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| The Scandal of the Framework |
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The Scandal of the Framework
Published by Yog^sothoth
August 14th 2003 |
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#1
By
skyhog99
on
August 16th 2003, 01:55 PM
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Excellent Article
The view from a preterist...
Assumptions: 1. The Bible is the infallible word of God. 2. Jesus made statements that he was coming back and that it was going to be soon --- within the lifetimes of the then living generation. 3. He didn't come back. A futurist cannot give on #1 and #3 so he must change the meaning of #2 to say "He didn't really mean he was coming back soon; it just sounded like it". OK, let's allow that option to play out. In the discussion they say things like "Paul was limited by the flesh". But it is Paul's words (and Jesus') that we are trying to affirm in #1!!! By allowing that Paul might be limited by the flesh we have essentially refuted #1! Then they might go on to say that it is a book of the Spirit and the plain meaning of the words is not the correct way of interpretation. Is this suggesting that Paul didn't really understand what he was saying but the futurist does??? The positions can be summed up as follows: The atheist affirms #2 and #3 and in the process refutes #1. The preterist affirms #2, denies #3 and thereby affirms #1. He does this by saying that we have misunderstood what "coming" means. He points to the OT and all the other cloud comings of God in making his argument. The futurist affirms #3 but must rework #2 to something other than the plain meaning of "soon" and "generation". He points to passages in the OT where the word "generation" has a different connotation (that it means a moral relationship and not necessarily a 30-40 year period). He is left in the position of having to assume #1 in order to to affirm it. The atheist just laughs. The preterist sighs. The cycle repeats ad nauseum... In Christ, Skyhog99 |
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#3
By
dizzle
on
August 22nd 2003, 11:43 PM
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Matthew, I loved the article!!! Most excellent, and of course, calling me the Fairest Site Owner of them all helped. Your "parable" so hit the nail on the head of what happens in some debates that I will never forget it.
And I loved this: A constant danger in the investigation of knowledge is infinite regression. My favorite example of infinite regression is the (likely apocryphal) story based on an ancient cosmology that supposed a flat earth resting on the shell of a great turtle. When the cosmologist was asked on what the turtle rested, he gave the legendary answer: "It's turtles all the way down."I love that quote!!! I use that phrase a lot much to the puzzlement of some of my listeners... but I say "turtles all the way baby!" |
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#4
By
wryly
on
August 23rd 2003, 12:44 AM
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Re. your comment:
"When your aim is to justify, your assumptions will remain transparent; if they are in error, they will remain so. If your aim is to eliminate error, your assumptions must be examined. Examining your assumptions does not automatically result in error correction, but it makes it possible." This fits with the idea that as long as I'm needing to defend/protect myself and my precious belief I'm effectively prevented from learning. What I haven't gotten my mind around yet is how the "offense" will necessarily promote learning. If what you're saying is a scandal/ offense to my sensibilities, the most natural thing for me to do is to "put up my dukes." Wait, wait -- the offense provides the occasion for me to get beyond myself and risk for the sake of learning -- I choose light over safety. So what might it look like if they hadn't begged the question? |
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#5
By
Mikeb
on
August 25th 2003, 11:43 AM
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Nice article.
I've always liked Popper, and if we were in a civilization building mode, I'd say he had something important to say about our world. Unfortunately, however, we are deep in the depths of Babel and the "Who am I to judge?" is usually preferable to the alternitive "Lock and Load." |
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#6
By
automatthew
on
August 26th 2003, 02:06 PM
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Thank you all for the kind comments.
