backyard.

 
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Old
  January 1st 2004 , 09:18 AM
 
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Vork,

The anthropic coincidences provide prima facie support for the theistic cosmology, which tells us that the universe was constructed with life as one of it's outcomes. In fact modern science has confirmed two basic elements of the theistic cosmology; the contingency of the universe being the other one.

So neither the universe or it's nature and laws, just are.

 
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Old
  January 3rd 2004 , 03:52 PM
 
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12-31-2003 @ 04:47 PM post located here
Vorkosigan:




Yes, it is incredible how the ground was shaped to fit that puddle in my backyard.

Yes, Polkinghorne points this out in his most recent article in CTNS's THEOLOGY and SCIENCE, April 2003. All the evidences known can be "fit" into both a naturalistic or theistic framework. John's argument in THEOLOGY and SCIENCE is not that one is disproved, but that a metaphysical view based on theism -- specifically a Trinitarian perspective, treats six specific issues better. It is an article well worth reading.

There are other alternatives, of course, to Polkinghorne's position, one of which is process theology as argued by David Ray Griffin. Here is a review I wrote, published last year, on his latest book. I found it to be fascinating, although at the end I could not accept his process theology position.

A review of RELIGION & SCIENTIFIC NATURALISM by David Ray Griffin

By John Burgeson, Denver, Colorado, September 15, 2001. 1587 words.

RELIGION AND SCIENTIFIC NATURALISM, OVERCOMING THE CONFLICTS, by David Ray Griffin. Albany, New York: State University of New York Press, 2000. 345 pages, index, notes, bibliography. Softcover; $25.95. ISBN 0-7914-4563-1.

David Ray Griffin, Professor of Philosophy of Religion and Theology at Claremont, a prolific writer on issues of science and religion, has written a watershed book, one which has received the Book Award for 2000 from the (UK-based) Scientific and Medical Network. This volume, one in the SUNY series in Constructive Postmodern Thought, argues a Whiteheadian based philosophy that religion does not require supernaturalism and science does not require materialism. Griffin describes himself as a panentheistic Christian, one who sees God as more than the universe and yet the universe as part of God. He sees God at work in the universe, but in a "persuasive" rather than in a "coercive" way.

One does not have to subscribe to panentheism to benefit from this work. It was the primary text in Dr. William Dean's Science and Religion Ph-D level course at the Iliff School of Theology in the spring of 2001. While a difficult read, demanding full attention and study, I found it to be well worth the considerable effort demanded during that course.

Both Whitehead, writing in 1925, and Griffin see a middle ground between materialism and supernaturalism. Griffin uses the term "theistic naturalism" for this worldview. While some may view that phrase as oxymoronic, a study of this book will show it has significant meaning. Griffin writes (Page xv):

"The central question of this book is simply whether there is anything essential to science that is in conflict with any beliefs essential to vital religion, especially theistic religion. My answer is No, but the dominant answer has been Yes... .”

Griffin defines two metaphysical terms, "naturalism(sam)" and "naturalism(ns). Naturalism(ns) is all science requires, he argues, and is fully compatible with theistic religion. He defines naturalism(ns) as being simply a rejection of supernatural interventions which interrupt causal relations, and naturalism(sam) as including naturalism(ns) plus sensationism, atheism, materialism, determinism, reductionism, no causation from mind to body, upward causation only, no transcendent source of religious experience, no variable divine influence, and no ultimate meaning to life (nihilism). The (sam) comes from the terms “sensationalism,” “atheism,” and “materialism.” He also observes that other writers call naturalism(sam) by the names reductionistic naturalism, materialistic naturalism and atheistic naturalism. I have been used to the term "metaphysical naturalism."

Arguing that Naturalism(sam) is the dominant scientific worldview, Griffin cites Russell, Monod, Skinner, Uttal, Wilson, Provine, Drees, Asimov, Lewontin, Crick, Searle, Weinberg, Dawkins and others as evidence of this. Seeking a religion/science harmony, he sees three things as necessary:

1. They must share a worldview.
2. Science must insist only on naturalism(ns), not also on naturalism(sam).
3. Religion must agree that it can live with naturalism(ns) and therefore without supernaturalism.

