Nice Article DD...

Short even...

Yours,
Xavier

Thanks, Dee Dee -

I confess, I really did not have any handle at all on this 'pre-' vs 'post-' Millennium stuff - I still don't know what preterism means - And this little article is very helpful - Even I can understand something of those issues now, thanks to you...

And I would guess that this was a major dragon that needed slaying in your world - And you are right, it is so plainly obvious, once the insight is gained that the Father gave Christ to be head over all things, AND that in the same stroke He gave Him to the Ekklesia, whichever Ekklesia is His own body, and it is this Ekklesia that is the very fullness of Him, and it is He Who is fufilling all things, in all [of those in Him]... [And that this kingdom is here now upon this earth, and is entered through a purified heart that is humble and obedient to the Head, for only in obedience to Christ can we have His rulership, and his rulership is indeed, in this fallen world, His Kingdom...]

I really think that, in order to understand the etiology of the dragon, we must look at Reformational cynicism regarding the Church against which the Reformation protested... And from Which it emerged... The Church became to their mind but a body of human people gathering together, and thus lost this wonderful and pure and holy understanding that it has had from the beginnings... And notice that Paul is not saying the institutional Church, but the *HTIS* Church, literally translated as: "*Whichever* [ekklesia] is His Own Body..." And as Revelation so clearly shows, there are many ways in which a Church can go wrong, and will receive correction, and will not be suffered to exist if not willing to be corrected... Christ is directly the Head of His Ekklesia - And struggles and tribulations are essentials...

Thanks again...

[geo] Arsenios

Hey George, thanks for the encouragement. This insight is short but I do think pretty powerful in the scheme and easy to get one's hands around. I am hoping that it does start to open some minds to consider that premill has much speaking against it.

Yes Dee Dee

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Hey George, thanks for the encouragement.

Well, you ARE pretty incorrugible... er... encouragible??

This insight is short but I do think pretty powerful in the scheme and easy to get one's hands around. I am hoping that it does start to open some minds to consider that premill has much speaking against it.

It's a hard issue, so shallow are the usual wells, and so parched the soil, and so great the thirst...

We confess that we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come, but we also confess our hope/expectation [same word in Greek - elpizo, as I recall], and the basis of this expectation is not that we live in the world to come today in full, but in part - Paul says we have an EARNEST [part] of the age to come, that we see now but darkly, such is our fallen condition upon this fallen earth... So that when we cannot see our "earnest" facilitously, when it is obscured by our lack of faith, when we expect that the earnest is only pleasure in God, and should have no pain, that peace ignores tribulation, rather than embracing it, that there is no ongoing and permanent pain in a successful Christian life, we can then very easily say that this life is pretty much a wash-out, to be but gotten through as best we can, and ignored as much as we can, taking what good things we can as we can, and looking to the glory of the life to come to place our selves outside ourselves and into a future hope, disvaluing present... Yet the present is where we are, and we have much to do in it, and that is to turn from the world and unto God, and that is a lot of discomfort and work and effort and yes, even agony, as we voluntarily take up our own cross and follow Christ...

But for those who have not found this way, for whom Christianity is all about what God has done and will do for you, and not all that much about what YOU DO... For these, based upon their life experience, their conclusion only makes sense, for they have not tasted the power of the age to come, as Paul writes, and thus are not able to receive the value of repentance in the agony unto death of the taking up of one's own cross...

So what I would stress is that you not be too hard on those who believe differently, for if they are not participating in the power of the earnest of the age to come, they cannot know its existence in the present. They can only read, remember, and argue Bible passages - And human reasoning about these can support any position [and has supported all possible positions on virtually every passage...] Which is why the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, and not the people who are Her members, but are not Her... And certainly not just anyone who picks up their Gideon's and forms an opinion...

For myself, faithless wretch that I am, I can but marvel at their faith in the absence of so much that I so take for granted... They are far more faithful than I will ever be... And I sit at their feet, even though dis-agreeing with them...

[geo] Arsenios

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

the idea that Jesus is going to return to set up a thousand year Kingdom and rule from a physical throne in physical Jerusalem is simply not Biblical.

If Christ does not COME to the earth to reign then he would have confused the people of Matt. 25 because THEY WOULD have believed it as the text below states. The audience would have taken it just as it is stated. If the THRONE OF HIS GLORY is UP IN HEAVEN at THIS point (Matt.25's fulfillment) then there is no reason for him to COME. Moreover, you will notice that the ENTIRE text below takes place IN THE WORLD.

Matthew 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

They no DOUBT would have viewed that to be ON EARTH. It is only in Preterism that a person is told to allegorize this. Granted, Israel recognized symbolism, but there would COME A POINT in which this WOULD take place ON EARTH. HE LEFT earth and would COME AGAIN to it. I am NOT a PreTrib rapture person, by the way. I believe that believing saints AT THE END of Daniel's 70th week are caught up.

