Originally posted by Moksha

I presume you take that understanding from Paul?
That may be his understanding but it's not mine nor many other ex-christians experience.

I am afraid I don't clearly understand your second comment here. Are youone of the "ex-christians?

I take my understanding from all of the New Testament together.

Originally posted by Jaecp

There are plenty of former christians, theological claims that we were never really christians accomplishes what Jeb?

Sorry I missed this when I first read your post. What ii accomplishes is clearing up a misconception on the part of ex Christians.

Believers, if you would like to discuss this I would be agreeable to following you to another thread for that purpose. As I said before my interest is to discuss this with so-called ex Christians. So far I have not had anything except the phony no-true-"scotsman" business.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

I am afraid I don't clearly understand your second comment here. Are youone of the "ex-christians?

I take my understanding from all of the New Testament together.

Insert obligatory discussion of Hebrews 6, here.

There is simply no way that one has been enlightened and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and tasted the heavenly gift, and not been a Christian. This entire section is about the Jewish Christians, who should be mature and well grounded in their faith, still struggling with the elementary principles of Christianity and whether the Old Covenant Law was to be followed.

And this portion is a warning to them: They have been enlightened, they have partaken of the Holy Spirit (to the 1C church, this was salvation), and tasted the heavenly gift.

If they fall away it is impossible for them to return. Not because it is impossible to fall away, but because Christ is not crucified again.

"Again" here means that there would need to be a second crucifixion. Which means that they embraced the first one.

Thus, it is obvious to conclude that:

1) The author of Hebrews is speaking of those who were saved, who
2) have fallen away, and
3) Cannot return.

And in context, this is a warning passage, which means the author is directing a very real warning to the Jews not to return to the Old Covenant and salvation by works.

Thus, there are ex-Christians.

Michael

Also to add, did these " former " christians repent and try to turn away from sin, in response to believing in Christ.
Or did they just say " I believe in the gospel " and keep on living their lives the same way as before.

What misconceptions?

This is, as has been said, nothing more than a No True Scotsman argument, and a rationalization for why you can ignore apostates.

Originally posted by JAYMZ

Also to add, did these " former " christians repent and try to turn away from sin, in response to believing in Christ.
Or did they just say " I believe in the gospel " and keep on living their lives the same way as before.

I know both kinds.

Jedidiah, you've called ex-christians "so-called" christians, and implied there is a specific definition for a true christian. Please give us that definition of the true christian, and the reason you think ex-christians are phoney.
Over the past few years I've viewed Tweb I've read that catholics, protestants, mormons, jehovah's witnesses, ect aren't true christians. Please pick one or more of any one of the 33,000 plus christian groups you think are true christians.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

Misses the mark. A Christian trusts the Gospel, not just believes it is true.

Feel free to add that to the list, and anything else necessary to pass your "correct verbal formulation" test.

Originally posted by SlapShot

Jedidiah, you've called ex-christians "so-called" christians, and implied there is a specific definition for a true christian. Please give us that definition of the true christian, and the reason you think ex-christians are phoney.

As a Christian, you never ever stop developing and learning -- because there are so many areas to learn -- and the two go hand in hand. But there's actually a point that you reach, a threshold, where you no longer have any doubt whatsoever, and you know you could never turn away regardless of what challenge is presented. This is not "forced willpower" to believe, but a genuine depth perception that is solely based on knowledge and experience.

My point is, anytime I hear an apostate on here argue their case against Christianity (and this is epitomized when I read or listen to arguments from apostates like Dan Barker), the Christian knowledge they display is really really basic stuff, typically erroneous in many cases, and they usually confuse their Christian experience with Christian knowledge. Maybe this is more a Christian problem than proving they were never actually Christian, but this tells me they never followed the basic principles of being a true Christian, that is, constantly pursuing truth through God's word -- in other words, taking their beliefs seriously and vigorously researching it in all areas of the subject -- history, theology, archeology, etc.

Originally posted by themuzicman

And in context, this is a warning passage, which means the author is directing a very real warning to the Jews not to return to the Old Covenant and salvation by works.

Thus, there are ex-Christians.

Michael

The author continues after his tirade against these folks you think are ex Crhistians by saying, "But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."

Thus, there are no ex-Christians

Originally posted by Serafina

I know both kinds.

I doubt it.

Originally posted by Seasanctuary

Feel free to add that to the list, and anything else necessary to pass your "correct verbal formulation" test.

The problem is there is no verbal formulation. Plus you are in effect saying that whatever I say, you know someone who meets the requirements. Why should I pay any attention to an argument like that?

Originally posted by Jedidiah

The problem is there is no verbal formulation. Plus you are in effect saying that whatever I say, you know someone who meets the requirements. Why should I pay any attention to an argument like that?

I suspect most of the Christians around here would not have identified the same problem you picked out. It's like when Gerry asked, "What is the core concept of God among Christians?"

I already had the feeling that no matter how I answered you would come up with some reason why anyone who was a real Christian would have worded it differently. But I answered it straight and honestly anyway. The picky response was a confirmation.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

I am afraid I don't clearly understand your second comment here. Are you one of the "ex-christians?

No I'm not one of the "ex-christians". I'm one of the ex-christians.

I take my understanding from all of the New Testament together.

I take mine from experience.

Geez. It's not a point of metaphysics, i's a point of self-identification. It's not a statment of theology, its a statement of practice. A person who is an ex-Christian no longer identifies as a Christian and no longer practices Christianity. Religion is complicated enough. Don't make it harder than it has to be.