Mary Magdalene, the Beloved Disciple? - TheologyWeb Campus
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Mary Magdalene, the Beloved Disciple?
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Seasanctuary is offline
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Old
  May 9th 2004 , 05:52 PM
 
 
 
 
 
Here's an interesting essay in support of the thesis that Mary Magdalene was the beloved disciple...and author of the fourth Gospel:

http://members.tripod.com/~Ramon_K_Jusino/magdalene.html

I'd like to get comments on the specific arguments advanced by Mr. Jusino. I'm particularly intrigued by the evidence from the gnostic texts of the Gospel of Phillip and the Gospel of Mary that identify MaryM as the beloved disciple. This shows, at least, that Mr. Jusino's thesis was not pulled out of thin air in the 20th century...this was a relatively early belief.

Mr. Jusino also points out that if MaryM was the author of the fourth gospel, this in no way denies the apostolic authorship of that gospel. It may be significant to point out that the Bible already affirms MaryM as the FIRST Christian to preach the gospel of a risen Jesus.

Regards,
Seasanctuary

 
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Old
  May 9th 2004 , 06:12 PM
 
Last edited by Bib Lit Major : May 9th 2004 at 07:35 PM .  
 
 
I haven't read the whole article yet, but a note: He seems to rely heavily on Brown's reconstruction of the Johannine community. However, this is not well-advised, since Brown himself admitted that it was conjecture and that he would be happy if 50% of what he conjectured was accurate.

[Edit: Also, I'm doubtful of use of other books to define another book's meaning, especially since none of the quotes (of quotes of quotes!) said any wording which appears to be identical to the wording used to describe John's "beloved disciple" (I'll have to look at the Greek to verify this though).]

 
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Old
  May 9th 2004 , 07:05 PM
 
 
 
 
This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the following is in jest:


Hey, wasn't there a book about this subject that came out not too long ago. What was it called again? I just can't place my finger on it...


 
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Old
  May 9th 2004 , 07:43 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Bib Lit Major
I haven't read the whole article yet, but a note: He seems to rely heavily on Brown's reconstruction of the Johannine community. However, this is not well-advised, since Brown himself admitted that it was conjecture and that he would be happy if 50% of what he conjectured was accurate.
Yeah, I ignored that part myself. You can find a single scholar to say anything.

[Edit: Also, I'm doubtful of use of other books to define another book's meaning, especially since none of the quotes (of quotes of quotes!) said any wording which appears to be identical to the wording used to describe John's "beloved disciple" (I'll have to look at the Greek to verify this though).]
Don't you love deeply nested quotes?

Anyway, the Gnostic texts are within the first couple of centuries I believe and they do identify MaryM as being more specially loved than the other disciples. So even if it doesn't use the exact wording in John, the meaning of especially beloved disciple is legitimately linked.

 
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Old
  May 9th 2004 , 07:44 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Jinx72
This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the following is in jest:


Hey, wasn't there a book about this subject that came out not too long ago. What was it called again? I just can't place my finger on it...

Hey, Jinx, I hear Mormons believe in Jesus too. Mormons are silly, so I'm going to dismiss you now.

 
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Old
  May 9th 2004 , 09:45 PM
 
 
 
 
Here's some things about authorship with which I am familiar:

One interesting thing is that the beloved disciple doesn't show up until the "Book of Glory," which is the latter portion of John (chs. 13-21). If one held to a separate authorship for the "Book of Signs" (chs. 1-12), then perhaps "the beloved disciple" only wrote the latter portion of John. However, I think that this disciple doesn't show up until then because the "Book of Signs" is very much focused on the person and actions of Jesus. thus, there is little emphasis on any of the disciples.

Anyways, Bultmann suggested that the "beloved disciple" was less likely to be a mention of the author than s/he was a literary figure, showing the readers how a model disciple behaves.