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

The kingdom of God was simpy God's GOVERNMENT. It is NOT "physical" in essence, but it IS manifested IN the physical when the time comes for it to be done.

What they looked forward to was ISRAEL being the headquarters. Although that would not COME TO FULL BLOOM until AFTER Daniel's 70th week, Israel could still have a role IN the kingdom of God without being it's "home base".

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

They were not to know the time of THAT aspect. When the leadership of the world was put in Israel's hands.

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

After Christ ascended he took "A" throne. Technically, he sits as a king and a Priest though being the seed of David still (Acts period). He would only come once the restoration and restitution of all things occured. THAT would take place BEFORE (yes, BEFORE) the tribulation period. It actually was scheduled to start some time AFTER Acts. After the restitution came from the presence of the Lord, THEN Christ would come afterwards. It is not the other way around.

Acts 3:19-21 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

NOTICE: Times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, THEN Christ comes. The heaven holds Christ UNTIL the times of restitution of "all things". Elijah would have been raised from the dead (Ez. 37). IT IS NOT UNTIL THE 1000 YEAR REIGN THAT THEY PUT ON IMMORTALITY WITH GLORIFIED BODIES. They come up with NATURAL bodies just like they did in Acts. In this resurrected nation, Elijah would have come forth and restored all things.

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Elijah restored NOTHING in the book of Revelation, which from chapters 6 and onward are Daniel's 70th week. In fact, the person that most people MISTAKE FOR ELIJAH in Rev. 11 gets KILLED. "ALL THINGS" are NOT restored by Elijah at the Second Coming, that is why Christ comes to beat down the enemies.

Therefore this text:
Acts 2:33-35 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

In Acts he was preached as being on the right hand of God (positionally).

Is fulfilled BEFORE the 1000 year reign. In this case, it comes in PEACEABLY.

Remember in Ps. 110 Christ's enemies ARE his footstool BEFORE he comes and it is the Father's doing. In Daniel's 70th week (book of Revelation) we see CHRIST doing the work, not the Father. The NATIONS will be OBEDIENT to his rule though many of the people will NOT NECESSARILY be Christian. It is like that in America now. We SUBMIT to the government, but not all are children of God. We do what we do because it is to our best interest to do so.

Psalms 110:1 <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psalms 110:2-3 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

OKAY, the above text CLOSES the time frame of the restititution of all things where the earth is RENEWED (Matt. 19:28). Christ rules FROM ZION at that point. Zion will be located IN THE WORLD, IN HEAVEN, (THE SKY). At some point during the PreTribulational kingdom it will appear to all. That is why people can later see it and REBEL against it. If you study out Ps. 2 you will see that the heathen (non-Israel nations) are saying that they will REBEL against Zion (cast AWAY the cords, break the bands, etc.). They don't say "let's rebel against some place that is not IN THIS WORLD". They recognize that the place is IN GOD'S HOLY HILL where Christ is sitting because they CAN see Zion, just like the text alludes to. It will be UP IN THE SKY-visibly manifested. In order for them to say "Psalms 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us" it is obvious that he MUST HAVE RULED them BEFORE he COMES FROM ZION and TAKES THEM AS HIS INHERITANCE. It is then and ONLY then does he rule IN WRATH. God is NOT ruling the nations now. The bible plainly states that God's judgements are NOT in the earth yet, but they will be later.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

There will be underground rebellion later which will eventually break out OPENLY and that is the reason that the KING will COME (as mentioned in Matt. 25) and ONLY THEN will the heathen literally be his inheritance THROUGH WRATH. But before then, it was THROUGH PEACE.

When God begins the kingdom of God, "the church, which is his body" will be the forerunner in carrying out God's government, BUT we won't be the only ones in the end. God will resurrect Israel from the dead DURING the kingdom of God (not to be confused with the resurrection of Rev. 20).

David, during the PREMILL kingdom will rule ON THE THRONE IN ISRAEL while Christ is above IN the Heavenly City, Mt. Zion. Israelites and saved Gentiles will be Joint-heirs with Christ.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

The primary text under consideration is:
Ephesians 1:15-22….Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.


Paul is beautifully describing a current reality for him in the first century, the reign of Christ. It is a heavenly reign with Christ seated in the heavenlies not on the earth. It is a reign at the right hand of the Father. Most Christians can look at this passage and do not grasp the implications.

As a premill, I was taught that this passage describes the reign of Christ in the age in which we are now living (the same age in which Paul was living) and in the “age to come” which is the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

IT IS. Christ is the head over "all things"-context? He is the head of the church where he has a REIGN over us NOW and over the principalities and powers. That is all that is mentioned in that book. NO NATIONS are mentioned there. Now, there are other passages to show that we will reign over nations, but not in Eph. Eph. 1 does not speak to that effect. This headship starts NOW and is better realized in the ages to come. In the above text there is no mention of Christ ruling over nations. That was not the point.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

However…. Paul in describing the nature and location of the reality of Christ’s first century, also states that this reality continues throughout the “age to come.” That is, even if we futurize the Millennium, which can chronologically be dismantled through numerous other means, the location (in heaven) and the nature (spiritual) of Christ’s reign does not change. He was “physically” located in heaven for Paul enjoying a spiritual rule, and He will remain so throughout “the age to come.”

