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The design argument in Theistic Evolution.
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 06:23 AM
 
 
 
 
 
I have been exploring the many fruits of theistic evolution. An argument which is being bounced around at the moment and one that I am interested in is the question of whether we were actually inevitable. It’s a kinda design argument I guess. That once life on this planet had formed were we an inevitable route for evolution or should we count our lucky stars that we are here.

Its something I picked up on while reading research by Conway – Morris and his team into the Burgess Shale.

Morris has a big disagreement with Gould over the Shale. Gould sees the event as a one off freak. So many diverse phyla occurring in such a short space of time that if we were to re-run the tape of evolution the outcome would be completely different. Morris on the other hand thinks there are a lot more similarities then are given credit for and that the process of evolution has a nack of singling on a certain function to overcome a problem. Such as the many different lines of creatures who have evolved wings, eyes etc. With evolution grouping so regularly and following the same compact lines was it inevitable that we would evolve as an almost set solution.

The burgess shale is the main point of argument for this at the moment. After the explosion the similarities in the process are clear. Here is a large extract on an article by Morris


Looking back at the Cambridge group's classifications of the Burgess Shale, undertaken many decades after Walcott's pioneering work, my colleagues and I can see that we made some mistakes. Too often, we thought we had stumbled across yet another novel body plan (phylum, if you will), and in a few crucial instances, we did not realize that seemingly unrelated fossils were actually fragments of a single organism. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that we had exaggerated the diversity of these supposedly bizarre fossils and needed to reconsider their evolutionary relationships. Recent discoveries in southern China (Yunnan) and northern Greenland (Peary Land) have provided links that join several of these previously unconnected fossils and establish them in recognizable phyla.

Let's begin with the animal Wiwaxia. In Wonderful Life, it is described as "another Burgess oddball, perhaps closer to the Mollusca than to any other modern phylum ... but probably not very close." Ironically, the first breakthrough in establishing Wiwaxia's affinities came from a postgraduate paleontologist at Harvard who was inspired by Gould's lectures a decade or so ago. This young researcher, Nick Butterfield, managed to extract pieces of scalelike armor from the fossilized creature. When Butterfield studied their microstructure, he noticed immediately that it was the same as that of the chitinous bristles (chaetae) that project from the bodies of such modern annelids as earthworms. His conclusion, published in 1990, was that Wiwaxia was not a mollusk at all but an annelid. Yet this was what Walcott had claimed in 1911. In at least this case, Butterfield concluded, Walcott was not "shoehorning" bizarre animals into familiar phyla, as Gould had charged; Walcott had got
it right the first time.

Another recent discovery, in which I was fortunate to play a role, sheds further light on the place of certain Burgess animals in evolutionary history. On July 9, 1989, I was with a team in northern Greenland, collecting at a site containing fauna from Sirius Passet, a regional variant of the Burgess Shale. It was our first day at the site, and almost immediately we found an extraordinarily complete fossil of a halkieriid--an armored slug with a trig shell at either end. We wondered whether this organism--with such a weird anatomy, apparently so different from any other animal's--represented yet another new phylum. But that was only at first sight. Until then, halkieriids had been known only from the evidence of isolated scales; with our discovery of this and other complete specimens, however, we were able to confirm that the creature was in reality closely related to Wiwaxia.

In making that connection, we were moving toward resolving a fundamental problem in evolution: How are body plans constructed, and how do new phyla actually emerge? To get from halkieriids, well represented as Lower Cambrian fossils, to Wiwaxia, which thrived in the Middle Cambrian, there is no need to postulate macroevolutionary jumps or some sort of genetic revolution. The halkieriids are not only older than Wiwaxia but also clearly more primitive. In life, halkieriids crawled across the seabed, their scales forming a beautifully arranged protective armor. Wiwaxia looked somewhat similar, but as Butterfield showed, its scales evolved into chaetae. So is Wiwaxia an annelid? It is really amatter of definition, but in my opinion, Wiwaxia is a member of the annelid stem group—a creature still in the process of becoming an annelid. Once scrutinized, the wiwaxiids and the halkieriids, despite their seemingly great differences, are closely related. They may be connected by two simple steps: the scales of halkieriids are transformed into wiwaxiid chaetae, and lobate, leglike extensions develop so that the style of locomotion changes
from crawling to a kind of stepping.