Griffin examines three alternatives (of the many that exist), which challenge one or more of these theses:

1. Theistic Science, as proposed by Plantinga and Johnson.
2. Scientific naturalism within a supernaturalistic framework, as proposed by Van Till and others.
3. Accommodating religion to naturalism(sam), as proposed by Drees.

The discussions on these, 38 pages in all, are very well done. One of the strengths of this book lies in the way Griffin can find merit in some, but not all, of these competing ideas. Advocates of any of these positions can benefit from his remarks.

Having argued that none of those alternatives succeed, Griffin turns to the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead, proposing a theistic naturalism that can bring harmony. Griffin argues that theism need not require supernaturalism to be genuine and "robust." He first discusses Deweyan naturalism, as proposed in 1944, rejecting it. He then discusses the views of James Pratt. In Pratt’s book, published in 1939, naturalism can recognize "the reality of teleological, purposeful causation." (Page 87). Pratt also held that teleology included both the living and non-living world, and that the mind and brain could, and did, interact.

Pratt, however, did not go far enough (Griffin asserts) and so this book takes up where Pratt left off. Arguing against the supernaturalistic version of theism. Griffin, like Whitehead, believes that the basic causal principles of the world are never interrupted. How, then, does Griffin find a "genuine robust religion?" Disdaining modern liberal religion, because it denies divine activity in the world, he asserts such activity for theistic naturalism, arguing that there are nine features to the "generic idea" of God:

1. a personal, purposive being
2. supreme in power
3. perfect in goodness
4. created the world
5. acts providentially in the world
6. experienced by human beings
7. the ultimate guarantee for the meaningfulness of human life
8. the ground of hope for the victory of good over evil
9. alone worthy of worship

Theistic naturalism retains all nine of these features, he says, by modifying the traditional understanding of #2, from coercive power to persuasive power. This, in turn, modifies the traditional meaning of #4, #5 and #8. He rejects Creation ex Nihilo, arguing that it is not biblical, and is the concept that leads to the problem of theodicy. He sees God as one of the causal influences on every event.

In chapter 6, Griffin addresses the mind-body problem in detail, asserting that it has been the central problem for modern philosophy. He says that we have some "hard common sense" (i.e. non-negotiable) beliefs about ourselves, which we presuppose in practice. Among these are:

1. We have conscious experience
2. We have at least partial free will
3. Our free will can act on the body, therefore
4. We have at least a degree of responsibility for our bodily actions

While there are those, such as Searle, Crick, and Skinner, who argue that science has proven false one or more of these ideas. Griffin effectively rebuts them. In a high point of his book, he argues that if one eliminates a belief in the reality, self-determination and causal efficacy of conscious experience, the belief still remains, because as much as one may deny these beliefs verbally, he will continue to assume them. If a speaker tells you that you should eliminate beliefs in these three things, he must necessarily assume that:

(1) you can understand what he is saying,
(2) you can freely choose, or reject, his advice, and
(3) you can freely choose, in the future, to tell others of it.

To deny this is irrational, it is a "performative self contradiction."

In chapter 7, Griffin argues that paranormal events are "real" and that this reality provides empirical support, beyond what Whitehead himself had provided, for the Whiteheadian concept of God. He does not argue that it is an essential part of that foundation, however. Readers of this section may want to compare the writings of William James in his 1902 book, THE VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, in particular lectures XVI and XVII.

In chapter 8, the chapter I enjoyed most, Griffin addresses "Darwinian Evolutionism," arguing that it is not an all-or-none affair, but a mixture of ideas. Darwinian Evolutionism has fourteen dimensions:

1. Microevolution
2. Macroevolution (all present species have come from previous species)
3. Naturalistic 4. Uniformitarianism

Griffin accepts these dimensions, but rejects the next ten:

5. No theistic guidance, either non-causal or "directing influence" 6. Positivism. All influences are, in principle, detectable through sensory perception
7. Predictive (in principle) Determinism. No teleology.
8. Macroevolution understood as microevolution happening long enough
9. Natural selection acting on mutations the sole cause
10. Gradualism. Tiny step by tiny step
11. Nominalism
12. Atheistic
13. Amoral
14. Nonprogressive

A significant argument for Darwinism is that we require a materialistic theory (because we are good methodological naturalists) to explain how we got here and Darwinism is not just the best such theory, it is the only such theory (garbage dumped on the earth millennia ago just moves the area of interest from the earth to another location). Therefore, if materialism is true, Darwinism must be true. Materialism being the scientist's presupposition, Darwinism is the only game that can be played.. Griffin observes that this argument can be turned against Darwinism. If materialism has proved inadequate for other issues, such as human consciousness, or for psi effects, or for certain religious experiences, then the obvious presumption ought to be that it is also inadequate for evolution.