This text stated in the heavenlies. But we are also seated IN THE HEAVENLIES NOW, by identification. If you notice, it does say above "this and that", but it is above POSITIONALLY. Where it is at GEOGRAPHICALLY is honestly NOT the point.

Ephesians 2:6-7 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

We, like Christ, are identified as being in HEAVENLY PLACES of authority. Christ is above what? EVERY NAME too. So, is he standing on it? NO. He is above the name POSITIONALLY. It is an anthropomorphism used to describe the fact that Christ is the one whom the father has chosen to be "the HEAD"; the leader of the Father's administration. The LOCATION CAN CHANGE, the position of authority can not. The kingdom of God will be both in the sky (HEAVEN) and on the EARTH. That was actually the whole point of this prayer:

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

In HEAVEN, the principalites and powers are SUBJECT TO HIM. IN HEAVEN, even Satan must ask permission before he could TOUCH JOB. On earth, well, that is another story! And when Satan gets too big for his britches and DOES attack the heavenly City during Daniel's 70th week, God sends forth his angels and they lay the smack down on him! Rev.12

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

This comports with this passage’s reference to Psalm 110 which arguably is the most important OT passage to the NT authors as it is referenced and/or alluded to more than any other. Psalm 110 states that Christ is to sit at the right hand of the Father (He is fixed there) UNTIL His enemies are made His footstool. Now since this already happened judicially at the Cross, this cannot be what is being referred to here, but rather the actual practical subjugation of Christ’s enemies during the ages. The writer of Hebrews recognizes this tension:

Hebrews 2:8

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

There will come a day when we will see all things put under Him practically, and He remains at the Father’s right hand until that happens and will physically return concurrent with the destruction of the LAST enemy, death (1 Cor. 15:26). When He returns there will be no enemies left to vanquish, the Kingdom is complete, consummated, and handed over to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24).

I.Cor. 15:26 and the other texts around that point say NOTHING about him not changing physical locations untill the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

By the way, we get OUR Glorified bodies (because we are NOT the Israel of God-unlike the Acts period saints) BEFORE the 1000 year reign-right at the start of the "PreMill" Kingdom.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

So… He cannot leave the heavenly throne and position to come to rule from the earth, which is merely His footstool (Isaiah 66:1),

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

The point of THAT verse was NOT that God COULD NOT REIGN on earth. The point is that there is NO HOUSE THAT YOU COULD STUFF HIM INTO, ie, his "presence" can be everywhere. Here, look at this verse:
1 Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Okay, so can the heavenS not contain him now either???

2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

for in the Premill paradigm, satan is still not in the Lake of Fire, sin is still alive and kicking, and death is still a reality for the saved, and there are enough enemies to provoke a final eschatological showdown at the end of the Millennium. This is utterly contrary to Scripture.

I hope that anybody reading this will realize that I am NOT to be confused with the typical PreMill position.

Now, what happened? WHY is it that we did not see the TRUE Coming of Christ???
Answer: God postponed the setting up of the kingdom of God.

There are many, many times in the scripture where God is GOING to do something, but the TIMING can be ALTERED. Even Molonism allows for Libertarian free will and SHOULD allow for a God that is not impassable.

Isaiah 38:1-5 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live. Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying, Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

However Molonism explains this, the fact remains...God CAN change his mind on WHEN HE WILL PERFORM CERTAIN ACTS. What I am saying is that after the Acts period, God PAUSED what he was doing for this present age's sake.

He created a group, not to REPLACE ISRAEL and BREAK HIS WORD to the nation of Israel-but another group to go along SIDE ISRAEL IN THAT KINGDOM TO COME.

Some Preterists point to the fact that Paul expected to LIVE to SEE CHRIST according to his EARLY WRITINGS. They say this is Daniel's 70th week. Paul DID TEACH in Acts that he WOULD LIVE to see Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How about the fact that after Acts 28 when he records his LATTER WRITINGS, he expected to DIE before he saw Christ?

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


There is only one way to solve this...to divide Paul's word and realize that something DID change between what Paul wrote in Acts vs. what he wrote after Acts. That would bring us to TRULY DIVIDING Paul's word just like 2 Tim. 2:15 states. There was another program brought in...

