So, one of these identical graphical glitches is a miracle and the rest arent?

This is hilarious TD,

You should have stopped while you were ahead, now you're not only repeating yourself, but anyone reading this can see you were conclusively shown to be claiming something was a miracle that was, in fact, a quite common camera glitch.

And your telling me I have a problem?

Bwahahahaha

You'd have been better off not posting the video, I can't find repeatability for fatima, but I can for this,

Bwahahahaha

Originally posted by Jaecp

So, one of these identical graphical glitches is a miracle and the rest arent?

This is hilarious TD,

You should have stopped while you were ahead, now you're not only repeating yourself, but anyone reading this can see you were conclusively shown to be claiming something was a miracle that was, in fact, a quite common camera glitch.

And your telling me I have a problem?

Bwahahahaha

You'd have been better off not posting the video, I can't find repeatability for fatima, but I can for this,

Bwahahahaha

Let's see.
1. I constantly repeat myself because YOU CONSTANTLY IGNORE WHAT I SAY.
2. It was a claimed miracle on camera that you did not get impressed by which is what predicted in the first place.
3. It accurately answeres your stuipd question about why God is 'camera shy.' So you jsut answerd your own question. If there are any miracles caught on camera you will look for an alternative and favor it. So you just answered your own question and thus refuted yourself.

The only one laughing here is me, because instad of accurately dealing with my arguments you just declare I am wrong and claim victory, whcih is the equivalent of being in a boxing match, tackling the opponent and putting him in an arm bar screaming victory and wondering why no one is agreeing with you. Like I said, you're a predictable ignorant half wit and all you have done and all you will continue to do is ignore things you cannot handle.

I didn't declare you were wrong, I showed that you were wrong.

Incase you missed it, or people just joining us missed it because you spent a half dozen posts blathering about how I fell into your trap by showing your "miracle" to be a sensory glitch, and gave 4 examples of it. You really, really, need to try harder man. This is getting pathetic.

Originally posted by TD

Listen half wit, I am not God so I don't know why He doesn't provide miracles on cameras, my guess is because God isn't concerened about whether or not people like you are impressed, not to mention that even if you were to see a miracle on camera you still wouldn't be impressed. Watch.

Miracle of the sun at Medjugorje

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlPHHl0AjZk

Fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZRXv...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZwhf...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT_Ri...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N78Eg...eature=related

First one has a similar vertical line, lower duration and a different color. The variations have to do with the particular sensor. The third video here even has a black dot in one of the really bright lens flare things. This is common stuff man.

http://www.astronomyforum.net/ccd-im...-spot-sun.html

Notably post 4,

Originally posted by Post 4

The Sun is so bright - that if a camera exposes for the Sun, then everything else in the picture will just be black.
If the camera exposes in such a way that some detail appears in the image - like it has in yours - then the Sun is so bright that it 'overloads' the light sensitive chip in the camera - and in many cameras, the pixels in the area where the Sun would be, simply 'give-up', and don't register anything - hence the black spot.
The same principle applies to many video cameras too - in fact any digital camera (one that uses a light-sensitive chip, instead of film) can show this effect.
The same effect can sometimes happen to the light-sensitive cells in the human eye - and some people who have taken such photos have reported that they could also 'see' the black-spot.

There are many vids and images of this effect, all over the internet.
Unfortunately, some people try to read some significance into this, and ignorance of the process involved has led many to believe it may be something to do with either UFOs or religion.
Even worse - some people have even faked images and vids in order to promote their agendas.

It's a neat effect - but sadly is only that - an 'effect'

News! Machines can get blind spots staring at the sun too.

Second time the charm? I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, don't want this to get pushed off the last page Theo, it was a good attempt though.

Originally posted by Jaecp

I didn't declare you were wrong, I showed that you were wrong.

Incase you missed it, or people just joining us missed it because you spent a half dozen posts blathering about how I fell into your trap by showing your "miracle" to be a sensory glitch, and gave 4 examples of it. You really, really, need to try harder man. This is getting pathetic.



Fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZRXv...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZwhf...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT_Ri...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N78Eg...eature=related

First one has a similar vertical line, lower duration and a different color. The variations have to do with the particular sensor. The third video here even has a black dot in one of the really bright lens flare things. This is common stuff man.

http://www.astronomyforum.net/ccd-im...-spot-sun.html

Notably post 4,


News! Machines can get blind spots staring at the sun too.

Second time the charm? I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, don't want this to get pushed off the last page Theo, it was a good attempt though.

In case anyone missed it jaecp refuted himself. He showed why God is 'camera shy' by doing exactly what I predicted. He showed exactly what atheists do when confronted with miracle claims on camera which is look for and favor an alternate explanation and he's been ignoring that fact ever since. He think he has made a point by showing the miracle could possibly be false and has opted for the alternate explanation shown above but he is so ignorant he doesn't realize that he's been proving my point all along.

TD

Earlier you were talking about the miraculous restoration of amputees. The original miracle at Medjugorje was an appearance of the Virgin Mary. Video evidence of either of these might be impressive (if supported by reliable witnesses; Hollywood proves how easy it is to fake videos). But instead you offer us some strange video of the sun that can be explained by a technical fault? Is this really the best that God can do?

I am intrigued at how localised this supposed miracle might be. That vertical line through the sun, was it visible to everyone present? Was it even visible to the person taking the video? I ask because it looks to me like it remains perfectly vertical even while the camera is swung around - that is, perfectly vertical with respect to the camera. If the camera is tilted to the left, the line tilts with it! That is easy to account for if it a technical fault in the camera, but not for something visible to many people. I am imagining a crowd of people looking at a vertical line that moves as one person moves his or her camera around. Now that would be spooky. Is there any indication that this is what happened?

Are there news reports of a black spot over the sun? It would be interesting to see how widespread it was seen, as this would give an indication of how high up it was. If it was only a few miles up (height a helicopter can fly at), it would be pretty local to the town. If it was a hundred miles up, it should be easily seen in Mostar, a thousand miles and it should have it visible in Athens. If in geosynchonous orbit (26,000 miles) it would be visible in London. Perhaps it was only visible to a small group of people; it might only be a hundred feet up (perhaps only street light height).

Has the vatican been notified about this miracle?

I ask these questions in part because I wonder how far you have thought about this. Are you at all skeptical, or do you just accept any and all claims of miracles?

Originally posted by The Pixie

TD

Earlier you were talking about the miraculous restoration of amputees. The original miracle at Medjugorje was an appearance of the Virgin Mary. Video evidence of either of these might be impressive (if supported by reliable witnesses; Hollywood proves how easy it is to fake videos). But instead you offer us some strange video of the sun that can be explained by a technical fault? Is this really the best that God can do?

I am intrigued at how localised this supposed miracle might be. That vertical line through the sun, was it visible to everyone present? Was it even visible to the person taking the video? I ask because it looks to me like it remains perfectly vertical even while the camera is swung around - that is, perfectly vertical with respect to the camera. If the camera is tilted to the left, the line tilts with it! That is easy to account for if it a technical fault in the camera, but not for something visible to many people. I am imagining a crowd of people looking at a vertical line that moves as one person moves his or her camera around. Now that would be spooky. Is there any indication that this is what happened?

Are there news reports of a black spot over the sun? It would be interesting to see how widespread it was seen, as this would give an indication of how high up it was. If it was only a few miles up (height a helicopter can fly at), it would be pretty local to the town. If it was a hundred miles up, it should be easily seen in Mostar, a thousand miles and it should have it visible in Athens. If in geosynchonous orbit (26,000 miles) it would be visible in London. Perhaps it was only visible to a small group of people; it might only be a hundred feet up (perhaps only street light height).

Has the vatican been notified about this miracle?

I ask these questions in part because I wonder how far you have thought about this. Are you at all skeptical, or do you just accept any and all claims of miracles?