As far as John itself, the only man Jesus is directly said to have loved is Lazarus (11:3, 11, 36). Thus, many have viewed him as the possible author. John Mark, interestingly, is also sometimes proposed as the author. Some even argue that Thomas is the author in spite of the fact of the account of his doubting only being recorded in John! The argument here is that only the beloved disciple saw the lance pierce Jesus' side, just like Thomas wants to see this mark. The weakness is that also several women saw the piercing and they could have told Thomas and the others, as well as the beloved disciple, if someone other than Thomas. Others still think it is perfectly defensible to go with traditional authorship. [I got this information from Gary M. Burge, Interpreting the Gospel of John, (Guides to New Testament Exegesis 3; Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992), 43-46.]

Externally, Irenaeus (circa AD 130-200), explicitly identifies John as being the beloved disciple (reference here, Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 1 Paragraph 1:

"Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia."

There are several other 2nd and 3rd century Fathers who attribute authorship to John.

 
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Old
  May 10th 2004 , 01:05 AM
 
 
 
 
Thanks, Biblit...that's interesting new stuff for me. =)

 
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Old
  May 10th 2004 , 02:25 AM
 
 
 
 
It would certainly explain what she was doing in DaVinci's. The Last Supper.

 
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Old
  May 10th 2004 , 02:35 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Minnesota
It would certainly explain what she was doing in DaVinci's. The Last Supper.
*googles it* Oh, interesting. I hadn't noticed a woman in that picture before. Yes, that would explain it if she's one of the four Evangelists.

Who's the guy whispering in her ear?

 
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Old
  May 12th 2004 , 05:04 AM
 
 
 
 
I posted this post in Exegesis. I hope it can be of help to those who are really interested. I find Justinos conspiracy theory rather shallow.
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Let me first elucidate an important point:


How many women were there under the cross?

The Gospel says (17th century KJV translation):

"Now there stood by the cross Mary his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleopas and Mary Magdalene."

How many women? Apparently three:

- Mary, mother of Jesus
- Mary her sister and so-called "wife" of so-called "Cleopas"
- Mary the Magdalene

In fact this is not so. Notice that there is no "and" after "his mother's sister":

"...there stood by the cross Mary his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleopas and Mary Magdalene."

Mary his mother and his mother's sister

Mary the wife of Cleopas and Mary the Magdalene

Some commentators (Esther de Boer) see here a symmetrical construction: 2+2. In this case, "Mary the wife of Cleopas" refers to Mary and "Mary the Magdalene" to "his mother's sister".

There is another possibility: "Mary the wife of Cleopas and Mary Magdalene" is the unfoldment of "his mother's sister":

"...there stood by the cross Mary his mother and his mother's sister, i.e. Mary the wife of Cleopas, even Mary the Magdalene."

Mary the Magdalene is the "wife" of Cleopas and Mary's sister.

Now you might say: why do you want so much that there should be only TWO women under the cross?

-Because it is possible from a linguistic point of view to understand and translate the verse thus

-Because the Semites are people enamored with symmetrical formulas and symbols. Two people on each side of the cross is a perfect symmetry. Three would be too much.

-Because only TWO people are mentioned in the following verse:

"When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!"

Personally I think that the second interpretation is the right one. I will explain later why.

.......................................................................................................

There has been a lot of discussion on "the other disciple whom Jesus loved mentioned in "John"20, 2. Most people have failed to notice the word "other" and rushed to the erroneous conclusion that because the Magdalene is mentioned concurrently with the "disciple whom Jesus loved", she could not possibly be that disciple.

Mary the Magdalene is indeed not "the OTHER disciple whom Jesus loved".

That there are two beloved disciples is made PERFECTLY CLEAR by John 21, 20 : "Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which ALSO leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? "

Two disciples leaned on Jesus' breast...Who are they?

But let us come back to "John" 20,2 .

"Then she(MM) runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them..."

There are two new words here: one, apparent in the translation, is "other", which completely changes the situation, the other is "loved" . This important linguistic feature of the original text is unfortunately not apparent at all in English for lack of a precise equivalent. The Greek verb used to describe the love that Jesus has for this OTHER disciple is "philein". This verb means love for relatives and parents, for friends and even pets.