Grace,
Mike
PS. The 70 weeks of Daniel NEVER EVEN STARTED. I mean, not even WEEK 1...but it COULD HAVE some time after Acts IF God did not insert a parenthetical dispensation. And, as some are pondering this, know this:

The 70 weeks are based upon a COMMAND to rebuild JERUSALEM, NOT a proclomation from an earthly king to build a temple IN JERUSALEM. The TYPE IS NICE, but it is not accurate. Ezra 1 vs. Dan. 9

Moreover, it should be noted that the vision given to Daniel in Dan. 9 was to be TIED IN WITH JEREMIAH.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

This wall and JERUSALEM would be built in troubulous times...the GRADUAL regathering of Jews BACK TO THE HOMELAND OF ISRAEL duing the PREMILL kingdom of God. That, according to what Dan. read, was the time of Jacob's "trouble"-it went THROUGH the 70 weeks. It was not simply "Daniel's70th week".

This brings us to the next question:
WHO is Messiah the Prince?
Messiah just means "anointed".
It is DAVID. He will RULE from Israel on earth as Christ's Joint-heir.

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Now, if what I am saying is correct then I should be able to find the text that ties these 2 things together. Here it is from Jeremiah himself:

Jeremiah 30:6-11 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

This will be hard for Israel. They will go through 490 years WITHOUT A GAP BETWEEN THE 69TH AND 70TH WEEK(!!). At the end, Israel will COMPLETELY BE SAVED AS A NATION. Her everlasting righteousness occurs. She paid for her sins. Preterism does not let her pay for her sins and thus be restored, THEY KILL HER.

Daywalker, thank you for your response.

I have to respond to something from someone who responded to an older article of mine, then I will respond here. FYI - though you brought many issues up that are way beyond the scope of the article. The article was uncharacteristically short for me, and I was hoping to deal with the few important points without having to go into refuting the entirety of open view or X9 dispensationalism. So as such, I am letting you know that there are certain points you raised that I purposefully am not going to get into on this thread as it is way beyond what I wrote the article for and posted it for I posted it with the requisite time commitment for a discussion. Also my article is not about preterism per se. It does not require a preterist view to hold to it. In fact this view about Christ's reign has been the dominant view of the historical church while preterism has not, though it has enjoyed its periods of popularity.

The issue of the 70 weeks of Daniel is something that would be interesting for another thread. There was an older one with me and RightIdea that was interesting and rather than revive it, it might be interesting to do a new one at some point in the future.

I guess I am saying in short is that my response is going to be very focused on the points raised in my article, and I am going to try very hard not to go far afield.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

refuting the entirety of open view or X9 dispensationalism.

Deal with the issues when you have the time. That is fine, I was actually too busy to do what I did-but that is how it goes.

I believe that this dispensatation (or however YOU would choose to call it) started AFTER the book of Acts entirely.

And as far as the Open View goes, the other models (Calvinism, Arminianism, etc) all have their way of explaining what was said regarding Is. 38. I would say that if Molonism (for example) would say that God said what he did to get Hezekiah to repent (supposing that that is what GOD wanted all along) then a person has no reason to not apply that same perspective to the immenency of Christ spoken of in the Acts epistles.

Grace,
Mike

All this business is too esoteric for me. I can't imagine why God would want us to spend any personal energy on it at all. Seems like it would be the pedantic pastime of pharisees who wish to claim a rank in some heavenly Mensa Club hierarchy---and thus avoid doing actual goodworks. [But that might be a little cynical]

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

And as Revelation so clearly shows, there are many ways in which a Church can go wrong, and will receive correction, and will not be suffered to exist if not willing to be corrected...

Yet John Hagee and his "ministry" get fatter every day.

LA, this article is written is for believers on a point of orthodox Christian doctrine and is not meant as a point of debate for nonChristians or as a departure from orthodoxy. It just wasn't written for that.

As the author I ask that we stick to the narrow topic in the post. Hagee has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

LA, this article is written is for believers on a point of orthodox Christian doctrine and is not meant as a point of debate for nonChristians or as a departure from orthodoxy. It just wasn't written for that.

As the author I ask that we stick to the narrow topic in the post. Hagee has nothing to do with it.

Oops; I did it again. Apologies.

Sorry for the delay. That is par for course with me though....

I am going to respond to Mike's post at this point. I am not going to answer each point as I am going to stay within the narrow confines of the original article, anyone knowing me knows that it is difficult for me to wrote anything short and keep it within narrow confines. I made this statement which is basically the thesis statement of the article:

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

…the idea that Jesus is going to return to set up a thousand year Kingdom and rule from a physical throne in physical Jerusalem is simply not Biblical.

I then utilize one primary verse and several related ones to support this point. There are others that could be used to support it and ones that others would use to defend against my proposition. I am looking to deal though simply with these texts in question. Because Mike's post went into other areas, I hope I faithfully extract out the portions dealing with this particular point within the parameters of the article. If not, I am sure Mike will correct that.