That's not the point pixie. You need to realize that jaecp equated the impressiveness of miracles with whether or not they are caught on camrea then asked why God is camera shy. I told him it's because God doesn't care whether or not people are impressed with what He does and also told him that were jaecp to see a miracle on camera he would not be impressed. I then gave a youtube link of someone claiming to catch a miracle on camera and posted it, knowing full well that jaecp would fail to be impressed and actively search for an alternative explanation and favor said alternative explanation thereby answering his own question as to why God does not show miracles on cameras. Doubtless this will go over your head and I will have to break it down in the span of a couple pages but oh well. So you've activey missed the point. The point was never about whether the miracle had a certain type of quality, the point was getting jaecp to refute himself, which he did, he showed that a miracle caught on camera will both cease to impress and send the atheist into searching for alternative explanations and favor said explanations, and thus, by jaecps own actions, shows the reason why it is pointless for God to show a miracle on camera.

No.

I asked why they get less impressive the more recording devices we have. Back before we had reliable recording devices god was stopping the sun, raining frogs down, having eclipses last longer than are possible, making food multiply. Imagine how many people would become christian with an authentic video of something like that?

Now that we have stuff like cellphone camera's and cities like london we get jesus on a piece of toast and people mistaking graphical glitches for the miracle host. Hence, camera shy. Because we have a correlation between the number of camera's in the world with the frequency and potency of miracles.

You clearly believed you were showing me up with that video and are desperately trying to save face by taking refuge in predicting I would seek out the truth...

Originally posted by TheologicalDisc

No, you need to get real you ignorant half wit, what part of the following do you not understand? That video was a miracle claim just like any other miracle claim. Despite your claims, it was on video and you were not impressed and instead choose to look for and favor an alternate explanation. You did exactly what I predicted you would do, not be impressed, which shows why God would be 'camera shy' because even if you were to see a miracle on camera you would not be impressed because you would be looking and favor an alternate explanation. Not to mention you're once again arguing with yourself since you're equating the impressiveness of something with it being on camera and a miracle is caught on camera and you're not impressed. Like I said in the last thread, you missed the point and refuted yourself like the predictable ignorant half wit you are. Man you are annoying.

I would say this post is utterly absurd except that, given the source, it’s clearly just the usual TD nonsense. The whole point of the youtube video was the supposed ‘proof’ of a miracle...proof that was exposed by the resourceful Jaecp. Apparently TD’s point of the youtube video was that it CLAIMED a miracle, not that it SHOWED a miracle and Jaecp is berated because he was not impressed with the “claim”...as TD predicted. Oh dear me!!!

But, in any event, it was merely another of TD’s examples of the rather tawdry miracles seeking to prove the existence of a supernatural deity...a deity who managed to create the entire vast cosmos without the blink of an eye, but seems to have a problem with delivering large scale believable miracles. We have Fatima put forward with its sun supposedly careening towards earth, ‘seen’ by some who were present and not by others. We have an example of an alleged healed amputee dating back 400 years, although one would ask why god only sees fit to fix one amputee in history...especially in deeply superstitious 17th century Spain. Regrettably, re the claimed evidence, people lie and go crazy quite often.

And we have in the OP an account of the 67th miracle at Lourdes. Sixty Seven!!! Given that Lourdes is visited by some 5 million pilgrims every season 67 ‘cures’since the mid-19th century is not an impressive effort. Furthermore, healing can occur naturally in the body and many would get better even without the virgin's intervention, plus there are well documented spontaneous remissions in any hospital, illnesses that have been misdiagnosed or misreported, psychosomatic illnesses and even outright fraud which helps to explain the ‘miracle healings’ at Lourdes. Why is it that the miracles supposedly performed by the omnipotent, supernatural deity have the same blurry quality as Loch Ness Monster reports and UFO sightings and are never knock-down proof?

Originally posted by Jaecp

No.

I asked why they get less impressive the more recording devices we have. Back before we had reliable recording devices god was stopping the sun, raining frogs down, having eclipses last longer than are possible, making food multiply. Imagine how many people would become christian with an authentic video of something like that?

Now that we have stuff like cellphone camera's and cities like london we get jesus on a piece of toast and people mistaking graphical glitches for the miracle host. Hence, camera shy. Because we have a correlation between the number of camera's in the world with the frequency and potency of miracles.

You clearly believed you were showing me up with that video and are desperately trying to save face by taking refuge in predicting I would seek out the truth...

