Originally posted by Jedidiah

Misses the mark. A Christian trusts the Gospel, not just believes it is true.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a Christian. There are just so many conditions which are arbitrarily added and taken away that such a critter cannot exist. Like a square circle.

Originally posted by Seasanctuary

It is very relevant to this discussion. If there are people who think they are Christians -- but really aren't Christians -- and people who think they are Christians -- and really are -- then the questions arise of whether and how a supposed Christian can determine his status.

One way to go is to say no supposed Christian can determine his own status. Easy to deny the existence of former Christians at that point. Honestly reported feelings and doctrines of supposed former Christians become irrelevant.

The other way to go is to affirm that supposed Christians can examine themselves to determine their status. But if so, how exactly? It MUST be an open set of criteria which both false and true Christians can understand and reflect upon. Here's why:

True Christian ---reliable reflection---> affirmation
False Christian ---unreliable reflection---> affirmation or denial

So any supposed Christian who reflects on the criteria can draw no conclusion from an affirmative evaluation! If you want to claim true Christians can determine that they are true Christians, you will need to provide criteria which even false Christians (and accurately reporting "former Christians") can understand and realize excludes them.

I am really disappointed that this was not touched. This strikes at the heart of the matter for even those of us who sincerely believe now that we are Christians. If there is no criteria by which I can conclude I am truly a Christian, because I could easily be a false Christian and sincerly believe I am a true Christian, how is that introspection not going to totally wreck my faith in God's saving power in my life (if it's there to begin with)? OSAS may itself become the undoing of sincere Christians.

Originally posted by Sheepdog

I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a Christian.

So when are you changing your postbit?

Or better yet, if you want to be a Christian, when are you setting your affections on things above, rather than on things of the earth? Politics is most certainly a "thing on the earth," and I can't help but notice that when Christians turn to politics, they become politicians first, and Christianity becomes, at best, a distant second.

Originally posted by Sheepdog

I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a Christian. There are just so many conditions which are arbitrarily added and taken away that such a critter cannot exist. Like a square circle.

What is required besides trusting in Jesus Christ? That is what the Gospel is all about.

Originally posted by Jaecp

Reliability doesn't mean true HH ;0

Truth is tiny light inside us, a 'chip off the old block' if you get what I mean ? The Spirit of God (which you know I consider to be the Holy Spirit) deposits a tiny part of Himself inside every one us when we are born. Just enough light for us to be able to recognize Him in the world around us (that would include the things we all do, and say, and write, and sing etc. etc.) Sort of like a bread crumb trial which leads to the big loaf.
As you probably know I am not one of those types who says, it's all in the Bible. Something which has made me an enemy to most fundamentalists, and those who present the strictly orthodox position, but it is because I read a lot, and have found these 'bread crumbs' if you will, in many other writings and even in some fairy tales.

Reliability means to me that most of what is written amounts to a fairly good guess. By that of course I mean the gospel message. I love the way St. Paul puts it, 'it is a faithful saying, that Christ died for sinners.' In another place he refers to what I understand to be the sayings of the apostles as being an accurate record of the gospel. There is more, but this old shark is a little rusty and tired, so why not try out old Dr. Gibson after all he was my mentor.

Sincerely,
HH.

Originally posted by Silent Running

So when are you changing your postbit?

what are you, following me around now?

it was a strategic turn of phrase, i expected most everyone would have not taken it literally when considering the context.

Or better yet, if you want to be a Christian, when are you setting your affections on things above, rather than on things of the earth? Politics is most certainly a "thing on the earth," and I can't help but notice that when Christians turn to politics, they become politicians first, and Christianity becomes, at best, a distant second.

you really are following me around. i don't remember appointing you as a little brown shirt over what i do with my time on TWeb. your judgments mean nothing to me, and even if they did, they ignore the fact that TWeb is but a tiny sliver of my personal life.

i'm not answerable to you, and i don't appreciate you bastardizing a part of my religion to shame me into silence. begone, gnat!

Originally posted by Jedidiah

What is required besides trusting in Jesus Christ? That is what the Gospel is all about.

ok, good. for whatever it is worth, we are on the same page.

if a person trusted in Christ, then deserted the faith, then what?

did he never really trust in Christ in the first place? if so, how would you know that? how to you know you really trust Christ?

Jedidiah said:

This is an old topic, but I have not seen any really new topics, but reading the Victor Stenger thread got me going on it again. According to my understanding of the Bible there can not be former Christians. Those who make such a claim are fooling themselves.

If the person meets the criteria of a true christian, and then claims to be a non christian (converts to non-faith/islam/hinduism ect) is it your contention that this person is really a true christian still? (osos)

Originally posted by SlapShot

(osos)

I have heard of 'osas' but 'osos' is a new one to me. Would that be 'once saved one saves' ?

Giggle,
HH.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

What is required besides trusting in Jesus Christ?

I trusted Jesus Christ. I no longer do. Does that mean I didn't "do it right," or does that mean that I do not exist?

Originally posted by Sheepdog

what are you, following me around now?

In case you had not noticed, I was already participating in this thread.

i don't remember appointing you as a little brown shirt over what i do with my time on TWeb.

I don't remember anyone appointing you as the latest incarnation of Rush Limbaugh--yet you've taken it upon yourself to do so. Why do you disagree so vehemently when others do what you do?

i'm not answerable to you, and i don't appreciate you bastardizing a part of my religion to shame me into silence.

Perhaps you're right--I'll let you bastardize it all by yourselfr. You seem to be doing such a good job of it already.

Originally posted by Silent Running

I trusted Jesus Christ. I no longer do. Does that mean I didn't "do it right," or does that mean that I do not exist?

Apostacy is a hard thing to do, and if one did aposticize one would be grieving the Holy Spirit for as long as one remained in such a state. At first one might be aware of a sense of grief in ones inner-being but with time that would pass and eventually ones conscience would begin to sear and eventually one would feel less and less guilt and remorse. If one reached such a state one would eventually not even be aware that one were an Apostate. Therein lies the danger of Apostacy. It is well illustrated in the idea of a frog swimming in a pot that is slowly coming to the boil. If someone were in such a position, I would certainly with as much gentleness as the Holy Spirit provides attempt to rescue such a one. "Quick get out of the fire", I would say.

Sincerely,
HH.

Forgiveth me my typo as I shall forgiveth the thyne. lol
(OSAS)

You know what they say about men with large hands?

They can't type worth a hoot!

Originally posted by SlapShot

Forgiveth me my typo as I shall forgiveth the thyne. lol
(OSAS)

You know what they say about men with large hands?

They can't type worth a hoot!

They can't fly OSAS Airways either.

HH,

Reliability, in that we have a good idea of what was written down. Thats all that can be said. We got lots of copies. That does not make the copies of what we have any more true or false simply because we have lots of copies.

Originally posted by Sheepdog

ok, good. for whatever it is worth, we are on the same page.

if a person trusted in Christ, then deserted the faith, then what?

did he never really trust in Christ in the first place? if so, how would you know that? how to you know you really trust Christ?

I would say that it can't happen. Either that person did not really trust Christ, or he would not desert the faith. Jesus said that no one can take one of His out of His hand.