I said:

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

The primary text under consideration is:

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Ephesians 1:15-22…. <verse edited out for brevity>

Paul is beautifully describing a current reality for him in the first century, the reign of Christ. It is a heavenly reign with Christ seated in the heavenlies not on the earth. It is a reign at the right hand of the Father. Most Christians can look at this passage and do not grasp the implications.

As a premill, I was taught that this passage describes the reign of Christ in the age in which we are now living (the same age in which Paul was living) and in the “age to come” which is the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

Mike responds…

IT IS. Christ is the head over "all things"-context? He is the head of the church where he has a REIGN over us NOW and over the principalities and powers. That is all that is mentioned in that book. NO NATIONS are mentioned there. Now, there are other passages to show that we will reign over nations, but not in Eph. Eph. 1 does not speak to that effect. This headship starts NOW and is better realized in the ages to come. In the above text there is no mention of Christ ruling over nations. That was not the point.

Not the point!?! Really? Are you suggesting that Christ is not in fact ruling over the nations now? Just that He is ruling over the Church and angels and demons? Who is ruling over the nations? satan? Welll then Christ de facto IS ruling over the nations even in that reduction as satan is a principality and power and if Christ is ruling him, He is ruling what he rules. But that reduction is untrue... some texts.

Psalm 110:2b

Rule in the midst of your enemies!

Psalm 110 is describing the current state of Christ and His current position. He is currently reigning from the right hand of YHWH, and is currently reigning over His enemies. Unless the Church is His enemy, His present rule is NOT restricted to simply the Church and angels (good or bad).

Psalm 2:7-9

I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, "You are My Son, todayI have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for Your inheritance and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces likes a potter's vessel.

This once again is describing the current reign of Christ. Over the nations. Over ALL. It is not speaking of a Millennium of peace, but of violence in which Christ conquers the disobedient, of which there are plenty. Notice in Psalm 110:2 a "rod" is also mentioned. It is the rod of the present rule of Christ. The Book of Hebrews chapter 1 tells us that the Psalm 2 event started in the first century. He was then ruling over ALL, in fact upholding ALL things by the word of His power.



This is not speaking of a descent to earth. Notice the direction of the coming. It is UP to the Father. This is not speaking of His return, but His vindication over death and ascension to the Father.... the very same event spoken of by the Ephesians passage. This is quite obvious. Let's now look once again at that primary text for discussion breaking it apart a bit....

Ephesians 1:19

.. and what is the exceediing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the workiing of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places....

Pause. He raised and seated. That is exactly what is being spoken of in Daniel 7. God raised up Christ to Him and seated Him with Him (thrones were put in place - Daniel 7:9). This is also what is being spoken of in Psalm 110. What was Christ to do? RULE in the midst of His enemies.

continuing...

Ephesians 1:21

... far above all principality and power and might and every name that is named not only in this agebut also in that which is to come.

This is not limited. Paul goes out of his way to be unlimited. Is there a name to be named? Christ is ruling over it and subjugating it. Is that "name" a nation? Is it the "nations"? It is included. Paul is universal. Additionally Paul states that the extent of Christ's reign remains the same spanning two ages. If anyone is positing a future reign over the nations in some "millennium" - if He is not ruling over the nations now, He won't be then either.

Let's look at the extent that Paul gives (and remember just in case he missed anything, Paul adds "and every name that is named" - kind of like how Psalm 8:6 goes so far as to say even the animals are included).

Principality - arche (Strong's 746) - this word primarily means beginning, thus signifiying authority, but it is used of human rulers and authorities such as magistrates (Luke 12:11), governors (Luke 20:20), as well as Christ Himself (Col1:18; Rev 22:13); and most likely the Father (Rev 1:8).


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Can the “nations” separate us from the love of Christ? Nothing can.





The verse is speaking of the supremacy of Christ over all things and uses the very same words. One cannot limit the range of meanings here or in Ephesians. The “nations” are not some rogue entities outside the primacy of Christ. The connection is tight. One cannot examine the Ephesians passage while not taking into consideration this one as well. I in hindsight should have included it in the article. It makes the case much stronger as against the type of argument that Mike proposes.

Power - exousia (Strong's 1849) – the word primarily means authority, it is used of humans very very often as in governing power or authority (Luke 23:7 is a good example). It is not limited.

Might - dunamis (Strong's 1411) – from which we get the word dynamite… mighty works or power. Human or otherwise.

Dominion - Kuriotes (Strong's 2963) – government, lordship. It unequivocably is referring to human government in Jude 8 and 2 Pet 2:10.

Notice in that Colossians verse teaching the supremacy of Christ and creatorship of Christ over ALL things these very same words are used with the exception of dunamis. It does though add “thrones” to our list of the present rulership of Christ. Mike’s attempt to limit the Ephesians verse does not work. The same rule Christ was enjoying when Paul wrote, is the same rule He will/is enjoying in the “age to come.” Nothing is added. Not the nations. Nothing.