Skyhog: You've unearthed the obvious inspiration for the Purple Cow fable. I have a profound lack of interest in eschatology, so I tried avoid making the two sides in the fable match the preterist and futurist viewpoints too closely. The process is much more interesting than the topic, IMO. The cycle you describe is, all too often, exactly what happens in eschatological disagreements. It's a shame. I'm sure the futurists have better arguments, and I'd love to hear them. The fence I'm perched on grows uncomfortable. Dee Dee: Glad you liked it. The topic deserves a better treatment, and fortunately Karl Popper has written about thirty. I highly recommend Popper Selections to anyone interested in following up on these ideas. The book I leaned on in the article, The Myth of the Framework, is a collection of lectures and papers intended for a popular audience, but it may not be the best place to start with Popper. Students of philosophy and logic will find Conjectures and Refutations denser, but more flavorful. "Turtles all the way down" is a great image. Yertle the Turtle comes to mind, though the moral is different. wryly: What I haven't gotten my mind around yet is how the "offense" will necessarily promote learning. If what you're saying is a scandal/ offense to my sensibilities, the most natural thing for me to do is to "put up my dukes."That's pretty close to what I was trying to suggest. Offense can, if given the opportunity, reveal our hidden assumptions. Popper mentions in the Myth essay Herodotus's account of an offense contrived by a Persian king: Darius called into his presence certain Greeks [who burn their dead] and asked what he should pay them to eat the bodies of their fathers when they died. They answered that there was no sum that would tempt them to do such a thing. He then sent for certain Indians of the race called Callatians, men who eat their fathers, and asked them what he should give them to burn the bodies of their fathers at their decease. The Indians exclaimed aloud, and bade him forbear such language. [silent edits done to make it pithy] I like this example, because it helps make clear another important point: Our hidden assumptions are not necessarily wrong just because they have been assumed (that would be a version of the genetic fallacy). They may be good assumptions, as I believe was the Greeks' assumption that eating your dead is wrong. But ask a Greek, pre-Darius, why eating Pop is bad form, and you're not likely to get an answer other than "Because it is. Obviously." Post-Darius, those Greeks had to come to terms with the fact that other men not only disagreed, but found the pyre as disgusting as the Greeks found the dinner-table. Just Because was no longer a sufficient answer. |
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#7
By
wryly
on
August 26th 2003, 11:47 PM
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I'm clearly in over my head, but savoring this exchange - enough that I followed the discussion back a thread or two - and found this Popper? quote by automattew:
"Disputants must be aware of their opponents' premises, or at least that the other side has differing premises. I'm not sure that the conflicting premises must be addressed before critical discussion is possible, if addressed means resolved. I don't think that the premises of disputing interpretations have to be axioms, pre-theoretical or presuppositional. Ideally each side recognizes the implicitly conjectural nature of its theory. " I understand that we're talking "head stuff," yet it sure seems to me that the intent of the heart and will predestine the outcome of any conversation. I've experienced conversations with people who have worked very hard to be familiar with their opponents' premises - perhaps even understood them - but the interchange left me wondering if their interests were less concerned with seeking truth than promoting their own version(reduction) of it. "The ideal that each side recognizes the implicitly conjectural nature of it's theory" is certainly that - an ideal. But even if there is some awareness of it, my overriding desire must be seeking the truth or I may succumb to a less Light-filled desire. "Purity of heart is to will one thing." (the K-man) |
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#8
By
automatthew
on
August 27th 2003, 11:01 AM
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wryly said:
I understand that we're talking "head stuff," yet it sure seems to me that the intent of the heart and will predestine the outcome of any conversation.The "intent of heart and will" usually does determine the outcome of discussion. Man is flawed. Popper recognized that we are flawed and did not believe we can be perfected, which plants him firmly in the classical liberal camp--what we now call the conservative. But while he saw men as flawed, he did not consider them hopeless. I would not label Popper as an agnostic or an atheist, but he always reasoned from non-theistic assumptions, sincerely and explicitly. Doing so, he had to presume that the search for truth could be valued by men on their own, without supernatural intervention. If this is so, then occasionally, perhaps very rarely, men can reason together with the intent of seeking truth, even at the expense of their own cherished ideas. Value truth more than your own fractured