Now the FIRST disciple whom Jesus loved, the one who was ALSO present at the Last Supper is loved with "agape". "Agape" is spiritual love, divine love. It is the unconditional love that Jesus has for his sheep, whom he knows by name and who listen to his voice (John 10) . The love that goes unto the end (John 13,1).

The contrasted use of "agapan" and "philein" (I'm using the present active infinitives of the Greek verbs) is not something one can dismiss lightly as a mere coincidence. The two verbs have different meanings and they are used with contrasted meanings in the last chapter of John, when Jesus asks Peter whether he really loves Him. He first uses "agapan" and then switches to "philein" when he realizes that Peter's love is not deep enough.

"Peter do you love me with unconditional love(one that is ready to lay down one's life for the beloved)? =agapais

-Peter do you love me with unconditional love? =agapais

-Peter, do you love me as a friend?" =phileis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that we have established beyond doubt that there are TWO beloved disciples, let us turn to the burning question of who that OTHER disciple is.

Before we do that let us notice something strange in what Mary the Magdalene tells Peter and that other disciple:

"They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and WE know not where they have laid him. "

Notice the "we". How come Mary the Magdalene uses the plural here? Verse 1 of chapter 20 only mentions Mary the Magdalene as going to the sepulchre:

"The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre."

Did she go there with somebody else? The Synoptic Gospels mention several women, namely Mary the mother of James and Salome(see Mark 16,1).

Why did the author fail to mention those other women?

Now this intriguing fact should make us aware of the fact that the author of the Gospel of John, when he/she describes events, is not writing in the manner of a modern journalist. "John" is not so much interested in a precise chronology, in a precise description of who was there or not there as in a narrative that brings home a religious point to the reader. The spiritual meaning comes first.

Let us proceed further:

"Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. "

Question: did Peter and the disciple live in the same place?

Answer: No. They lived apart. Read verse 2. The meaning is very clear but easily overlooked if one is not very attentive.

According to the text, she first goes to Peter's house and then to the place where the other disciple lives. That MAY explain the "WE": "...we know not where they have laid him... is said (breathlessly) with the accompanying disciple at her side, either Peter or the other disciple.

I would rather think that she went first to the disciple whom Jesus loved (with philia). They would have talked on the way to Peter's hiding place, anxiously speculating about a possible explanation for the disappearance of Jesus'body.

To go to Peter's place first would be against feminine psychology. She first goes to that other disciple in order to find comfort and let off steam. Having briefly discussed the situation, they brace themselves to tell the appalling news to the boss, Peter. What shall we tell him? How is he going to react?

BUT in writing down the text, the author of the Gospel of John prefers to mention Peter first. This, I think, has a symbolic meaning. Peter is the head of the disciples. I have to show him deference.

........................................................................................................

The other disciple runs and outruns Peter but does not go in first. Again apparently a display of respect for Peter's preeminence in the small community of Jesus' disciples.

When Peter has entered and checked what is inside, the other disciple enters and immediately this mysterious figure has a most profound insight: the son of God has resurrected:

"Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed."

The disciple has not seen anything but he (?) believes.

Truly it is of him (?) that Jesus spoke when he said "Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.

This disciple is blessed. More blessed than Thomas, of course. But more blessed also than all the other male disciples of Jesus who had to see his hands and side to recognize him:

"And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. THEN were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.


This disciple did not need anything. Or better said: the empty tomb and the linen clothes were enough to awaken his(?) faith.

Who, I'm asking you, would consider "emptiness" proof of God's existence? See how great this disciple's insight is !

NOW WHO IS THIS DISCIPLE?




Ask yourself:


Who was the first person to know of the incarnation and to believe in it without seeing any tangible sign of it, being OVERSHADOWED by the Holy spirit?

Of whom is it written that "BLESSED is she who did believe?

Who wrapped in swaddling clothes a divine babe born in a cave?


Her name is Mary, the mother of Jesus.

The mother of Jesus? "Original, interesting will you say but...but...she is Jesus' mother, how come she is called a disciple?"

Very simple. Remember the scene under the cross? What happened there? Jesus divested Mary of her biological motherhood: "Behold your son, behold your mother".