God, says Griffin, not being external to the universe, is essentially the soul of the universe, and exists with the universe, with equal necessity, being coeternal. He identifies himself as a Christian, but points out that one implication of theistic naturalism that some will find problematic is that it provides no basis for arguing that Christianity is “The One True Religion.” Not considering this implication a drawback, Griffin, an advocate of religious pluralism, sees it to be a benefit. He argues that classical theism’s depiction of God is, itself, unbiblical.

There is an extensive bibliography, 16 pages, in excess of 300 citations. So many books! So little time! Griffin has written a later book, REENCHANTMENT WITHOUT SUPERNATURALISM: A PROCESS PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION (Cornell, 2001) in which he expands on many of the ideas developed so well here.

This book is highly recommended to those who study science/religion issues in depth, and to others interested in the philosophical issues of process theology. It is a “keeper” in my own library.

John W. Burgeson
http://www.burgy.50megs.com
Stephen Minister
First Presbyterian Church
Durango, Colorado
Completed September 15, 2001
Published in PERSPECTIVES, the quarterly journal of the American Scientific Association,
Volume 54, Number 3, September 2002

 
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Old
  January 4th 2004 , 02:51 AM
 
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1. Microevolution
2. Macroevolution (all present species have come from previous species)
3. Naturalistic
4. Uniformitarianism
5. No theistic guidance, either non-causal or "directing influence" 6. Positivism. All influences are, in principle, detectable through sensory perception
7. Predictive (in principle) Determinism. No teleology.
8. Macroevolution understood as microevolution happening long enough
9. Natural selection acting on mutations the sole cause
10. Gradualism. Tiny step by tiny step
11. Nominalism
12. Atheistic
13. Amoral
14. Nonprogressive
Good grief! 1&2 are the same thing, as he noted in #8. Darwinism is silent on 12, 13 is true of all scientific theories. And then he moves on to total nonsense:

A significant argument for Darwinism is that we require a materialistic theory (because we are good methodological
naturalists) to explain how we got here and Darwinism is not just
the best such theory, it is the only such theory (garbage dumped on the earth millennia ago just moves the area of interest from the earth to another location).
Basic errors are numerous. First, the theory is not "Darwinism" but the "Theory of Evolution." Second,is a whopping error: Evolution is not a theory of the origin of life, and thus, Evolution is not "the only such theory" but has no application in this area. Totally wrong. Burgy, I hope you didn't waste your money on this one.

Therefore, if materialism is true, Darwinism must be true.
Hogwash. The two have nothing to do with each other. Materialism could be right and Evolution wrong, or Evolution right and materialism wrong. One does not hang on the other. Is it a requirement for such writers not to have graduated from high school? Or do they take special Logic pills that obliterate their logical skills before the write on science and religion?

Materialism being the scientist's presupposition, Darwinism is the only game that can be played..
LOL. Earth to Griffin: scientists were materialists long before Darwin proposed evolution by natural selection, and remained materialists even when Darwin's idea went into eclipse in the latter half of the 19th century, and later, when it was swallowed up by the modern biological synthesis. Conclusion: Griffin needs to review some history before sitting down to write. <sigh>

Griffin observes that this argument can be turned against Darwinism. If materialism has proved inadequate for other issues, such as human consciousness, or for psi effects, or for certain religious experiences, then the obvious presumption ought to be that it is also inadequate for evolution.
LOL. Of course. If a thing is useless in some areas, it must be useless in all areas! With logic like that, why bother with facts?

Vorkosigan

 
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Old
  January 4th 2004 , 06:46 AM
 
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01-01-2004 @ 01:18 PM post located here
PlumpDJ:


Vork,

The anthropic coincidences provide prima facie support for the theistic cosmology, which tells us that the universe was constructed with life as one of it's outcomes.
Only if you confuse behavior with function, and function with purpose. Why shouldn't we say that the universe created to support gazillions of cubic lightyears of empty space ?