images of it, and you may draw closer. A nice idea, but I don't buy it. Man has fallen from great height, not raised himself from the beasts. So if the search for truth is not valued by men on their own--if having fallen, man has forsaken all that is good--then man, unaided, will not have any discourse that is guided by any intent other than victory. We cannot reason, because we will not seek truth. But we do seek truth. I have seen others do it, and I think I might have done it a few times. Fallen men, turned away from God and with no intent of turning back, still value truth. Some may have conflated it with their own habits and opinions, but no man thinks his own assumptions are lies. I have no idea why this is. Or rather, I have no ideas worth sharing just yet. Anyway, though the occurrences may be rare, men can reason together and seek truth above their own limited conceptions of it. I've experienced conversations with people who have worked very hard to be familiar with their opponents' premises - perhaps even understood them - but the interchange left me wondering if their interests were less concerned with seeking truth than promoting their own version . . . of it.Two answers: A) Sure they were. They wanted to win, so they found out all they could about their opponents views so as to better fight them. Know your enemy, and all that. OR B) Sure they were. They understood the precious value of bold ideas and were not going to abandon them at the first sign of opposition. Why bother arguing if you don't think you are right? The object of discourse, says Popper, cannot be to gain universal agreement. When universal agreement is the outcome of a discussion, caveat emptor! "The ideal that each side recognizes the implicitly conjectural nature of it's theory" is certainly that - an ideal. But even if there is some awareness of it, my overriding desire must be seeking the truth or I may succumb to a less Light-filled desire.No argument with that. |
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#9
By
omega sequence
on
September 3rd 2003, 03:10 PM
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Re: The Scandal of the Framework
Thanks Yog,
This was an interesting article which has only fueled some questions that have been circling in my mind... So what happens to epistemology when knowledge condescends and comes to your door for tea? Where does the second person of the trinity (Logos) fit into Christian epistemology? This is something that has been gnawing at me for a bit, but I have not been able to make much of a start to it. Has anyone wondered about this, or seen some material on it? Thanks, |
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#10
By
automatthew
on
September 3rd 2003, 05:59 PM
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omega sequence said:
So what happens to epistemology when knowledge condescends and comes to your door for tea? Where does the second person of the trinity (Logos) fit into Christian epistemology?One place to start would be the Philosophical Fragments of Johannes Climacus, made available to us by Søren Kierkegaard. Climacus considers the Greek and Christian answers to the question "How far does the Truth admit of being learned?" Or, How can one possibly come to know the truth without being taught? The Greek, or Socratian, answer is that we must somehow already know, but we have hidden the knowledge from ourselves. The Christian answer is that we must have a teacher. A second thread of answer may start with another publication from Kierkegaard, The Sickness Unto Death, by Anti-Climacus. This religious/psychological study of dispair contains a notoriously obscure description of the nature of self: "The self is a relation that relates itself to itself or is the relation's relating itself to itself in the relation; the self is not the relation but is the relation's relating itself to itself. A human being is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short, a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two. Considered in this way a human being is still not a self.... In the relation between two, the relation is the third as a negative unity, and the two relate to the relation and in the relation to the relation; thus under the qualification of the psychical the relation between the psychical and the physical is a relation. If, however, the relation relates itself to itself, this relation is the positive third, and this is the self." And then a third thread, one I am not yet very sure about: The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes. This book overreaches in its aim, but Jaynes's concept of the nature of consciousness is a bold and useful idea, and his elucidation of a possible origin for our current forms of consciousness may not be too far removed from some truth, even seen from a Christian perspective. |
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#11
By
wryly
on
September 4th 2003, 12:12 AM
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When TRUTH expresses creative thought and a universe comes into existence, TRUTH IS. The Expression of Truth which transforms Nothing into Something is TRUTH, too. So also that aspect/quality of TRUTH through which TRUTH resides/ resonates within those beings created to receive it -- that Aspect of TRUTH is TRUE as well. Sounds triune to me.