Moving on I stated:

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

However…. Paul in describing the nature and location of the reality of Christ’s first century, also states that this reality continues throughout the “age to come.” That is, even if we futurize the Millennium, which can chronologically be dismantled through numerous other means, the location (in heaven) and the nature (spiritual) of Christ’s reign does not change. He was “physically” located in heaven for Paul enjoying a spiritual rule, and He will remain so throughout “the age to come.”

to which Mike responded:

This text stated in the heavenlies. But we are also seated IN THE HEAVENLIES NOW, by identification. If you notice, it does say above "this and that", but it is above POSITIONALLY. Where it is at GEOGRAPHICALLY is honestly NOT the point.

Mike answered his own objection. He points out that the text says that we are also in the heavenlies, and we are obviously on the earth, so it is not teaching about our location, for we are only in the heavenlies “positionally.” Of course! But why? Because we are IN Christ who no one denies IS ACTUALLY in the heavenlies. One cannot reduce the part speaking about Christ to a mere positional statement since he is in fact LOCATED there. Part and parcel of the Position of Christ IS His location. He reigns from where YHWH reigns. From heaven.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Ephesians 2:6-7 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Mike continues…

We, like Christ, are identified as being in HEAVENLY PLACES of authority. Christ is above what? EVERY NAME too. So, is he standing on it? NO. He is above the name POSITIONALLY. It is an anthropomorphism used to describe the fact that Christ is the one whom the father has chosen to be "the HEAD"; the leader of the Father's administration. The LOCATION CAN CHANGE, the position of authority can not.

We are because we are in Christ who is actually in fact there. I have no issue with agreeing with Mike that the main point of this passage is not to teach about the location of Christ’s reign but to teach about the reality of Christ’s reign. But the reality does not change from age to age according to Paul, and the reality for Paul was a reign from heaven, which he says will continue “not only in this age, but also in the age that is to come.” It is a true maxim that can be drawn from the main point. To bring in the idea that Christ is “above” every name to defeat this point by raising the spectre of hyperliteralism is invalid. I do not deny positional authority whatsoever. But the FACT is this… let’s take this slowly please….

Ephesians 1:20

…Which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places….

The rest of the NT teaches the raising was literal and He literally was taken up into Heaven (Acts 1:8). This is not merely positional for Christ. The position is subsumd by the actual. What others can only have by virtue of vicarious position (ie how Psalm 110 would have applied as well to past Hebrew rulers yet ultimately to Christ) Christ in reality has.

Luke makes it a point to say that the LOCATION was key in the Psalm 110 passage which is the clear referent for the Ephesians passage:

Acts 1:34

For David himself did not ascend into the heavens but he says himself: The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.

Luke’s point is that David could not have fulfilled that passage for though David may have positionally been at YHWH’s right hand, he did not really get seated by LOCATION in the heavens.

Mike continues….

The kingdom of God will be both in the sky (HEAVEN) and on the EARTH. That was actually the whole point of this prayer:

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

No comment as I have no issue with this. A King does not have to be “physically” present to reign. Many people today think that satan rules the earth, yet he is not physically present, so why does Christ have to be?

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

This comports with this passage’s reference to Psalm 110 which arguably is the most important OT passage to the NT authors as it is referenced and/or alluded to more than any other. Psalm 110 states that Christ is to sit at the right hand of the Father (He is fixed there) UNTIL His enemies are made His footstool. Now since this already happened judicially at the Cross, this cannot be what is being referred to here, but rather the actual practical subjugation of Christ’s enemies during the ages. The writer of Hebrews recognizes this tension:

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Hebrews 2:8

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

There will come a day when we will see all things put under Him practically, and He remains at the Father’s right hand until that happens and will physically return concurrent with the destruction of the LAST enemy, death (1 Cor. 15:26). When He returns there will be no enemies left to vanquish, the Kingdom is complete, consummated, and handed over to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24).

Mike says….

I.Cor. 15:26 and the other texts around that point say NOTHING about him not changing physical locations untill the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Demonstrably untrue. But Mike did not give much details to refute, merely made an assertion that I can see.

Paul again tells us about the timing of this event.



After the resurrection and “change” of the living and the dead it is the END. It is the LAST DAY. There is no Millennium to follow. It is the completion of the Kingdom and Christ delivers the Kingdom to the Father. After this resurrection, there is NO MORE DEATH because that is the LAST enemy to be destroyed. So that means that it is impossible for there to be a millennium in which people die. Death is destroyed at the Coming of Christ. There is no room to insert a Millenium in here.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

So… He cannot leave the heavenly throne and position to come to rule from the earth, which is merely His footstool (Isaiah 66:1),

Mike responds….

The point of THAT verse was NOT that God COULD NOT REIGN on earth. The point is that there is NO HOUSE THAT YOU COULD STUFF HIM INTO, ie, his "presence" can be everywhere.