Yes and you yourself have shown that question to be an ignorant one, since miracles on camera are no different than the miracles off of the camera. In both cases you have effectively proved that you will look for an alternative and favor that alternative, thus answering your own question. God is 'camera shy' because providing miracles on cameras is both unimpressive and pointless as you yourself just proved. Like I said, you refuted yourself you laughable ignorant half wit.
I knew I was 'showing you up' before you even posted a respones to the video because you're an ignorant predictable intellectual cowardly joke. You calling that alternate explanation 'truth' proves my point even further. By your stupid logic any miracle claim of God curing cancer is disproved because there are natural ways for cancer to go away. According to your ignorant and stupid reasoning there isn't even the logical possibility of a miracle happening and another similar event being completely natural(you will refute yourself again).

Originally posted by Tassman

I would say this post is utterly absurd except that, given the source, it’s clearly just the usual TD nonsense. The whole point of the youtube video was the supposed ‘proof’ of a miracle...proof that was exposed by the resourceful Jaecp. Apparently TD’s point of the youtube video was that it CLAIMED a miracle, not that it SHOWED a miracle and Jaecp is berated because he was not impressed with the “claim”...as TD predicted. Oh dear me!!!

Not proof of a miracle, never once did I say it is proof of a miracle. Quote me? oh wait you can't because I never once said nor implied it was proof of a miracle. I now have 3+ ignorant people thinking they have a point based upon their own misrepresentation of my position, typical atheist tactics.

Now how about you answer those questions and if you claim your post answered my questions please show me exactly how and where they answer those questions.

Originally posted by TheologicalDisc

That's not the point pixie. You need to realize that jaecp equated the impressiveness of miracles with whether or not they are caught on camrea then asked why God is camera shy. I told him it's because God doesn't care whether or not people are impressed with what He does and also told him that were jaecp to see a miracle on camera he would not be impressed. I then gave a youtube link of someone claiming to catch a miracle on camera and posted it, knowing full well that jaecp would fail to be impressed and actively search for an alternative explanation and favor said alternative explanation thereby answering his own question as to why God does not show miracles on cameras. Doubtless this will go over your head and I will have to break it down in the span of a couple pages but oh well. So you've activey missed the point. The point was never about whether the miracle had a certain type of quality, the point was getting jaecp to refute himself, which he did, he showed that a miracle caught on camera will both cease to impress and send the atheist into searching for alternative explanations and favor said explanations, and thus, by jaecps own actions, shows the reason why it is pointless for God to show a miracle on camera.

Do you think it was a miracle or not? That bit I put in bold implies that you do. If so, my point stands.

Are you saying that Iam off-topic? Should I start a new thread specifically about this so-called miracle?

Originally posted by The Pixie

Do you think it was a miracle or not? That bit I put in bold implies that you do. If so, my point stands.

Are you saying that Iam off-topic? Should I start a new thread specifically about this so-called miracle?

Not the point.

If I say No it takes nothing away from my point since it shows exactly what atheists do when presented with a miracle on camera.

If I say Yes the point still stands as it still shows exactly what atheists do when presented with a miracle on camera which is to be unimpressed and look for and favor an alternate explanation, which was predicted by me.

You're missing the point. Other people seem to think it was a miracle and the video was enough to prove the point I was making. I do not know nor do I care if it is or it is not one. I needed a miracle on camera, these people thought it was a miracle so it served my purpose and ended up effectively proving my point. To those people and these people here it was definitely a miracle. Like I said, you're missing the point and boarding dangerously close to a logical error by asking if I think it was a miracle or not, since it was a general question about miracles on camera (even talking about London), not a specific question about what TD thinks about miracles.

TD

If I say No it takes nothing away from my point since it shows exactly what atheists do when presented with a miracle on camera.

Except you would be admitting that actually it was not a miracle. So you would then be showing that atheists routinely dismniss claims of miracles that you also dismiss.

If I say Yes...

Then say yes. Have the courage of your faith.

Was it a miracle in your opinion?

I needed a miracle on camera...

Do you believe you found one or not?

Surely this is fundamental to your position. If you think it was a miracle, you have an argument. If you do not, then your position collapses.