In recent years, the techniques of molecular biology have profoundly influenced
paleontology in ways that hear on Gould's premise that the Burgess Shale was a seemingly inexplicable explosion of hundreds of bizarre life-forms, unrelated to anything familiar. One major surprise concerns the evolutionary position of the phylum Brachiopoda, a group with bivalved shells. Molecular data, quite unexpectedly, shows brachiopods to he closely related to annelids. Functional morphology also indicates that the shells of brachiopods must have originated as two separate valves; clams, in contrast, derived their familiar double shells from an ancestor with a single plate, across which developed a narrow zone of weakness, which became the hinge. Projecting from the margin of both valves of a brachiopod are delicate, chitinous bristles--identical to those of annelids Halkieriids also have two prominent shells. In the pre-brachiopods, I believe, the two shells were probably close to each other, back to back. To produce a true brachiopod, all that was necessary was to fold one shell beneath the other. And, interestingly, exactly this process can he seen in the embryological development of certain primitive, living brachiopods. So what was once a worm is transformed into a bivalved animal, the familiar brachiopod. Nor does the story finish here. If the scales of halkieriids can become chaetae, surely they can also evolve into the structurally identical chitinous bristles of a brachiopod.
Of course, the origin of brachiopods is not so simple, but such transformations are
functionally plausible and historically believable. Although constrained by genetic
possibilities, they are products of convergent evolution. Similar environmental selection pressures, acting on differing anatomies, can create convergent or parallel adaptations.

New discoveries and interpretations have altered our view of arthropod evolution as well. The biggest surprise is Hallucigenia, exemplar of the bizarre. Or is it? Recent finds from the Chinese deposit of Chengjiang reveal that my original reconstruction of this odd-looking, spiky animal had but one simple mistake: I had envisioned it upside down. Hallucigenia (a name coined by a colleague and me in an attempt to capture its dreamlike appearance) may still look strange, but with new discoveries, especially from southern China, Hallucigenia is now seen to belong to a group of primitive arthropods. And what about the famous Anomalocaris, another of Gould's star oddballs? "Nothing ... about Anomalocaris suggests a linkage with arthropods," he writes. Now we know better. The discovery, in different species, of lobopod-like legs and jointed appendages along the length of the body not only establishes a link between Anomalocaris and the more primitive Hallucigenia but also is crucial for understanding the appearance of the first arthropods--a group that would
eventually radiate into crabs, spiders, and the millions of species of insects.

So the Burgess creatures do not form an exception to the orthodox mechanisms and
patterns of evolution, as I believe Gould has implied. The new evidence suggests that not only did the sheer number of species increase since the Cambrian (as nearly everyone agrees), but, more significantly, the total number of phyla has been maintained and has not, contrary to what Gould has written, shown a catastrophic decline. But now we come to the most egregious misinterpretation of the Burgess Shale in Gould's book—a conclusion drawn not from the evidence of paleontology but from Gould's personal credo about the nature of the evolutionary process.

Gould sees contingency--evolutionary history based on the luck of the draw--as the major lesson of the Burgess Shale. If you rerun the tape of evolution, he says, the results would surely come out differently. Some creature similar to Pikaia, a small eel-like animal with a rudimentary head, may have survived in Cambrian seas to become the ancestor of all vertebrates. If it hadn't, Gould says, perhaps other--entirely different--major animal groups would have evolved instead from one of the Burgess Shale's other "weird" body plans. Such a view, with its emphasis on chance and accident, obscures the reality of evolutionary convergence. Given certain environmental forces, life will shape itself to adapt. History is constrained, and not all things are possible.