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#13
By
adam.naranjo
on
September 6th 2003, 05:39 PM
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Attomatt,
Perhaps I'm being offensive by mentioning this, but I have to. Towards the end of your article you mention the change in the meaning of the phrase 'begging the question'. You're quite right. However, earlier in the article you used the phrase improperly speaking of induction, "But this begs a very important question about the nature of observations. Observations are not neutral, as induction would suggest" When one 'begs the question' they are assuming in there argument part of (or all of) that which they are attempting to prove. Induction begs the question because one cannot argue for the reliability of induction without assuming induction within their argumentation itself. This of course (as you noted in some way earlier) is circular. (the essence of begging the question). However, there is an answer to the slippery slope -- of both induction and skepticism. Kant was on to it in his transcendental reasoning and Cornelius VanTil gave him his answer. The Triune God of scripture gives the preconditions for intelligibility and thereby the foundations for epistemic certainty. As you mentioned: in the end our axioms are held to by faith. However, one 'set of axioms', if you will, gives within itself the preconditions for the intelligibility of the inductive principle upon which all knowledge is based (not [only] inductive logic, but more primitively, inductive/causal principles at work in our most fundamental and 'automattic'* cognition). Thus giving it a foundation upon which it can be justified without going outside of itself and borrowing from another -- a self attesting transcendental. The God of the Bible also gives preconditions for the intelligibility of Laws of Logic, ethics, and belief in the uniformity of nature. Without him also reasoning about such things becomes uncertain and skepticism insures. So then unlike all other epistemic approaches, who cannot offer a completely coherent (not borrowing from another) and self-attesting (axiom which itself gives preconditions for the intelligibility) epistemology, the Christian can. (as long as there not Open Theists or non-Trinitarians -- that's another discussion though) Don't misunderstand what I'm saying as the often used causal argument, "without God you don't have a basis for _______". transcendental reasoning goes far beyond this. With God you don't have a the preconditions that without which reasoning about anything cannot be made intelligible. That may be somewhat vague, but I don't have a lot of time and I'm getting out of here. But, I reckon you know yourself some philosophy. I like your point. However, your point was made at the end of your post. The beginning of your post sounds like a rant about your own philosophical erudition -- no offense. *failing attempt at humor (atomatthew) ------ Adam |
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Last edited by adam.naranjo : September 6th 2003 at 11:07 PM.
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#14
By
automatthew
on
September 9th 2003, 07:37 PM
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Accusations: contended! Eru-whazzat?: denied!
Adam said:
However, earlier in the article you used the phrase improperly speaking of induction No, I didn't, actually. I would not rail against an offense without being very careful not to commit it. You misunderstood my intent, perhaps because the construction of the phrase was similar to the form commonly abused by the ignorant. If so, my apologies. I may have been guilty of unclarity, but not of gross error. While I originally said: Thus induction suggests that observations are the sole foundation of knowledge. But this begs a very important question about the nature of observations. Observations are not neutral, as induction would suggest; they are not passive, happenstance recordings of bland fact. You observe what you are looking for, what you already in some way think is interesting or important.I should, perhaps, have said: Induction assumes that observation is the sole foundation of knowledge. This assumption begs a question in further assuming that observations are neutral, that they are passive, happenstance recordings of bland fact. They are not. Observation consists of seeing what you are looking for, what you already in some way think is interesting or important. Adam also said: Induction begs the question because one cannot argue for the reliability of induction without assuming induction within their argumentation itself.Well . . . yes . . . but that doesn’t really tell us much. We could say the same thing about Cookie Logic, the system in which every statement that contains the word “cookie” is true. Thus the statement, “Cookie Logic is valid,” is true if you assume that Cookie