Like I said, you're missing the point and boarding dangerously close to a logical error by asking if I think it was a miracle or not, since it was a general question about miracles on camera (even talking about London), not a specific question about what TD thinks about miracles.

Oh, I get it. What you needed was an obviously fake miracle. Then you can get all self-righteous when the evil atheists point out that it was obviously fake. You make a prediction that Jaecp would reject a claim about a miracle, then present an obviously phoney claim about a miracle, which Jaecp quickly rejects, then you get to look all big and clever.

In case people think I am making this up:

Originally posted by TD in post #144

That video was a miracle claim just like any other miracle claim. Despite your claims, it was on video and you were not impressed and instead choose to look for and favor an alternate explanation. You did exactly what I predicted you would do, not be impressed, which shows why God would be 'camera shy' because even if you were to see a miracle on camera you would not be impressed because you would be looking and favor an alternate explanation. Not to mention you're once again arguing with yourself since you're equating the impressiveness of something with it being on camera and a miracle is caught on camera and you're not impressed. Like I said in the last thread, you missed the point and refuted yourself like the predictable ignorant half wit you are. Man you are annoying.

Originally posted by The Pixie

TD

Except you would be admitting that actually it was not a miracle. So you would then be showing that atheists routinely dismniss claims of miracles that you also dismiss.

Wrong, whether or not I believe it is a miracle is not central to my point at all. Answering yes or no takes nothing away from my point and the question never was about what TD specifically thinks about the miracle. Try again.

Then say yes. Have the courage of your faith.

Was it a miracle in your opinion?

I do not know nor do I care and it would do well for you to not quote mine me and engage in logical errors by focusing on irrelevant things.

Do you believe you found one or not?

Surely this is fundamental to your position. If you think it was a miracle, you have an argument. If you do not, then your position collapses.

Me believing it is a miracle is not fundamental to my position at all. My last post proves that whether I answer yes or no my point still stands. As I said before, I do not know, nor do I care if it is one or not. You're engaging in a logical error by concentrating that has nothing to do with the topic at all. Jaecp was talking about general miracle claims caught on camera not about what TD specifically thinks about a miracle.

Oh, I get it. What you needed was an obviously fake miracle. Then you can get all self-righteous when the evil atheists point out that it was obviously fake. You make a prediction that Jaecp would reject a claim about a miracle, then present an obviously phoney claim about a miracle, which Jaecp quickly rejects, then you get to look all big and clever.

No, I don't need an obviously fake miracle, all I needed is a miracle on camera. Whether or not I beleive it is a real miracle is irrelevent to the point, as there are many people that believe it is a real miracle. The question was never 'what does TD think about said miracles' it was just about general miracle claims. Nice logical error.

In case people think I am making this up:

No, your ignorance in logic has you focusing on something that has absolutely nothing to do with the point.

TD

Wrong, whether or not I believe it is a miracle is not central to my point at all. Answering yes or no takes nothing away from my point and the question never was about what TD specifically thinks about the miracle. Try again.

Not so, it makes a big difference. If you sincerely believe the miracle, then you may have a valid point that Jaecp rejects all claims of miracles out of hand.

On the other hand, if you present an obviously fake miracle, a miracle claim you reject, then why pretend that you have achived anything when Jaecp agrees with you?

Originally posted by The Pixie

TD

Not so, it makes a big difference. If you sincerely believe the miracle, then you may have a valid point that Jaecp rejects all claims of miracles out of hand.

All you're doing is repeating yourself. I do not need to sincerely believe the miracle because my point is entirely independent of it I have already explained, instead of refuting this explanation you just choose to ignore it. There are some Christians that sincerely believe in the miracle anyway, so whether or not I personally believe in it is once again not even relevant to the point. Rather than refute this you simply ignore it.

On the other hand, if you present an obviously fake miracle, a miracle claim you reject, then why pretend that you have achived anything when Jaecp agrees with you?

Once again, you seem to be confusing me not caring whether or not it is true because it has nothing to do with the point with presenting an obvious fake miracle. I have done no such thing. I have presented what some people believe to be a miracle which is no different than presenting any other miracle.