To understand how creatures that are descended from very different groups can evolve similar forms and functions, consider that dolphins, which evolved from doglike mammals, are shaped like fish because there exists an optimal shape for moving through water--a classic example of convergent evolution. Or consider another example: both placental mammals and marsupials produced a large, saber-toothed carnivore on separate continents. If such a quality as intelligence can arise both in human beings and in the octopus--an eight-armed sea animal without a bone in its body--then perhaps there is a course and a direction to evolution that would be achieved despite diverse anatomical starting points.

Contingency or no, I believe that a creature with intelligence and self-awareness on a level with our own would surely have evolved--although perhaps not from a tailless, upright ape. Almost any planet with life, in my view, will produce living creatures we would recognize as parallel in form and function to our own biota. But first, life must arise, and we have no idea how rare an event that might be. If we are honest, despite our exciting fancies about extraterrestrials, we must admit the real possibility that life arose but once, and that we are alone and unique in the cosmos--with an awesome and, to many, unanticipated role as stewards of all other living things. But were we to let evolution take another route than it did, why not grant (as Gould will not) that another kind of being would have evolved to fill our special place in nature?


I found the position interesting. Any thoughts?

Regards

Beef

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 06:37 AM
 
 
 
 
The big question is, if the big event hadn't happened in 65mill bce (alledgedly ) then would intelligence have arisen in the reptillian world instead. Is it the fact of it that is 'programmed' in, or the actual specific lifeform.

Imagine a garden of Eden with two upright lizards...

And the rodent was more subtle than any other creature which God had created...

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 06:40 AM
 
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I think this is too an extent what Morris is getting at. If not us then there would be a similar creature in our place with the same sort of qualities. Which may have evolved from a different line.

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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 06:44 AM
 
 
 
 
Also, why hasn't intelligence evolved before, or several times. You mention the octopus - I don't know about the matter myself - but why has only one strain of evolved apes survived; surely the competition would not have been that great?
And why didn't the dinosaurs evolve intelligence, they were around for long enough.
If one posits the idea of an unfolding 'plan', then the question arises of why it took so long?
There is alos the fact of what made the difference. Glenn has addressed the matter of language ability, unshared by any other creature. Is this the trigger? Was it an 'accident' or part of the plan?

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 06:52 AM
 
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I think the reason that it took so long is that is highly developed and needs the right conditions in order to do so. Such as the conditions that we have. The ability for the enlarged cortex to support our intelligence. Also I don't think it can really evolve more than once as when it does the creature with it will take up the role as the 'top dog' taking away the chance of it evolving elsewhere with the way the intelligent attempt to control nature

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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 07:02 AM
 
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Originally posted by Solly
The big question is, if the big event hadn't happened in 65mill bce (alledgedly ) then would intelligence have arisen in the reptillian world instead. Is it the fact of it that is 'programmed' in, or the actual specific lifeform.

Imagine a garden of Eden with two upright lizards...

And the rodent was more subtle than any other creature which God had created...
Solly actually put his finger on the real chance issue. I met Conway Morris in 2000 and had a couple of conversations with him at the Nature of Nature conference at Baylor. He gave a wonderful talk which basically showed how biological systems constantly solve similar problems with similar (not absolutely identical) solutions. That concept clearly argues against Gould's position that if we re-run the tape of life, it will all turn out differently. Conway Morris, argued that if you re-run the tape of life, it will turn out pretty much the same.

That has been my experience with nonlinear systems. There is a deep underlying determinism in mathematical objects (created by chance/random choices) like Sierpinski's gasket or my little screen critters. see http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...09&postcount=8

Unfortunately, when they changed the way they displayed the pictures, all my pictures became urls. Look at the pics as you read that.

Now, in my opinion there is no issue theologically with chance in a biological system. The real issue for God's foreknowledge comes from events like the Chicxulub impact. Such systems do not give us an easy way to predict when or if a meteor will strike the earth. It is the small nonlinear influences on the orbit of an asteroid which make it inherently unpredictable after a few million years.