I am sorry if I was not clear. I did not claim that verse was teaching that God could not reign on the Earth. God can do whatever He pleases. The Bible could certainly have taught that Christ will physically reign on the earth. God could do that. But the Bible doesn’t teach that. Here is my point with verse (and I do not deny the application Mike also brought out of it, but I am focusing on the first half of the verse that Mike did not focus on

Isaiah 66:1

Heaven is My throne and earth is My footstool…

Leaving that part out destroys the point. It is not JUST that a Temple could not hold His immense presence…. It was the the regal throne is in heavenand it is an insult to think that the earth, disparaging called a footstool, would suffice. With that in mind, it sheds some light on the insistence we have that Christ will leave His heavenly glory for the footstool.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

for in the Premill paradigm, satan is still not in the Lake of Fire, sin is still alive and kicking, and death is still a reality for the saved, and there are enough enemies to provoke a final eschatological showdown at the end of the Millennium. This is utterly contrary to Scripture.

Mike stated:

I hope that anybody reading this will realize that I am NOT to be confused with the typical PreMill position.

This is where he goes far afield of the narrow scope of the article so I am not responding to the rest. However, in light of my above quote, even though Mike is not a typical PreMill, my criticism above still holds to his position. It is still a common element.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Not the point!?! Really? Are you suggesting that Christ is not in fact ruling over the nations now?

Yep. That is exactly what I am saying. He is not reigning now, man is. Christ always has had an influence in this world, but that is not the same a governmental order and control. If Christ is reigning now, then we are in trouble, because it is the worse reign that this world has ever seen.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What else would "are become" mean if it "always was"? Without even getting into the whole Preterism vs. Futurism thing here, the fact remains that when Christ ascended to heaven he did not simply have his rule in this world. I imagine that a Preterist would say that this verse was fulfilled in AD 70ish? Even so...that would still place it after the ascension and the Acts period.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Just that He is ruling over the Church and angels and demons? Who is ruling over the nations? satan? Welll then Christ de facto IS ruling over the nations even in that reduction as satan is a principality and power and if Christ is ruling him, He is ruling what he rules. But that reduction is untrue... some texts.

For the record, I stated principalities and powers...
Again, a person will be hard pressed to prove that the body of knowledge "handed to the Ephesians" emphatically declared that Christ rules the nations. Remember too, we can not speak for them and demand that they could cross reference like us. They would have just read Eph. and believed what was stated. If God wanted to show them that Christ was now ruling the nations, Paul could have written it. Who rules the world? LFW.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Psalm 110:2b

Rule in the midst of your enemies!

Psalm 110 is describing the current state of Christ and His current position. He is currently reigning from the right hand of YHWH, and is currently reigning over His enemies. Unless the Church is His enemy, His present rule is NOT restricted to simply the Church and angels (good or bad).

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Do we really believe that the nations are WILLING right now? Just ask the United Nations... Just because he sits on the throne does not mean that that is the current state of his administration. Again, it stated "in the day" of his power. Evidently, that day has yet to come. I would HATE to think that this is as good as it gets. Thankfully, it isn't.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

[Psalm 2:7-9]I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, "You are My Son, todayI have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for Your inheritance and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces likes a potter's vessel.[/verse]

This once again is describing the current reign of Christ. Over the nations. Over ALL. It is not speaking of a Millennium of peace, but of violence in which Christ conquers the disobedient, of which there are plenty. Notice in Psalm 110:2 a "rod" is also mentioned. It is the rod of the present rule of Christ. The Book of Hebrews chapter 1 tells us that the Psalm 2 event started in the first century. He was then ruling over ALL, in fact upholding ALL things by the word of His power.

Preterism is built under the notion that the judment in AD 70 was NOT over the whole of the planet, but rather localized. Ironic. When this text listed above comes to pass, it will have the rebellious nations unto the ends of the earth in shambles exactly as the verse states.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

A sceptre of righteousness IS God's kingdom...but those other nations were not of God's kingdom---YET. Christ's government would come in STAGES.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

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Daniel [/font

7:13-14]I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! [b]He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

This is not speaking of a descent to earth. Notice the direction of the coming. It is UP to the Father. This is not speaking of His return, but His vindication over death and ascension to the Father.... the very same event spoken of by the Ephesians passage. This is quite obvious. Let's now look once again at that primary text for discussion breaking it apart a bit....

Then we have a real problem, because you have just stated that this reign, in accordance with Ps. 110 points to his PRESENT REIGN in the earth. Again, if this is his reign, his government is already defeated. Sin rules the world now. Paul would agree with my comments:
Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

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Ephesians [/font

1:19].. and what is the exceediing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the workiing of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places....

Pause. He raised and seated. That is exactly what is being spoken of in Daniel 7. God raised up Christ to Him and seated Him with Him (thrones were put in place - Daniel 7:9). This is also what is being spoken of in Psalm 110. What was Christ to do? RULE in the midst of His enemies.