After John 19, 26, Mary is no longer Jesus' mother. She has become something even higher: she has become his disciple, the disciple, says "John", whom he loved as a son loves his biological mother (philein in Greek). Big hint here.

Mary the Magdalene, so-called wife of Klopas, took her to her house. It is there that she went first after discovering the empty tomb. Then the two of them went to see Peter. The three went out to the garden.

Mary, being what she is, outruns Peter.

Don't say:"She was old and withered. How could she have possibly outrun Peter?" If you say that it means that you don't understand not only a woman and a mother's heart but also the heart of a great spiritual being moved by love. Peter was slow because his love is slow and impure. Remember: he had betrayed Jesus three times. Mary had brought him to the world and she had risked her life by accepting to conceive him out of wedlock.

And she could not outrun Peter?

Now, when she reaches the cave, she stops and waits for Peter. Female deference for males and nothing else, I think.

When she finds herself inside the empty cave and sees the linen clothes, she believes. Linen clothes, swaddling clothes. Birth and death. Are they not the same? Yeah, this is a new birth, one that leads to life everlasting and an everlasting kingdom:

"And of his kingdom there shall be no end..."(Luke 1,33)

When they leave the place, says "John", each goes to their own place: "Then the disciples went away again unto their own (Greek eautous) home." (20,10)

Another proof that that other beloved disciple did not live with Peter and the other male disciples.

She is not there when Jesus appears in the Cenacle. She does not need to see him. She believes, that is enough. But it is of her that Jesus said "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed". Elizabeth had said almost exactly the same thing 33 years before...

Finally she may possibly have been on the fishing boat with Peter, Thomas, Nathanael and the sons of Zebedee (among whom we find John):

"There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the [sons] of Zebedee, AND TWO OTHER of his disciples. "

Glory to her who has not seen and yet has believed for ever and ever!

Amen.


On the question of the masculine pronouns used to designate the disciple whom Jesus loved see the following link:

http://www.lectio.unibe.ch/00_1/m-forum.htm

 
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Old
  May 12th 2004 , 05:15 AM
 
 
 
 
Scholars have noticed that "John" is very precise when "he" introduces new people in "his" narrative.


See how the Evangelist describes Mary, the sister of Jesus' mother:

"Mary the wife of Klopas"

See how Joseph of Arimathea is described:

"being a disciple of Jesus"

See how precise the author is when "he" describes Thomas

"one of the twelve called Didymus"


See how precisely Judas is described at the end of chapter 6, verse 72

"He spake of Judas Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve"

See now-and that is the first of my two Johannine "shockers"-how precise "he" is when "he" introduces the "disciple whom Jesus loved" for the first time:

There was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples,whom Jesus loved

Obviously, considering the care with which the Evangelist introduced Thomas, a minor figure in "his" narrative, the beloved disciple is not one of the Twelve.


Second shocker:

John, the son of Zebedee, is a Galilean. He came with Jesus and the other disciples to Jerusalem on the annual pilgrimage of Passover (pilgrimages? were Jesus and his followers crypto-Catholics?). He had no place of his own to stay in the Holy City, no family there. He lodged, like the others, in the house of a mysterious benefactor of Jesus'.

Right? Right.

But what do we read in "Jhn" 19, 27 ?

From that hour "he" took her (Mary, the mother of Jesus) in "his" own house.

From that very hour, the disciple whom Jesus loved took Mary to "his" own house in Jerusalem. No, they had no cars or copters at that time, "he" could not have taken her back to Galilea on that evening.

So, you see, it is all very simple, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear that is. The disciple was a native of Jerusalem. And "he" was probaly acquainted with the High Priest.

John, the son of Zebedee, was a native of Capernaum or some other little Galilean village on the northern shore of the Lake of Tiberias. Like his father and mother, he was a fisher and he had a heavy Galilean accent. He did not know the High Priest and had he ever tried to enter his palace and to speak to the servants there, they would immediately have recognized him as one of the disciples of Jesus. And of course he had no place to go in Jerusalem. No place of his own to take Mary to on that very night.