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 07:12 AM
 
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Although the system you have illustrated via the link would not contan such a 'random' event as chicxulub, yet, once things had settled down, the pattern would go to work again. Nature bounces back.
I am interested in that notion of chance operating with the rules - is this part of Chaos theory? For those who know the term, it seems to have a very perichoretic feel about it. A dance progresses - not line dancing; think of old time ballroom dancing, with many people and a swing band; you don't know exactly where one coupel will be at any one moment on the dance floor, and can't easily predict; but the dancers follow the rules, and should there be a bump, the dance will soon find its balance again. Eventually, the dance will reach it's conclusion.

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 07:17 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Beef_Cream
I found the position interesting. Any thoughts?
Conway Morris is saying that intelligent creatures would likely evolve on any life-bearing planet due to convergent evolution, in the same way that marine creatures tend to evolve streamlined finned shapes and plains herbivores tend to evolve either speed and flocking or armour. But this argument assumes that the pressures which led to the evolution of us are likely to be duplicated in other ecosystems. Sure, there are likely to be environments similar to earth's seas, swamps and jungles, in which the physical pressures that affect evolution will be the same. But the evolutionary pressures that produced us supposedly required the widespread replacement of one specific terrain type with another, which is much less likely to be duplicated. Intelligence may (and did at least twice) arise in predators inhabiting diverse environments, and bipedalism may (and did often) arise in plains creatures who need speed to escape predators or catch prey, and manipulative skills may (and did often) arise in creatures living in trees. But all three in the same creature? I don't think it's an accident that we have ichthyosaurs/dolphins/sharks and moles/marsupial moles/kiwis and bats/birds/pteranodons since their niches have been common and persistent. Human evolution, however, was not the result of a particular niche, but of a combination of several successive ones.

Roy

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 07:22 AM
 
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Human evolution was the result of a combination but is that necessary. How far down a particular niche can evolution go before needing to combine to further progression?

Further had the terrain shift not happened then there may have been a situation like Solly descibed whereby we have reptiles with intelligence evolving, as they are more suited to the conditions.

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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 07:26 AM
 
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Originally posted by rthearle
I don't think it's an accident that we have ichthyosaurs/dolphins/sharks and moles/marsupial moles/kiwis and bats/birds/pteranodons since their niches have been common and persistent.

Human evolution, however, was not the result of a particular niche, but of a combination of several successive ones.

Roy
Granted your first point, are you implying that the second was an 'accident', or am I reading too much into your words?

But the evolutionary pressures that produced us supposedly required the widespread replacement of one specific terrain type with another, which is much less likely to be duplicated. Intelligence may (and did at least twice) arise in predators inhabiting diverse environments, and bipedalism may (and did often) arise in plains creatures who need speed to escape predators or catch prey, and manipulative skills may (and did often) arise in creatures living in trees.
If one set of criteria can produce the forms you mention, ie marine shapes, as the genetic material, adaptable as it is, adapts; then is there not likely to be a 'programmed' response, more complicated perhaps, to several factors, yet still within expectations? Perhaps the point was to limit the rise of such a creature, so that there would not be a clash of two dominant lifeforms.

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 10:11 AM
 
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Originally posted by Solly
Granted your first point, are you implying that the second was an 'accident', or am I reading too much into your words?
No, just saying that the circumstances which led to human evolution are more complex and more unlikely than those for e.g. evolution of large grazing animals. Personally I don't see anything to show that it was an accident, though I suspect you believe otherwise.

If one set of criteria can produce the forms you mention, ie marine shapes, as the genetic material, adaptable as it is, adapts; then is there not likely to be a 'programmed' response, more complicated perhaps, to several factors, yet still within expectations? Perhaps the point was to limit the rise of such a creature, so that there would not be a clash of two dominant lifeforms.
It isn't just humans that have evolved because of unlikely combinations of environmental pressures. Tree kangaroos, kiwis, flamingos, sewer rats, yapoks and penguins have equally odd backgrounds, and the arctic tern's migration is just as unlikely. You could equally well argue that something is trying to limit the evolution of burrowing birds or aquatic marsupials.