Again, what does it mean to RULE in the midst of your enemies. When David reigned, there were enemies around him, but he controlled Israel. When Christ rules then he too will rule his area-the world.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

[verse=Ephesians 21]... far above all principality and power and might and every name that is named not only in this agebut also in that which is to come.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

This is not limited. Paul goes out of his way to be unlimited. Is there a name to be named? Christ is ruling over it and subjugating it. Is that "name" a nation? Is it the "nations"? It is included. Paul is universal. Additionally Paul states that the extent of Christ's reign remains the same spanning two ages. If anyone is positing a future reign over the nations in some "millennium" - if He is not ruling over the nations now, He won't be then either.

Here is the bottom line on this whole thing without answering every single arguement in detail...
Yes, he has a name above all names...that would mean that he is the most honorable. It never stated anything more. BUT...One day, the world will be instructed by God to BOW to that name...but the fact that the nations do not submit proves that this administration of the physical reign in this world has not started yet. It will someday, but not yet.

Yes, all things are made for him. But that does not prove that he is running the show, but one day he will be. Heck, "we are made" for him too, he does not execute unilateral control over us.

Yes, things visible and invisible were created by him and for him, but that looks to the positions that will one day be realized by his saints in addition to what his "angels" will play out. That too has not happened yet.

In short, this whole thing is about one thing. Does Christ actually rule right now, or is it that the stages are being set for a future rule?
Obviously, the latter.

I find it ironic...
Preterism spends soooo much time telling futurists that their future will get "better and better". Do they believe it??? I do. Then again, I am a futurist. I believe that one day God will "set up shop" right here just like he promised.
To the readers:
Grace,
Mike

DeeDee observes:
"This is also what is being spoken of in Psalm 110.
What was Christ to do?
RULE in the midst of His enemies."

And Mike replies:
"Again, what does it mean to RULE in the midst of your enemies."

That is the meaning of the incarnation, to establish that RULE, in the midst of enemies, upon the earth, for the whole problem we have as humanity is the falling away from the grace of Paradise in Eden that came from Adam's turning away from God...

I did an educational thing on the search the TM Bible, under "mine enemies" in the OT, and the Psalms are chock full of this term... Now the Children of God were chased out of Egypt by the armies of Pharoah, who were killed by God in [the baptism of] the Red Sea, and this, of course, is understood by us as being 'in a figure' a pre-saging of the baptism of Christ in the Jordan, and the elimination of our enemies in the waters of baptism, where God takes them from us... After baptism, we are able [in Christ] to overcome our enemies, and this because of baptism, and because of the result of baptism, which is our new creaturely life in Christ...

So that when David writes prophetically: [Psalm 23:5] - "Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies;" he is writing of the table of the communion of the last supper, at which Christians even to this day, *in Christ*, approach and draw near the table prepared for them virtually in the midst of them that afflict them, for Christ tells us that in the world we will find tribulation, yet we are not of the world, for we commune with the Most High God... And are new creatures in Him...

Hence the table that is prepared for Him, in the presence of His enemies, is indeed a table upon earth, but not under the rulership of the world, which is ruled by demons, yet Christ has overcome the world, and those in him who also overcome, are made pillars in the "pillar and ground of truth", the ekklesia [Church - the body of Christ Who is its Head]... And these are afflicted by the demons of this world, yet live in the peace of Christ, amid outward tribulations, thereby glorifying God and putting their enemies to shame... For it almost seems that a part of our work as Christians is to teach the demons who have the rulership upon the earth, that their rulership is for naught for those in Christ, and to the extent that we do this, we have spiritual attainment in Christ... e.g. Those who overcome...[Rev]

And yet all this is but an earnest of the age to come, whose glory we cannot even imagine, yet the kingdom of Christ is now set here, in the midst of them [like Saul had been before he became Paul] that afflict Him, to no avail, for these are the mature in Christ, who suffer afflictions and like Paul, glory in their infirmities... And not in the vanity of their so-called 'attainments' at all, but in humility and long-suffering they confess only their sinfulness and thus remain hidden in Christ, and in His peace... So that for those who are His, Christ's kingdom is within, in obedience to Christ, making no provision for the flesh, for kingdom is rulership, and Christ's rulership makes slaves and servants of His disciples who are mature in Him...

At least, that is what it means to me, for Christ to rule in the midst of His enemies...

[geo] Arsenios

My word, I wrote a long argument regarding what I "thought" Dee Dee was on about, then re read it and realised i concur.

These verses can not be used to support these positions, because to do so is quite simply unnatural.

Its quite clear in Scripture, that the next time Christ comes, it will be in judgement of humanity. Only those who have faith in Him will be exempt, but those who do not, will be washed away and destroyed, as it was in the days of Noah, and burnt up like chaf (Sodom and Gomorrah).

Imagine my surprise finding that I actually agree with Dee Dee :)

*huggles*