Logic is true. To determine whether Cookie Logic is a valid method of reasoning, it is not sufficient to prove that one argument in its defense begs the question. If we really want to disprove Cookie Logic, we must find a contradiction, either in Cookie Logic itself, or in the juxtaposition of Cookie Logic and the rest of the world. So: “Cookie Monster is a purple cow.” By the principles of Cookie Logic, this statement must be true. Observation of Cookie Monster suggests that Cookie Monster is not purple and does not appear to be a cow (I should note that my usual test of cowness, the udder-check, is precluded by Sesame Street’s restrictive practice of above-the-belt cinematography). Cookie Logic has, alas, been proven to be an invalid criterion. Induction fails to pass the same sort of test. Borrowing an example from Popper, if I have only ever seen white swans, then induction gives me every reason to believe that only white swans exist. If even one black swan exists, then induction has proved invalid as a method of reasoning. True input has produced false output. Adam also said: However, there is an answer to the slippery slope -- of both induction and skepticism. Kant was on to it in his transcendental reasoning and Cornelius VanTil gave him his answer. The Triune God of scripture gives the preconditions for intelligibility and thereby the foundations for epistemic certainty.Let me first say that Van Tillian Presuppositionalism, at least as I understand it, is not incompatible with Popperian critical rationalism. This critical rationalism is exactly the epistemology-without-God that presuppositionalism supposes it to be. Certainty is not possible in this scheme, and without a deity to inform it, unrefuted conjectures are the best knowledge that can be had. So presuppositionalism may be considered a superset of critical rationalism: Without the Informing Word, we are left to build towers of bold guesses. As to there being an answer to the infinite slope, well sure. I’ve got one, too. Are you ready? Here it is: “I’m not falling! It’s true! Really, I’m not!” I will be so vulgar as to quote myself again: But how do we know the axioms are true? You are assuming, but why should I assume what you assume? And should you try to prove your axiom, to justify your claim, you will be jumping right back into an infinite regression. You are better off claiming axioms all the way down.Presuppositionalists must assume a stack of axioms: A) There is a God B) We are His creations C) Existence is unintelligible without assuming A and B I agree completely with A and B, and I suspect C to be true, but they are all still unverifiable assumptions. So far as I can understand, Adam’s answer to the infinite slope is axiom C. Axiom C depends on assuming axioms A and B. Should I choose to assume A, B, and C, I have an irrefutable philosophy. Irrefutable philosophy is kissing cousins with internally-consistent dogmatism. Furthermore, I can’t see how “epistemic certainty” would follow from assumptions A, B, and C. For the jargon-deprived, epistemic means about knowledge. “Epistemic certainty,” therefore, must be something akin to manifest truth: “It’s so obvious! Can’t you see? You must be blind if you can’t see how true it is.” I am willing to stipulate, for the moment, that there is (beyond the azure blue) a God, that the whole universe was His creation, and that the cosmos will not admit of understanding without the acceptance of Creator and creation. So . . . how exactly does this help me with the black swans? I think Adam is suggesting that the Presup position (pun intendend) validates induction as a way of reasoning. I take this to be his explanation: However, one 'set of axioms', if you will, gives within itself the preconditions for the intelligibility of the inductive principle upon which all knowledge is based (not [only] inductive logic, but more primitively, inductive/causal principles at work in our most fundamental and 'automattic'* cognition). Thus giving it a foundation upon which it can be justified without going outside of itself and borrowing from another -- a self attesting transcendental.Pardon me, but did you suddenly start channeling the spirit of a German philosopher? If someone can explain what that is supposed to mean--and do it in clear, simple language--I will attempt to answer it. Anything worth saying is worth saying clearly. Adam finished with these words: I like your point. However, your point was made at the end of your post. The beginning of your post sounds like a rant about your own philosophical erudition -- no offense. Dear Everyone and Adam, I really don’t know what to say. It seems clear that Adam was offering an offense, and yet he said he meant none. I am confused. I would like to take his offense, but I must confess that I don’t understand what it is he was saying. I don’t pretend to have any erudition. Sometimes, just to myself, I pretend that I can write like Chesterton. How am I doing with that so far? Anyway, I always thought that erudition meant using big words like “epistemology” and “self-attesting transcendental” and “erudition”. I must have been wrong. Please explain how I have been ranting about my own philosophical erudition. Everyone’s friend, Matthew |