Of course, the claimed coincidences depend on three assumptions:
1) that we know the set of all "possible" universes.
2) that we know a natural probability measure on this set, and that it assigns a small probability to the subset of "life-friendly" universes *).
3) that there aren't other local universes with different physical mechanisms.

I wonder how anyone can rationally argue for any of those three assumptions.
In fact modern science has confirmed two basic elements of the theistic cosmology; the contingency of the universe being the other one.
How can science confirm that the universe could be "otherwise" ? In fact, from the PoV of science our universe is the only possible one. We have never observed any other.

Contingency is a term of speculative philosophy, but not of science.

*) If some "parameters" of the universe are continuous, a reparametrization can assign to the "life-friendly" subset any desired size.

Regards,
HRG.

 
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Old
  January 4th 2004 , 06:58 AM
 
In reply to this post by burgy
 
 
 
12-31-2003 @ 06:46 PM post located here
burgy:



Pg 88. An axiom of classical logic is

If A is at X or A is at Y
Then either A is at X or A is at Y.
This is not an axiom of classical logic, but a statement of classical physics about the "A is at X" - relation between a physical object A and a space point X, with the hidden and unspoken assumption that A can only be at one space point (at some point in time).

(If you replace "is at X" by "belongs to X", it becomes obvious that this is not a question of logic. A can both belong to the set of Republicans and to the set of females)

Quantum theory just states that this hidden assumption is false. An object can be at different places at the same time, for instance when physicists entangled two photons across the Danube to form a single object.

Morale: we should be careful about the boundary between logic and physics. Logics deals with the tautologously valid propositions, physics with those which happen to be valid in our universe.

Regards,
HRG.

 
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Old
  January 4th 2004 , 10:17 AM
 
In reply to this post by burgy
 
 
 
Vork,

The anthropic coincidences provide prima facie support for the theistic cosmology, which tells us that the universe was constructed with life as one of it's outcomes.
No, Plump, they don't. They contain multiple problems.

First, the Anthropic Coincidences are simply a case of reading your conclusion into your assumptions. In order to make the case for Anthropic Coincidences, first you have to assume that there is something important or special about Life, that Life was the goal of the Designer. But of course, this is unprovable. For all we know, the Designer was really interested in snowflakes or ball lightning (both of which exist in an even narrower range of conditions than life) or the patterns in the gas clouds on gas giants like Jupiter, and life is simply a by-product of the processes the Designer instituted to get what it really wanted. Thus, you first need to demonstrate, independently, that Life was important to the Designer.

Second, there is no life-containing universe that does not suffer from the Anthropic Coincidence problem. Any universe of whatever conditions, however finely or loosely tuned, that results in life, its inhabitants can point and say -- Look! Anthropic Coincidence!

Third, the Anthropic Coincidence understands the selection problem exactly backwards. Of course the universe appears fine-tuned for life. This is the inevitable outcome of selection processes that fine-tune life for the universe. This is because any entity in the universe that couldn't survive in those conditions either didn't arise or died when it did appear. Thus, all that is left is stuff that has been selected for by the conditions of the universe. It would be much more interesting if you could conclusively demonstrate that there exists some entity in the universe that persists despite being in total violation of natural law. In a law-governed universe, Anthropic Coincidences are the inevitable outcome of selection processes. Thus, the ID understanding of things is backward.

Fourth and finally, we know that the human perception of its own specialness is an outgrowth of the teleological thinking and expectations about other minds that social primates like humans must have in order to function both in the world and in their complex societies. In other words, the Anthropic Coincidences are not an artifact of the universe, but are in fact an artifact of the operating systems of your mind and the way it parses data from the reality around it. See the good review article in The Descent of Mind by Corballis and Lea (ed).

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Old
  January 4th 2004 , 10:21 AM
 
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Yes, Polkinghorne points this out in his most recent article in CTNS's THEOLOGY and SCIENCE, April 2003. All the evidences known can be &quot;fit&quot; into both a naturalistic or theistic framework.
LOL. Only if your understanding of everything, as I explained above, is all muddled up, and you ignore everything the cognitive sciences are discovering about the way the mind handles reality, and you also ignore everything biology has taught about selection, as well as give life a totally unfounded privileged position in your explanatory paradigm.

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Old
  January 5th 2004 , 06:19 AM
 
In reply to this post by burgy
 
 
 
Vork,

No, Plump, they don't. They contain multiple problems.

