Originally posted by Silent Running

To make such an assertion, you must presume knowledge about my state of mind--a subject that I am relatively knowledgeable about.

Self delusion is also a well known characteristic of humans

You are correct, but once that argument is introduced, it begs the question of who is deluded--the one who believes, and no longer does, or the one who believes still? Both Jed and I could be wrong, but only one of us can be correct.

Originally posted by Silent Running

You are correct, but once that argument is introduced, it begs the question of who is deluded--the one who believes, and no longer does, or the one who believes still? Both Jed and I could be wrong, but only one of us can be correct.

Ahh!

The Shadowmatser can even detect his own attempts at self-deception. --- provably so.

So, the eagerly awaits the proof of your position.
Are you not deluded?
Can you phase it as a scientifically falsifiable statement?

Originally posted by shadowmaster

Ahh!

The Shadowmatser can even detect his own attempts at self-deception. --- provably so.

I'll have to take your word for being able to detect your own attempts at self deception, but self-deception and delusion are two different issues.

So, the shadowmaster eagerly awaits the proof of your position.
Are you not deluded?

The problem with arguing against delusion is that it is unprovable. If I was (or am) deluded, how would I know? If I was not deluded, how could I prove it? Both questions have no answer without appealing to an outside authority, and you and I do not agree on the question of whether or not the Bible is an appropriate outside authority. For matters of spiritual importance, I doubt we could agree upon an outside authority.

Can you phase it as a scientifically falsifiable statement?

No, because science is not competent to handle such an issue.

Originally posted by Jaecp

Are you being serious?

Tongue-in-cheek, but I was trying to make a point. Why is flying "magical"? If I pick up my wife, is she suddenly "magical" because she's flying? If I jump, am I "magical" because I'm flying? If we're both on a plane, are we "magical" because we're flying? For the last one, ask someone 1000 years ago, and they'll probably say yes. How do you define "magical"?

Originally posted by Tassman

they cannot be scientifically verified and are not particularly relevant in the age of modern science.

It must be depressing not reading any literature, having experiences, enjoying your food, or anything else that's not "scientifically verified." If you want to complain about something being not "scientifically verified", you had better be sure that you know what the consequences of that are.

Originally posted by Silent Running

I'll have to take your word for being able to detect your own attempts at self deception, but self-deception and delusion are two different issues.



The problem with arguing against delusion is that it is unprovable. If I was (or am) deluded, how would I know? If I was not deluded, how could I prove it? Both questions have no answer without appealing to an outside authority, and you and I do not agree on the question of whether or not the Bible is an appropriate outside authority. For matters of spiritual importance, I doubt we could agree upon an outside authority.

The Shadowmaster retracts the overly strong word "delusion". You are just using that as an excuse not to face up to the question.

Anyone can self-examine themsleves and detect their own self-deceptions. In fact, all that one has to do is observe their own thought processes. How often do you give yourself an "excuse" for something that you know was less than noble? Do people ever accuse you of of something and you rebell against the notion that you are less than 100% honest with yourself?

Books are available.

Originally posted by shadowmaster

The Shadowmaster retracts the overly strong word "delusion". You are just using that as an excuse not to face up to the question.

Anyone can self-examine themsleves and detect their own self-deceptions. In fact, all that one has to do is observe their own thought processes. How often do you give yourself an "excuse" for something that you know was less than noble? Do people ever accuse you of of something and you rebell against the notion that you are less than 100% honest with yourself?

Books are available.

I often wonder how the Lord's apostle must have felt on that dreaded (night ?) when he denied the Lord thrice. He had a weakness and it was 'betrayal'. That is one of the hardest sins to admit to, especially when it comes to those who call themselves former Christians. They don't know where to go anymore for the old crowd 'checks the skeef' and that is ever so hard to deal with. Thank goodness God is lot lighter on the personal judgements.

Sincerely,
HH

Originally posted by shadowmaster

The Shadowmaster retracts the overly strong word "delusion". You are just using that as an excuse not to face up to the question.

Anyone can self-examine themsleves and detect their own self-deceptions. In fact, all that one has to do is observe their own thought processes. How often do you give yourself an "excuse" for something that you know was less than noble? Do people ever accuse you of of something and you rebell against the notion that you are less than 100% honest with yourself?

Books are available.

If we are to abandon "delusion" and examine self-deception, then I am forced to the conclusion that things are as I said: I once trusted Jesus Christ, but no longer do.

ETA: Sorry, that needs a longer explanation. I have examined myself for self-deception ... more times than I can count, with more tears and travail than I normally acknowledge in public. Shadowmaster, I did not abandon faith in Christ on a whim, or for earthly convenience--I only abandoned my faith in Christ when I became persuaded that my faith was in something false. And I do not mean the "false for me" falsehood of the postmodernist: I am persuaded that if the Gospel accounts are accurate, then Jesus is a liar and a false prophet.