So no matter who the disciple whom Jesus loved is, he (or she) is certainly not the son of Zebedee.

 
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Old
  May 12th 2004 , 05:25 AM
 
 
 
 
"Jhn" 20,1: original text

She runs and comes to Simon Peter and to the OTHER disciple whom Jesus loved

Other fictional versions:

She runs and comes to Simon Peter and to another disciple whom Jesus loved

This version tell us that

1. Simon Peter/ the Magdalene is a disciple
2. Simon Peter or the Magadelene or both are disciples whom Jesus loved
3. In addition to the previously mentioned "disciple whom Jesus loved" there is another disciple whom He loves equally*
4. The number of disciples whom Jesus loved has no set limit

She runs and comes to Simon Peter and the disciple whom Jesus loved

This version tells us
1 Simon Peter/ the Magdalene is a disciple
2 Neither Peter nor the Madalene were the beloved disciple

This version would fit perfectly with the theory that the Magdalene cannot be the beloved disciple. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on you stance, this text is purely fictional.

She runs and comes to Simon Peter and another disciple, whom Jesus loved

This version could indicate that there were several disciples whom Jesus loved.

Now let us turn to the real text:

She runs and comes to Simon Peter and to the OTHER disciple whom Jesus loved

1. Simon Peter/ the Magdalene is a disciple
2. Simon Peter OR the Magdalene is a disciple whom Jesus loved
3. In addition to the previously mentioned "disciple whom Jesus loved" there is another disciple whom He loves equally*
4. There are only TWO disciples whom Jesus loved with special love.

In view of the above analysis, I ask two question to moderately smart but very, very open minds

1.WHO IS THE DICIPLE WHOM JESUS LOVED?

2.WHO IS THE OTHER DISCIPLE WHOM JESUS LOVED*?

My answers:

1. Mary the Magdalene
2. Most probably Mary the mother of Jesus



*There is a difference in the love though. The first disciple is loved with unconditional, brotherly love while the other is loved as a relative. Check for yourself the difference between "agapan" (first disciple) and "philein" (the other disciple). This is the biggest clue.

Check the Greek text with English word-for-word translation and explanations on the blueletterbible website:

"Jhn" 19,26 where the disciple whom Jesus loved with agape is mentioned (see egapa third person singular of indicative imperfect active of the verb agapao =is loving)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1083219332-9690.html#26

"Jhn" 20,1 where the OTHER disciple whom Jesus loved is mentioned. This time the verb is ephilei, same tense as egapa but the shade of meaning is different sice phileo is common love for relatives and friends.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1083219509-9906.html#2

 
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Old
  May 12th 2004 , 08:13 AM
 
Last edited by Robyn Banks : May 12th 2004 at 08:21 AM .  
 
 
Originally posted by Seasanctuary
I'd like to get comments on the specific arguments advanced by Mr. Jusino.
It's speculative. That's not a very specific comment, I know. But having skimmed through his article, I don't see that one can come to a better conclusion.

At least he didn't cite Barbara Thiering. Or did he (I did skim it, after all)?

But who is the Beloved Disciple?

I don't have any great difficulty with John being the author of the Gospel of John. In fact, in the absence of any more compelling arguments, I tend to think that John was the author, at least of the bulk of the material, if not of its final form. I've rambled on this topic before, so I'll adapt those ramblings...

Bultmann stated that “the Gospel itself makes no claim to have been written by an eyewitness.” This does, of course, overlook John 21.24, which expressly states that the gospel was written by an eyewitness. In the passage, the Beloved Disciple has “written down” these things.

The passage is the one clear example of redaction in the Fourth Gospel. The “we” in 21.24 is a separate person from the Beloved Disciple who wrote the Gospel/(the Epilogue?) down. The word for “written” means to physically write – or at least through an amanuensis.

The Epilogue is widely considered to be entirely a redactional addition. If this is so, then it indicates that the community believed that the original writer of the tradition, the Beloved Disciple, was an intimate disciple and eyewitness of Jesus on earth. Could still be Mary M at this stage ...