First, the Anthropic Coincidences are simply a case of reading your conclusion into your assumptions. In order to make the case for Anthropic Coincidences, first you have to assume that there is something important or special about Life, that Life was the goal of the Designer. But of course, this is unprovable. For all we know, the Designer was really interested in snowflakes or ball lightning (both of which exist in an even narrower range of conditions than life) or the patterns in the gas clouds on gas giants like Jupiter, and life is simply a by-product of the processes the Designer instituted to get what it really wanted. Thus, you first need to demonstrate, independently, that Life was important to the Designer.
The Theistic Cosmology has certain elements, one of which is a created universe with beings created to know it. Therefore *of course* life will have a 'higher order' role in the creation. If this is what the theistic cosmology says then the theistic cosmology gets support from the evidence we find in modern cosmology, astronomy and astro-biology, not to mention the big bang, which adds yet another stripe to the theistic cosmology. You'll note that all the major branches of theism (Christianity, Islam, Judism) do not fail to mention that life, sentient life, is an important element of the created order. If we find reason to think this, then we find support for that cosmology.

Second, there is no life-containing universe that does not suffer from the Anthropic Coincidence problem. Any universe of whatever conditions, however finely or loosely tuned, that results in life, its inhabitants can point and say -- Look! Anthropic Coincidence!
First of all, if you've ever read Hugh Ross (and I know how much atheists love him) he deals with this response in his writings. To carry this point you have to argue for life based on things we don't know about, based on exotic chemistries and so forth. In otherwords you argue from ignorance, which is fallacious.

Third, the Anthropic Coincidence understands the selection problem exactly backwards. Of course the universe appears fine-tuned for life. This is the inevitable outcome of selection processes that fine-tune life for the universe.
This is an assumption of yours, an assumption that the universe was not created with life as one of it's outcomes.
A non-telelogical assumption about reality is as much an assumption as a teleological one, especially when there is only two options on the table. So that's my first problem. Secondly, this is a good chance for you to put your non-telelogical theory to the test. Let's look to the data of modern cosmology, of astronony and astro-biology to see if it supports or detracts from your assumption that life and the universe is simply the inevitable outcome of non-teleological processes.

Let's take one single example which I think highlights and argues against the non-teleologist's position. It is accpeted that The universe must have certain values to even exist. We see that in the cosmological constant, the alteration of this value by 1 part in 10 to the power of 125 will result in it's untimely death. Dozens of these cosmic characteristics must be "exquisitely fine-tuned" (teleological or not) in tandem to make physical life possible. The degree of fine-tuning observed exceeds by many orders of magnitude the fine-tuning of which humans are capable yet somehow the inference of design is somehow unacceptable?

expectations about other minds that social primates like humans must have in order to function both in the world and in their complex societies. In other words, the Anthropic Coincidences are not an artifact of the universe, but are in fact an artifact of the operating systems of your mind and the way it parses data from the reality around it. See the good review article in The Descent of Mind by Corballis and Lea (ed).
The conclusion about the anthropic coincidences has nothing to do with how our minds operate any more then it does with our conclusion about the sun being yellow or Jesus being a real guy. It is an inductive argument, which stands or falls on it's own merits. Even if your point here is correct, If I make a sound or cogent inductive argument about anything (the anthropic coincidences included) that lends support to a theistic cosmology, you have to deal with that. Telling me how my mind operates does not address this.

 
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Old
  January 5th 2004 , 06:27 AM
 
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Vork,

To put it bluntly, Polinghome is a wuss. His apologetic is so wishy washy it's not funny. He's not a good apologist. At least the YECs have a clear cut position.

LOL. Only if your understanding of everything, as I explained above, is all muddled up, and you ignore everything the cognitive sciences are discovering about the way the mind handles reality, and you also ignore everything biology has taught about selection, as well as give life a totally unfounded privileged position in your explanatory paradigm.
You try to argue that life has no privaleged position, but this is a philosophical conclusion of yours and one that I think is contradicted by astronomical, cosmolgocail and even biological evidence? But of course any evidence contrary to your non-teleological assumption is just dismissed. I mean when we see teleology, we're just imposing our own mind set on the world, when we don't see design we're seeing reality as it is in itself. I love it!!


 
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