Originally posted by Silent Running

To make such an assertion, you must presume knowledge about my state of mind--a subject that I am relatively knowledgeable about.

No, my statement is based upon my understanding of scripture.

Originally posted by Seasanctuary

How do you know you really trust Christ yourself? Maybe you believe you do, but you don't.

What happens if you ever start to doubt your own trust? Is there going to be a feedback loop where your faith crashes catastrophically if it gives an inch? Sounds like glass: hard but fragile.

That is a complex question I don't care to discuss with you. You may find a hint in The Shadowmasters discussion on introspection.

Originally posted by Silent Running

If we are to abandon "delusion" and examine self-deception, then I am forced to the conclusion that things are as I said: I once trusted Jesus Christ, but no longer do.

ETA: Sorry, that needs a longer explanation. I have examined myself for self-deception ... more times than I can count, with more tears and travail than I normally acknowledge in public. Shadowmaster, I did not abandon faith in Christ on a whim, or for earthly convenience--I only abandoned my faith in Christ when I became persuaded that my faith was in something false. And I do not mean the "false for me" falsehood of the postmodernist: I am persuaded that if the Gospel accounts are accurate, then Jesus is a liar and a false prophet.

Are you willing to share with us exactly what you mean by "faith in Christ" and :trusted "Jesus Christ"? Also what then it would mean to be 'false"? The Shadowmaster wishes to understand, not to attempt to trap you in any way. He too has struggled with certain aspects and lost beliefs in some aspects of "Christianity" -- but not in Jesus.

Originally posted by Silent Running

I once trusted Jesus Christ, but no longer do.

It seems you have a very nicely prepared mantra, but it is all about yourself. A true confession is all about Christ.
Consider the words of the apostle Paul who said describing the technical process of conversion: 'When it please GOD, who seperated me from my mother's womb, and called me by HIS GRACE, to reveal in me HIS Son Jesus....' The position of yourself at the beginning of the sentence, makes you the pioneer of your so called Christian experience.
Perhaps the words of Catherine Booth make a startling summation of this. When an eager deacon asked her if he may talk to her son about the gospel, her reply was. 'If you talk him into it, sure enough someone will talk him out of it later on.' It seems you were too easily talked out of it, how then shall you be saved if all you are is talked out it, and by a convincing talk restored to your weak position of 'I now trust Christ again' Except a man be born again, he shall not see the kingdom of GOD.

Sincerely,
HH.

Originally posted by shadowmaster

Are you willing to share with us exactly what you mean by "faith in Christ" and :trusted "Jesus Christ"? Also what then it would mean to be 'false"? The Shadowmaster wishes to understand, not to attempt to trap you in any way. He too has struggled with certain aspects and lost beliefs in some aspects of "Christianity" -- but not in Jesus.

While, like Jed, I do not want to get into issues of verbal formulation, suffice it to say that I believed Jesus was God, that He died on a cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and would return for us. I placed my trust in Him to save me from sin.

Further reading into the Gospels persuaded me that there were promises Jesus made that had become broken--Matthew 24 is a classic example. The futurists explain away this broken promise by saying "this generation" doesn't really mean "this generation"; the preterists explain away this promise by saying that "return" doesn't really mean "return"; but taken as the text says, the promise is broken.

Jesus isn't coming back. There is no "return." And I placed my faith in a broken promise.

Now, the maturity of years (and continued study) has led me to be persuaded that Jesus never uttered the words in Matthew 24 ... but if one chapter in the Gospels is unreliable, how can I trust the rest?

Originally posted by Silent Running

While, like Jed, I do not want to get into issues of verbal formulation, suffice it to say that I believed Jesus was God, that He died on a cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and would return for us. I placed my trust in Him to save me from sin.

Further reading into the Gospels persuaded me that there were promises Jesus made that had become broken--Matthew 24 is a classic example. The futurists explain away this broken promise by saying "this generation" doesn't really mean "this generation"; the preterists explain away this promise by saying that "return" doesn't really mean "return"; but taken as the text says, the promise is broken.

Jesus isn't coming back. There is no "return." And I placed my faith in a broken promise.

Now, the maturity of years (and continued study) has led me to be persuaded that Jesus never uttered the words in Matthew 24 ... but if one chapter in the Gospels is unreliable, how can I trust the rest?

The Shadowmaster has visitors. He will return.

Originally posted by

The Shadowmaster has visitors. He will return.

Alien abduction going on?

- FreezBee