It is possible that each reference in the Fourth Gospel, to the Beloved Disciple, is a later interpolation. The motivation for doing so may be to legitimate the Gospel, and the community, through apostolic witness. However, the “rumour” which spread in the community, that the Beloved Disciple would not die before the Parousia, speaks against such a view. If the disciple has now died, the redactors would want to explain such a rumour. If the rumour could be started, there must have been the possibility that the Beloved Disciple had spoken with Jesus – i.e. s/he was a first generation disciple. The Redactors would have no motivation to fabricate such a rumour, in order to explain it. Therefore, the Beloved Disciple had a widespread regard in the community as a close associate of Jesus, and a bearer of tradition.

In addition, in 19.35 we are told that the one who saw Jesus’ side being pierced had given testimony, and his testimony was true. Although the witness is not identified, in 19.26-27, the Beloved Disciple is shown to have been present at the foot of the cross.

External Evidence

The external evidence identifies John, the Son of Zebedee, as author.

Irenaeus, in Adv Haer 3.11 claimed to have information from Papias that John the disciple was the Gospel’s author. Irenaeus reports that he lived until Trajan (AD 98-117). He places John at Ephesus, from information received via the “elders” in Asia Minor, especially Polycarp. The influence of John in Asia Minor is perhaps shown by Tatian using John’s chronology in AD 170. Appollinaris of Hierapolis, Asia Minor, attacked ignorant Christians who claimed that Jesus ate Passover on 14 Nisan, in support of John: “this is how Matthew describes it. But the Gospels seem to contradict them”. In the Paschal dispute, John was seen to support the Quartodeciman custom in Asia Minor.

Papias of Hierapolis collected traditions from the “elders” (AD 125-135), distinguishing between John son of Zebedee and an elder John – each at Ephesus. He wrote: “…the words of the elders - what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say...” It has been suggested, by modern-day critics only, that the two Johns may have been confused as authors of the Fourth Gospel.

Internal Evidence

There's the Beloved Disciple references and the other references mentioned above. But also, Hengel notes that the title of the Gospel, “evangelion kata Ioannen” was included in the final redaction of the Gospel, and is therefore ancient. Both P66 and P75 have the inscriptio.


The Beloved Disciple

The Beloved Disciple only appears, by that title, on Jesus’ last day. There are other references to anonymous disciples, which may or may not refer to the same disciple:
- 1.37-42 Two disciples of John the Baptist follow Jesus – one is Andrew, the other is unnamed.
- 18.15-16 Peter and another disciple follow Jesus to the courtyard of the high priest. The other disciple, absent from the 3 Synoptics, is known to the high priest, and gets Peter into the courtyard.


Identity?

It is difficult to know why the eyewitness would refer to himself, immodestly, as the recipient of special love from Jesus. This is especially so, if the reason for anonymity was modesty. It is suggested plausibly by Brown that the eyewitness disciple referred to himself simply as “the other disciple”, and that it was his own followers who referred to him as the Beloved Disciple. One may go further and suggest, like H Thyen, that all of the Beloved Disciple passages were altered by the editor of chapter 21; that the original gospel did not mention the “Beloved Disciple” at all. Although, as discussed above in relation to the “rumour”, a complete interpolation seems unlikely.

The role of the Beloved Disciple is centred on the community’s understanding of itself as being in direct continuity with the Jesus of history. The Beloved Disciple is the authority and witness to the tradition. From 1.14, the community (“we”) is a joint-witness, through the Beloved Disciple, to the glory of Jesus. I'm wondering what authority Mary Magdalene would have in this regard. Probably not a lot. The Beloved Disciple is a man. And one of the 12.

It is true that the Beloved Disciple is deliberately contrasted with Peter in the above passages (and perhaps in 18.15-16). The comparison is usually favourable. He is more intimate with Jesus (reclining next to him, in his bosom), and receives special information; he is the first to the empty tomb, and the first to believe in the risen Son of Man; he is the first to recognise Jesus from the fishing-boat. The one appearance of the Beloved Disciple without Peter is at the foot of the cross, where Jesus entrusts his mother to him – contrasting with Peter’s earlier denial.

