From the BBC (ref at bottom of article)

Prisoners 'killed' at US base
Two Afghan prisoners were killed while in US custody at their base at Bagram, a military coroner has concluded.

The report said "blunt force trauma" had contributed to the deaths.

The detainees had spent about a week in the detention facility when they died last December.

However, US spokesman Colonel Roger King told BBC News Online the pathologists' verdict was not final - a military investigation had been launched and was due to be completed later this month.

There are hundreds of former Taleban and al-Qaeda prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and in various overseas facilities.

Last month, human rights groups accused the US Government of subjecting the prisoners to physical abuse leading to a number of deaths and attempted suicides in custody.

Washington described the allegations of torture as "ridiculous".

The first

The US spokesman at Bagram said the two men who died there had been under allied custody for about 10 days altogether.

The first man died on 3 December after a blood clot in his lungs, and the second died a week later after developing blood clots as well as suffering a heart attack.


[The homicide entry on the [military death certificate] form is different from the legal meaning of the term
Colonel Roger King US spokesman at Bagram ]

But Colonel King vehemently denied the prisoners had been mistreated by US forces. "They are the first detainees to have required medical treatment at the Bagram facility," he said, and "the only casualties" so far.

Pathologists, he said, had a limited choice when filling the military death certificate.

Torture allegations

Specific allegations of prisoner torture were first published in the Washington Post in December last year.

According to the paper, interrogators from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had been subjecting Taleban and al-Qaeda suspects to "stress and duress" techniques of dubious legality.

Suspects at US facilities in Afghanistan and other foreign countries were sometimes held in uncomfortable positions for hours and deprived of sleep, the paper alleged.

About 650 men have been at Guantanamo Bay since the detention base was established in January 2002. Many more are held elsewhere.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...ia/2825575.stm


Published: 2003/03/06 13:25:40

© BBC MMIII

Okay, obviously this information is highly relevant to the present situation and we should all be concerned. Kiwimac is. Very concerned. Highly concerned. Incredibly concerned. His concerns have concerns. He's concerned about who put the bop in the bop-shu-bop-shu-bop and who put the Ram in the Ramadan-a-ding-dong. Let all logical and informed opinions bow before his concern-ation!

So the possibility of folk being tortured and / or beaten to death in the 'land of the free and the home of the brave" does not concern you?

Perhaps more than anything else you have written this explains your moral POV.

Kiwimac

The fact that the military is willing to report the incident, rather than covering it all up, as they are fully legally and constitutionally capable of doing in wartime for propaganda purposes, leads me to be skeptical about the claims of getting beaten to death. That and the fact that this is the very first incident we've ever seen, coming long after any 9/11 rage could have provoked it.

As for subjecting inmates to "unfair stress and duress" techniques of "dubious legality?" Not letting inmates get their beauty sleep? Cry me a bloody river.

Oh, and also: Gitmo ain't IN the "land of the free and the home of the brave"-that's the point of putting people there you may need to apply thumbscrews to extract life-saving information. We'd rather not inflict the type of people who might possibly:

1. Not care about killing as many people as possible if and when they die,
2. Be very, very, well trained in acting the part of the put-upon victim in order to score cash/propaganda points/new recruits-even GWB and WJC were fooled by the high-minded language of people like Sami al-Arain,
3. Become American citizens by abusing the same INS that gave the 9/11 hijackers visas AFTER 9/11,

upon our liberty-loving justice system. It's a war. Questionable stuff happens. Deal with it once the threat is over. Or do you think the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed fulfills that requirement?

How naive can you get?

Why do you think these prisoners are being held where they are? Did you think that your government (if you're American) was just going to politely question these men to learn about plots of terrorism? Do you think The US does NOT use physical means of "interrogation?"

One of the most painful things about growing up is realizing that almost nothing is as we hoped it was.

They wouldn't allow someone to kill the prisoners because they have way too much valuable information.

Cirisme,

Interesting statement considering this :

Two Afghan prisoners were killed while in US custody at their base at Bagram, a military coroner has concluded.

The report said "blunt force trauma" had contributed to the deaths.

Normally "BFT" means someone has been beaten to death!
Would you care to comment?

Kiwimac

03-06-2003 @ 07:35 PM
kiwimac:
Normally "BFT" means someone has been beaten to death!
Would you care to comment?

Yes. Simply beating someone up is a terrible interrogation technique. Instead, the judicious use of pain caused by other methods (say, electric shocks or needles or breaking fingers or whatever) works much better. Seeing as how the military knows this, I doubt that these guys were beaten to death.

But still we have "Blunt force Trauma" or are you going to suggest they did it to themselves?

Kiwimac

It is more likely than anything that the beatings were either a) by soldiers the prisoners mouthed off to, which is regretable, but hardly institutionalized torture, or b)prisoner on prisoner violence, which is also regrettable, but...

Torture, as an interrogation technique, is only useful if you have a very short period of time in which to interrogate the individuals. Other techniques are better if your prisoners aren't going anywhere. And lets be honest, these guys aren't going anywhere.

I always forget that perpetrators of evil get more protection than victims.

Silly me.

go samurai jack!

03-06-2003 @ 08:35 PM
kiwimac:

Cirisme,

Interesting statement considering this :

Normally "BFT" means someone has been beaten to death!
Would you care to comment?

Kiwimac

Yes.

You're an idiot.

That does not mean that the government is using torture, what is likely is A) A guard did it. or B) A fellow prisoner did it.

Unless you would like to prove they are using torture.

Didn't think so.

Ah Cirisme,

It must be wonderful to live in your world where everything the US does is right and dandy! Pity the rest of us who have to live with the end results don't think so, eh?

As for being an idiot, old saying "takes one to know one!"

Kiwimac

I suddenly have the feeling that kiwimac is going to find yet another moderator against him.