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#15
By
adam.naranjo
on
September 10th 2003, 06:14 AM
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Well . . . yes . . . but that doesn’t really tell us much. We could say the same thing about Cookie Logic, the system in which every statement that contains the word “cookie” is true. Thus the statement, “Cookie Logic is valid,” is true if you assume that Cookie Logic is true. To determine whether Cookie Logic is a valid method of reasoning, it is not sufficient to prove that one argument in its defense begs the question. If we really want to disprove Cookie Logic, we must find a contradiction, either in Cookie Logic itself, or in the juxtaposition of Cookie Logic and the rest of the world.Wow, If you only knew -- there is more to it than that. Let me respond to this specific statment, "If even one black swan exists, then induction has proved invalid as a method of reasoning.". This argument against induction does not work -- if your trying to prove that induction is invalid --, because when one argues from the fact that they have "observed" a black swan they are in fact 'borrowing', or 'assuming' the use of induction in their reasoning of the arugment against it. This is why induction itself (the inductive prinicple) is what Kant called a transcendental -- a precondition for intelligibility. It cannot be defended or denied without assuming it in the first place, thus proving its certainty, or, proving its absolute necessity (for intelligibility in the case of a transcendental). Thus the one who uses such an argument is assuming the validity of the very thing they are arguing against. But let me say that I agree with the fact that induction is not a valid theory of knowledge -- this, however, does not negate its validity as a way of gaining knowledge. As long as it is butressed by an epistemology that gives certainty and makes induction possible and justified. (the only epistemology that does this is Biblical epistemology) Let me first say that Van Tillian Presuppositionalism, at least as I understand it, is not incompatible with Popperian critical rationalism. This critical rationalism is exactly the epistemology-without-God that presuppositionalism supposes it to be. Certainty is not possible in this scheme, and without a deity to inform it, unrefuted conjectures are the best knowledge that can be had. So presuppositionalism may be considered a superset of critical rationalism: Without the Informing Word, we are left to build towers of bold guesses.No offense, but you don't know Presuppositionalism very well, if at all. Presuppositionalism does not propose to be an epistemology-without-God -- just the opposite. Presuppositionalism unlike critical rationalism holds that knowledge is certain and justified and that all knowledge is 'in Christ' (as scripture tells us). God himself gives the preconditions for intelligibilty and certainty thus answering the age old problem of knowledge. This is put VERY broadly -- perhaps only a specialist in Kantian transcendental reasoning would get it -- but I don't have time to get into it all. Presuppositionalists must assume a stack of axioms:haha, I was trying to sum up a lot so I used highly specified language. I strongly suggest reading Greg L. Bahnsen's (Ph.D)"Van Till's Apologetic" and listening to any or all of the following: Transcendental Arguments 10 Lectures from bahnsen Religious Epistemology - Michael Buttler Ph.D 11 lectures The Great Debate: Does God Exist? Stein VS Bahnsen Does God Exist? A Debate - Tabash VS Bahnsen The Debate That Never Was - Michael Martin VS Bahnsen (Michael Martin never showed up so Bahnesn Lectured) Seminary Course in Apologetics 30 Lectures (graduate level) Challenge to Unbelief - A short critique of unbelief and the CERTAINTY of the Christian faith Mid-Level Course in Apologetics 18 Lectures Van Til's Presuppositional Apologetic 9 Lectures Or Read for free: Science, Subjectivity And Scripture - Bahnsen Or visit THIS PAGE for many more articles from Bahnsen -- including chapters from his book, "Always ready" Presuppositionalists assume more than that, and so do you, and so does EVERY PERSON. And nothing in our experience is intelligible without these assumptions. And therefore - due to the impossibility of contrary (specifically that God, alone, in himself gives the preconditions for intelligibility) these axioms must be true. If not, you are reduced to scepticism and absurdity in all your reasoning. This is putting it very spimply. ------ Adam |