The close association of Peter and John in the Synoptics and Acts, and restriction of the Last Supper to the Twelve in the Synoptics should be noted in considering the identity of the Beloved Disciple.

This comparison is indicative of a claim of “one-upmanship” between the Johannine and Petrine communities. Brown suggests that Peter may be symbolic of the Christians of the Apostolic Churches. The author of the Fourth Gospel has deliberately added the Beloved Disciple to certain accounts which the Synoptics include Peter alone (eg in the Synoptics, Peter alone follows Jesus to the High Priest’s courtyard, and Luke 24.12 has Peter run alone to the empty tomb). In Brown’s view, the author’s community is symbolically counterposing itself over “the kinds of churches that venerate Peter and the Twelve” – the Apostolic Churches.

Yet, the Fourth Gospel recognises that authority is accorded to Peter by the command to “feed my sheep”, in chapter 21. Peter’s (apostolic) death as a martyr is also recognised.

In relation to this is the author’s non-use of the category “apostle”. The primary Christian category is the “disciple”, who is guided by the Paraclete. The author stresses the living presence of Jesus, through the Paraclete, over Apostolic Christians.

That the Beloved Disciple is symbolic is evidently true. That he is merely symbolic – not a real entity – seems unlikely:
- Other disciples and characters have symbolic dimensions, such as Mary and Peter, without being pure symbols.
- If the Beloved Disciple is purely ideal or fictional, as noted above, the author of 21.20-23 was either deceived or deceptive as to the distress in the community over his (symbolic) death. The passage does not make sense without a real person – whether author, eyewitness or both – behind the rumour.

Yet, he embodies the ideal of a disciple of Jesus, standing closest to Jesus in belief and trust.


So, Who?

The Beloved Disciple is firmly associated as the authority behind the Gospel. The redactor of 21.24 goes further, and calls him the writer of the Gospel. If he was the writer, as we understand the role, the unity of the Gospel would suggest that he was the central and dominant writer. If the Beloved Disciple was only the bearer of the traditions, and another person composed the Gospel, then that other person should also be the central and dominant writer. In the latter case, it follows that the identities of the author and the Beloved Disciple would be different.

As the arguments concerning the identities of the Beloved Disciple and the author overlap, I set them both out here.

John, son of Zebedee


- The external evidence from the second century almost unanimously supports the son of Zededee as author of the Fourth Gospel.
- The close association of the Beloved Disciple with Peter fits no other disciple as well as John.
- If the author is aware of the Synoptic tradition, or at least Mark, it would take a man of real authority to challenge that tradition in the way he apparently has.
- By comparing the gospels, it has been suggested that Salome was the mother of John, and the sister of Mary the mother of Jesus. This might explain why Jesus entrusted his mother to the Beloved Disciple.
- If not John, then, along with James he would be unaccountably absent from the Gospel. All of the other disciples who feature in the Synoptic lists – Peter, Andrew, Philip, Thomas – have a major place.
- In 21.2, the Beloved Disciple is either one of the sons of Zebedee, or one of the two unnamed disciples. The veil of anonymity is dropped somewhat, and dropped further at the conclusion of the chapter.
- John the Baptist is only designated as “John” in the Gospel. Is the twice-emphasised “testimony” (cf 21.24) of John the Baptist in 1.6 another instance of the author’s double meaning, in indicating that the present witness/author is also John? (1.6-7 “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness (μαρτυρια) to testify (μαρτυρεω) to the light, so that all might believe through him.”)
- Apostolic authority, in the form of the Beloved Disciple, is the highest certificate of truth for the community wishing to assert itself against other churches – more so than for a person outside of the Twelve.

Against the author or Beloved Disciple being the son of Zebedee, it has been argued that:
- John was a Galilean, but the Gospel focuses on Judaea and Jerusalem. However, if John accompanied Jesus there regularly, he would have known the area.
- Acts 4.13 describes the son of Zebedee as “illiterate and ignorant”. This possibly speaks against the writer of the Gospel being John, although not against the Beloved Disciple as the source of the Gospel’s tradition.
- Two of the principal scenes which John witnessed – the Transfiguration and the Agony in the Garden – are not mentioned in the Gospel.
- There is a fairly late (5th century) tradition that John was martyred at an early age.
- If John wrote the Fourth Gospel, he would have been 80-100 years old. However, tradition supports that he lived to an old age. If he had written much of the material earlier in his life, old age would not have adversely affected his ability to compose the Gospel.