Roy

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 10:28 AM
 
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Originally posted by rthearle
No, just saying that the circumstances which led to human evolution are more complex and more unlikely than those for e.g. evolution of large grazing animals. Personally I don't see anything to show that it was an accident, though I suspect you believe otherwise.
If you don't think it was an accident, I certainly don't, unless you left out a 'not' in there.
Personally I don't see anything to show that it was not an accident, though I suspect you believe otherwise.

It isn't just humans that have evolved because of unlikely combinations of environmental pressures. Tree kangaroos, kiwis, flamingos, sewer rats, yapoks and penguins have equally odd backgrounds, and the arctic tern's migration is just as unlikely. You could equally well argue that something is trying to limit the evolution of burrowing birds or aquatic marsupials.Roy
Yet still, there is something different about humans, their ability to manipulate the environment, to overcome disabilities...

What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason!
how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how
express and admirable! in action how like an angel!
in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the
world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me,
what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not
me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling
you seem to say so.

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 10:33 AM
 
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As I saw Glenn mention recently and I point I think is particularly unique. Language, speech. Helps you write stuff like that

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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 10:42 AM
 
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Gould was not in the mainstream when it came to the predictability of evolution. He stressed circumstantial situational oportunism, or something like that(!).

OTOH, Dawkins, the neo-Darwinist argues (and most biologists would take this viewpoint, to an extent) that there all sorts of predictable trends in Evolution: Complexity, intelligence, size to an optimum. But the specifics are un-predictable. Too many variables.

Darwinists were peeved that Gould, in his lifetime at least, had the effect of encouraging design arguments from creationists, who thought his reading of evolution opened the way to the role of the creator/planner, which Gould never believed. Certainly, Gould's anaylsis of the Burgess Shale was a mess.
He never said so, but I think he wished he had never published it.

"...why hasn't intelligence evolved before, or several times?"

Intelligence is quite widespread. I think you are making the assumption (a mistake, IMO) in equating human intelligence with any intelligence. Any animal with a brain has SOME degree of intelligence. And we are the animals who have evolved the highest degree of intelligence, so far.

"And why didn't the dinosaurs evolve intelligence, they were around for long enough."

Well, they did evolve quite an array of different body plans: Enough, arguably to make them look more interesting than all the mammals alive today. That is complexity. Just because there is a trend towards greater intelligence, doesn't mean that evolution will actually go in another direction, because of more attractive "local optima", like spikey back spines!

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 10:51 AM
 
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Originally posted by Solly
If you don't think it was an accident, I certainly don't, unless you left out a 'not' in there.
Oh ^*&!%$%!*%!*&%$. Yes I left out the 'not'. Put me down for a bible-poofreader's job.*

Yet still, there is something different about humans, their ability to manipulate the environment, to overcome disabilities...
Yup, other animals only screw up the environment unintentionally . Have you seen the photo from Fortean Times of a frog overcoming being born with its eyes inside its mouth?

Roy

*cf private eye #1112

 
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Old
  August 5th 2004 , 10:55 AM
 
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Last edited by Solly : August 5th 2004 at 11:02 AM .  
 
 
Originally posted by Benster
"And why didn't the dinosaurs evolve intelligence, they were around for long enough."

Well, they did evolve quite an array of different body plans: Enough, arguably to make them look more interesting than all the mammals alive today. That is complexity. Just because there is a trend towards greater intelligence, doesn't mean that evolution will actually go in another direction, because of more attractive "local optima", like spikey back spines!

Yeh, gimme spikey back spines!! Next æon's fashion accessory.

Have you seen the photo from Fortean Times of a frog overcoming being born with its eyes inside its mouth?
Fortean Times?? Is that where sceptics go for some serious reading after perusing AiG??

 
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