John, the Elder

As an alternative to John the son of Zebedee, the Elder who wrote 2 & 3 John has been suggested as the author of the Gospel, or as the Beloved Disciple of Jesus.

- Papias names two separate Johns in Ephesus, each “disciples of the Lord”, writing in c AD 130. The latter John was still alive when Papias (born AD 70) made his enquiries of the elders.

However:
- There is simply no evidence in antiquity that John the Elder was the author. There is only the possible confusion of Johns in Ephesus.
- Papias mentions that John the Elder affirmed that John son of Zebedee authored the Fourth Gospel.


Anonymous Elder Disciple of Jesus

- Hengel postulates a single head of the Johannine community, an outstanding teacher, who founded the school in AD 60-70, and AD 100-110 in Asia Minor. He claimed to be a disciple of Jesus, and a disciple of quite a special kind.
- The creation of a “master preacher and theologian” or a “principal disciple marked with dramatic genius and profound theological knowledge” may raise far more problems than it solves. The greatest theologian the church has ever known, next to Paul, would therefore be unknown.


Lazarus

Lazarus is the only male specifically said to be loved by Jesus (11.3,5,36). However, it would be unusual that he is anonymous for the remainder of the Gospel, after being introduced.


John Mark

John Mark’s home was in Jerusalem (Acts 12.12), and he perhaps had a priestly link, as his cousin Barnabas was a Levite (Col 4.10; Acts 4.36). However, there is no evidence to show that Jesus even knew the man.


So the traditional authorship and identity of the Beloved Disciple as John son of Zebedee appears sound. Other alternatives pose as many problems as they solve.

Robyn Banks

 
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Old
  May 12th 2004 , 08:15 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Magdalenbrother
"Jhn" 20,1: original text

She runs and comes to Simon Peter and to the OTHER disciple whom Jesus loved


She runs and comes to Simon Peter and to another disciple whom Jesus loved


She runs and comes to Simon Peter and the disciple whom Jesus loved


She runs and comes to Simon Peter and another disciple, whom Jesus loved


Now let us turn to the real text:

She runs and comes to Simon Peter and to the OTHER disciple whom Jesus loved

In view of the above analysis, I ask two question to moderately smart but very, very open minds

1.WHO IS THE DICIPLE WHOM JESUS LOVED?

2.WHO IS THE OTHER DISCIPLE WHOM JESUS LOVED*?

My answers:

1. Mary the Magdalene
2. Most probably Mary the mother of Jesus




Your reading comprehension skills need work.

And Eisegesis is a waste of time.

 
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Old
  May 12th 2004 , 08:30 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Robyn Banks
Lazarus

Lazarus is the only male specifically said to be loved by Jesus (11.3,5,36). However, it would be unusual that he is anonymous for the remainder of the Gospel, after being introduced.


I know this is off-topic and do not wish to distract or detract from your well-researched discourse, but in Mark 10:21 it says, "And Jesus, looking on him, loved him, and said to him..."

It is highly instructive to note that when another gentleman (a lawyer)approached Jesus with the exact same question as the young ruler in Mark 10 (Luke 10:25) it does not include this description of Jesus' attitude towards him.


Regards,
Cleombrotus

 
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Old
  May 12th 2004 , 03:43 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Cleombrotus
I know this is off-topic and do not wish to distract or detract from your well-researched discourse, but in Mark 10:21 it says, "And Jesus, looking on him, loved him, and said to him..."

It is highly instructive to note that when another gentleman (a lawyer)approached Jesus with the exact same question as the young ruler in Mark 10 (Luke 10:25) it does not include this description of Jesus' attitude towards him.


Regards,
Cleombrotus
Thanks for noting that.

Robyn Banks

 
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